"Upgraded" to Windows 10, Cakewalk performance has suffered greatly

[Midiboy]

On 1/19/2019 at 12:13 PM, Steev said:

Apple Updater is another thing entirely, you can shut it down, but all your Apple software will stop working. Apple's iCloud, only necessary if you are collaborating and sharing files between a Windows computer and a Mac, iCloud is similar to Microsoft OneDrive, but they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The only thing they have in common is they both require setting up and maintaining accounts (as in logging in and Maintaining them and) will BOTH run in the background and send massive amounts of data back and forth if you don't maintain them and take out the garbage every once in a while. And there's also Google Drive which will do the same thing if you're not careful.

 

Two comments...first on your other post that talked about 1803 vs 1809 Win10...1803 is no longer being withheld for MOST people.  The file deletion issue only affected people who relocated their Documents / Music / Video etc. libraries from their default locations.  This has been fixed.

If you still don't have 1809, it is likely you have iCloud installed.  MS is withholding the update for people that have iCloud installed until MS and Apple can figure out why 1809 breaks iCloud.  

Now, the other comments....you said that iCloud is only necessary if you are collaborating and sharing files between a Windows computer and a MAC.  Again, this is not true.

iCloud is handy for people with an iPhone or iPad who takes video / pictures.  Having iCloud on your PC allows you to use File Explorer on your Windows PC to browse any pictures or Video you may have taken with your iPhone / iPad.  (Assuming you have your Apple device set to sync to iCloud). 

This is the easiest way to get a video off your iPhone to your Windows computer.  

I do this all the time as I am also a video editor that uses Vegas Pro 16.  

Keep in mind, even if you have iCloud on your PC, you can FORCE 1809 by downloading it directly from MS site.  It will warn you that you have incompatible software first.  

Edited January 21, 2019 by Midiboy
Update

[Ted Tanner]

I have similar issues.... audio dropout in exact some time increments, slow playback starts.  I'm upgrading memory from 8 to 16 gig.  I've scrubbed all drivers and optimized the PC.  My fingers are crossed, I'll soon know.

Thank all of you for you helpful input and time commenting here.  A smart group.

 

Ted

[Starship Krupa]

6 hours ago, Steev said:

Ever use www.pricewatch.com  to search for the best deals available? It's especially good for searching for new parts and peripherals for matching up aging computers. I found several very good super cheap deals in both PCI and PCIe 16x formats. 

Most impressive for immediate purchase  AMD FirePro V3900 actually packs a decent amount whoop for $25 with free shipping from AccendTech.  AMD FirePro V3900 1GB DDR3 DVI DisplayPort PCI-Express Graphics Video Card  manufactured by ATI. 

 I believe this V3900 is selling for 10x less then I paid for it back in the day when it was new tech.

Requires PCIe 16x slot.. If you don't have a PCIe 16x slot, skip down to Requires PCI slot

This was a very decent entry level video editing card back in the day, certainly not anymore with computers with newer PCIe 16x v3 spec, but for older aging machines it's VERY HIGH TECH! And  it still can outperform any onboard video chips  and renders video at least 5x-10x faster.

I actually owned and installed a V3900 as an upgrade from an nVidea that shipped with it, specifically for video editing with Sony Vegas Pro 4 with my 2012 Dell Opiplex which was upgraded from Windows Vista to Win 7 to Win 10 and still being used today by Niece Emily.

12-sided Dude! Now we're talkin! I didn't know that Pricewatch was still around. Party like it's 1999.

Buying graphics cards for my trailing-edge systems has been my achilles heel. It's always about "will it play Halo?"

I, too am a Vegas baby, still light up my copy of 10 Pro from time to time, so if you say that this pup works a treat with Emily's Optiplex and Vegas and Cakewalk....this info is GOLD.

My main system is an Optiplex 7010. It has a Gen 2 Pci-e slot for a video card. I need to drive a monitor with a DVI port and a Display Port and another monitor with an HDMI port, so the card you showed me would work with my Display Port to HDMI adaptor.

I lean toward nVidia cards rather than AMD because of past troubles with Mixcraft and general lore in the DAW world. However, if you have empirical first-hand knowledge, that counts for a great deal with me.

[Steev]

13 hours ago, Midiboy said:

Two comments...first on your other post that talked about 1803 vs 1809 Win10...1803 is no longer being withheld for MOST people.  The file deletion issue only affected people who relocated their Documents / Music / Video etc. libraries from their default locations.  This has been fixed.

If you still don't have 1809, it is likely you have iCloud installed.  MS is withholding the update for people that have iCloud installed until MS and Apple can figure out why 1809 breaks iCloud.  

Now, the other comments....you said that iCloud is only necessary if you are collaborating and sharing files between a Windows computer and a MAC.  Again, this is not true.

iCloud is handy for people with an iPhone or iPad who takes video / pictures.  Having iCloud on your PC allows you to use File Explorer on your Windows PC to browse any pictures or Video you may have taken with your iPhone / iPad.  (Assuming you have your Apple device set to sync to iCloud). 

This is the easiest way to get a video off your iPhone to your Windows computer.  

I do this all the time as I am also a video editor that uses Vegas Pro 16.  

Keep in mind, even if you have iCloud on your PC, you can FORCE 1809 by downloading it directly from MS site.  It will warn you that you have incompatible software first.  

Thank you Midiboy, you have just cleared up a LOT of misunderstanding at least for me who is still running 1803 who unfortunately for business has to use iCloud and Avid cloud server because, for business purposes, like it or not, I HAVE to use Pro Tools and a Mac. That's not a choice or even a problem, it's a CONDITION!

Using Windows 10 Pro, I had deferred updating to 1809 for 3 months which is coming up in February. And if I don't see any reports of these problems being solved, as much as I don't like to fall behind in any updates, I will defer it again.

 I'm thinking 1809's new found ability to "Hide" updates users "think" they don't want actually translates well into any users having the ability to refuse any updates they "need". The legalese language is very vague and stays in the center of the gray area of understanding, partly to appease a balance of understanding between the control freaks who think they can only survive by having complete control over their computer, and those of us who understand it's not even possible for anyone to have complete control over anything.

 And I hope nobody here takes offence, but I'll get my progress reports from the Windows Insider Program and NOT the Cakewalk/Bandlab User Forums where confusion on such matters reigns supreme when conversations get so far off topic they split off into multiple totally irrelevant conversations (like this) it get hard to tell who's trying to be helpful and who's just going for "YOU ARE WRONG" and "I AM RIGHT" kind of pissing contest that has nothing to do with the original problem.

 Which I believe was concerning sever latency between hitting the space bar to start "playback" and waiting for playback to start a couple seconds later, or several hundred msecs later if you prefer, as the proper terminology for describing latency is always measured in, and then all of a sudden the solution for suggesting and brand new Presonus Quantum Thunderbolt 3 interface, which is actually a Thunderbolt 2 interface, but is suggested to require a Thunderbolt 3 interface that is capable of porting to a USBc port is the easiest solution?

 Well ya know what? Apple will sell you an adapter cable for $29 (us) that will allow you to plug the Presonus Quantum into an existing Firewire port, THAT'S what. And if @Starship Krupa already gets down to 2msec with his ancient outdated Focusrite's and the Quantum can't do better thru the same Firewire port then it's a piece of junk. 

 I'm sorry, but that's just gut busting hilarious to me, and that forces my sense of humor to shift into overdrive. And then when it was implied that I was an amateur who doesn't have a FAQ'in CLUE as to what I'm talking about "DON'T LISTEN TO THAT IDIOT STEEV", that just pushed my sense of humor into "Turbo Boost" and I decided to have some fun with my attackers, being the conversation was already derailed, rape is inevitable so I might as well lie back and enjoy the smackdown and smack back at my earliest convenience.

1/2" = 2/4" = 4/8's of an inch, each measurement is of equal value, and it's get's even more confusing when converting to metrics.

 And when I was talking about sharing files to collaborate between a Windows computer and a Mac, I was referring to the entire "Apple Mac Environment" which includes iPhones and iPad devices.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Steev

[Grem]

@Steev, I have been following this thread the whole time. I do this for the sole reason of I may learn something. I saw no where in this thread that any one suggested you were an idiot. And I did not take some of the responses as a "Pissing" contest. To me it was just a conversation that went in a direction that kept my interest.

 

IIRC, ( and I'm not going back to fact check) no one suggested that the OP get a new Presonus Quantum. The conversation, as I remember, lead into talking about latency, and the Quantum was brought up in the conversation, not as a solution. : )

[Jim Roseberry]

Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus.  It's essentially external PCIe.

Firewire does not (never has... and cannot) provide access to the PCIe bus.

Thus, there is no Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter (not possible).  There is a Thunderbolt-3 to Firewire adapter (which is similar to running a PCIe Firewire controller).

 

Never said Quantum was Thunderbolt-3 audio interface.  (Right now, UA has Thunderbolt-3 on the Arrow... and as an option on Apollo.)

On a PC, Quantum has to be connected to a Thunderbolt-3 controller.

Microsoft only supports "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-3 controllers (there is no "PCIe via Thunderbolt" support for Thunderbolt-2 controllers).

Mac users can use an older Thunderbolt-2 controller... as OSX does support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-2 controllers.

The reason why "PCIe via Thunderbolt" is important; it allows external devices to function as PCIe devices (just like an internal PCIe card).

 

 

 

 

 

[Steev]

1 hour ago, Grem said:

@Steev, I have been following this thread the whole time. I do this for the sole reason of I may learn something. I saw no where in this thread that any one suggested you were an idiot. And I did not take some of the responses as a "Pissing" contest. To me it was just a conversation that went in a direction that kept my interest.

 

IIRC, ( and I'm not going back to fact check) no one suggested that the OP get a new Presonus Quantum. The conversation, as I remember, lead into talking about latency, and the Quantum was brought up in the conversation, not as a solution. : )

Yes Grem, it happened, and it was quite funny actually. Especially around the part where some guy named Jim was claiming to "UPGRADE" and replace his Universal Audio Apollo with a Presonus Quantum, and bragging about it???

Pheww, my bullshit meter got pegged over red line with that one, and I read that post 3 times to see if I was even reading it right, wondering if I was losing my mind or my reading comprehension or both. I don't know if you ever had the pleasure of recording with an Apollo, but...…………..

 In my mind's eye that an equivalent of saying you are upgrading from your Bentley Arnage' T to a Hyundai Elantra, and even though I really like our family Hyundai Elantra quite a bit, who in the name of Zeus's BUTTHOLE would be arrogant enough to try and sell that as an upgrade, and CLEARLY write a claim that I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! ? And then a Troll buddy chimes in and retorts; "Ya know Steev some of us are professionals around here like me (snort, snort) and Jim (oink, oink), and there are reason's why we (burp) and (fart) (fart). so on and so forth.

Too bad you missed it. I'm sure it's still there somewhere unless it was deleted or edited.?? I've been spoken down to as if I was a naughty child and my feelings got hurt is all.. No biggie, as I am, admittedly, at times, often very child like..?

 Nah, not really, I've been involved in writing, recording and making music in this crazy biz since the late 60's, and so I think I may have completely lost my abilities to become offended or even respond to anything like flattery or praise.. It's not that I don't notice, it just doesn't make me particularly angry or happy, it actually makes me LMAO.. ? I swear, I even woke up this morning giggling, and LMAO at times at the thought until my better half Susie, started giggling with me, and finally asked, "OK what's so funny?" And so I gave her my "look" and asked her if she really wanted to know, and she just shook her head, "I don't have the time right not now, I can see an idea forming in your head and I'll wait until the song is finished."  And so Susie drove off to work into the morning's frigid, frigid air, and with the creaking sound of ice crackling under the tires of her Hyundai Elantra she waves and blows me a final kiss goodbye as she drives off to stoke the fires of Hell, oops, I mean she drives off to work......

So what do you think Grem?? Ummm, I'm think'in I'm in a 6/8 mood, I'm still recovering from the flu, so I'll go easy on the vocal chords in G minor, but in a lively tempo of say 134 BPM? I'll start with the piano, NO, geeze what am I think'in, I mean Addictive drums to establish the right 6/8 groove and noodle around on the Fender T Bucket acoustic bass. Them move on to either Stratocaster, Telecaster, or Les Paul maybe... Let see where the Muse takes me.. ?

 

Anyway, everybody has something to learn here, and everybody has something to contribute.. So carry on mates, it's all good..

[Steev]

@Jim Roseberry Pssssst, don't tell anybody but you can get an  Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter on Amazon for $29 FREE SHIPPING!

 

I have personally "Field Tested" this product EVERY DAY for about 2 YEARS NOW with my Universal Audio Apollo 8 Quad plugged in a Firewire port on my Mac.

For Windows Computers I highly recommend "SIIG" PCIe Firewire cards for robust and reliable performance.

[Base 57]

The Thunderbolt (2) to Firewire (800) is available for $34.89 at Staples. I've had one for several years. I used it to connect my Saffire Pro 24 to the integrated  Thunderbolt port in my Asus motherboard. It worked great in Win 8.1 as well as Win 10.

I have since acquired an Antelope Audio Orion 32+ which works fine with their new Thunderbolt for Windows driver. I currently choose to use the USB driver because it allows multiple apps while the Thunderbolt driver only allows one app at a time.

[Jim Roseberry]

Show the $29 Apple Firewire-to-Thunderbolt adapter that allows connecting a Thunderbolt audio interface to a Firewire controller... and explain how it works.

Explain how you can connect ANY Thunderbolt audio interface (on PC) to a Thunderbolt-2 controller and achieve PCIe level performance.

 

When you talk about your audio interface having 2ms record latency, you do realize that's meaningless, correct?

That 2ms of latency is never heard (unless you're monitoring via software... and then it's much larger figure due to round-trip latency).

The 2ms is compensated for upon playback. 

Some audio interfaces don't report their latency correctly; this is why all major DAW applications have a Record-Offset parameter.

 

Regarding Quantum vs. Apollo:

Quantum is by far the better low-latency performer.  

 

 

 

 

[Jim Roseberry]

3 minutes ago, Steev said:

@Jim Roseberry Pssssst, don't tell anybody but you can get an  Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter on Amazon for $29 FREE SHIPPING!

 

I have personally "Field Tested" this product EVERY DAY for about 2 YEARS NOW with my Universal Audio Apollo 8 Quad plugged in a Firewire port on my Mac.

For Windows Computers I highly recommend "SIIG" PCIe Firewire cards for robust and reliable performance.

?

Read the fine print, Steev.

Then come back and explain how it works.

[Jim Roseberry]

OK, I'll explain it for you.

 

That adapter allows you to connected a FIREWIRE device to a Thunderbolt controller.

I mentioned earlier that Thunderbolt is essentially external PCIe.

This is similar to using a PCIe Firewire controller.

 

Firewire does not (can not) provide access to the PCIe bus.

That's what would be necessary to adapt/connect Quantum (or any other Thunderbolt audio interface).

[Jim Roseberry]

If you do use a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter (to connect a Firewire audio interface to a Thunderbolt controller), it will not achieve PCIe level performance.

It's exactly the same as running a PCIe Firewire controller.

[Steev]

13 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

12-sided Dude! Now we're talkin! I didn't know that Pricewatch was still around. Party like it's 1999.

Buying graphics cards for my trailing-edge systems has been my achilles heel. It's always about "will it play Halo?"

I, too am a Vegas baby, still light up my copy of 10 Pro from time to time, so if you say that this pup works a treat with Emily's Optiplex and Vegas and Cakewalk....this info is GOLD.

My main system is an Optiplex 7010. It has a Gen 2 Pci-e slot for a video card. I need to drive a monitor with a DVI port and a Display Port and another monitor with an HDMI port, so the card you showed me would work with my Display Port to HDMI adaptor.

I lean toward nVidia cards rather than AMD because of past troubles with Mixcraft and general lore in the DAW world. However, if you have empirical first-hand knowledge, that counts for a great deal with me.

Well they got some dirt cheap decent nVidea cards too if you prefer, bro. If you got PCIe v 2 I'd look for a FirePro V4900 that'll freak'in ROCK in Vegas Pro 10 and can support up to 3 monitors independently. 1 DVI and 2 Display Ports. It's kind of cool for Cakewalk having your tracks in from of you, mixer on the side, and GREAT for Vegas, it'll run more video plugins, FASTER, MORE BETTER, and you can even monitor full screen 1080p as crisp and sharp as a tack in a big screen smart TV. AMD FirePro V4900 ship with a sizable handful of adaptors included Displayport  to HDMI adapter need for that.

 I found a V4900 on pricewatch not long ago for $35, and I'm sure if your patient, it won't take long for one to spring back up. 

If you see anything nVidia that interests you more just make sure you Google it and or email the vendor first before buying to see if it's supported by Windows 10.

 AssendTech is very good and reliable about stuff like that. And they are the Kings at digging up brand new in the package obsolete shit!! LoL..

 Oh yeah, pricewatch has made me seem like a Bug's Bunny grade genius many times through the years for stuff like this..

[Steev]

1 hour ago, Base 57 said:

The Thunderbolt (2) to Firewire (800) is available for $34.89 at Staples. I've had one for several years. I used it to connect my Saffire Pro 24 to the integrated  Thunderbolt port in my Asus motherboard. It worked great in Win 8.1 as well as Win 10.

I have since acquired an Antelope Audio Orion 32+ which works fine with their new Thunderbolt for Windows driver. I currently choose to use the USB driver because it allows multiple apps while the Thunderbolt driver only allows one app at a time.

Cool that's $15 cheaper then the Siig card I bought from Sweetwater. I've never tried using more then one app at a time with the Apollo, but now you put it on my mind I am going to have to try on my Windows machine which I traditionally use the Focusrite Scarlett on for Cakewalk

 But I'm guessing no, because Pro Tools most likely want to hog the audio drivers and won't allow it on the Mac.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Steev

[Steev]

2 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

If you do use a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter (to connect a Firewire audio interface to a Thunderbolt controller), it will not achieve PCIe level performance.

It's exactly the same as running a PCIe Firewire controller.

Jim, running a PCIe Firewire controller card into a PCIe port IS PORTING DIRECTLY INTO THE PCIe BUSS!! 

It works for me it works for @Base 57 see his comments above, AND NEITHER OF US HAS ANY LATENCY PROBLEMS!

That being said, although I've always liked Presunus well enough and respect it and all, I absolutely LOVE my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 with MKII OctoPre, and I have 12 more wonderful sounding mic preamps then you do, don't I? Yes I do, and that makes my crappy USB interface more flexible then your Nitro burner. HAHAHAHA.

It only get 1.7 msec EFFECTIVE RECORDING LATENCY, shameful I know compared to your killa Quantum.

And it takes an abysmal 6.3 Total Roundtrip msec to send audio coming from my mouth thru CbB and back out to my headphones no matter how many tracks, are running though how many plugins are running and or how many I run thru CbB channel in real-time monitoring with Cakewalk's Input Monitoring thru my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen 2 USB audio interface, with 8 more audio channels fed into it via ADAT, plus stereo S/PDIF feeding  I/O into a Lexicon MX400 multi FX processor ready for finecky singers who insist on too much FX I can bear to be pumped in to their own  headphone mix

Now these specs may completely REPULSE SUPER FLY PROFESSIONALS LIKE YOU, but us mere mortal humans with ears that can only hear between 20 Hz and 20 k/Hz, if we're lucky, CANNOT DETECT 6.3 MSEC OF LATENCY. So we typically don't give a monkey's arse about any reported lower latencies then that, as a rule of shut the FAQ UP about specs already, and lets JAM!

 And OH!!!!!!!!!! Don't think Ican't shave off at least a full msec of these horrible latency reports, I CAN but being I don't know any humans who could tell the difference, I don't have any reason to..

 

SPEED KILLS stability RULES at Delirium Studio!

Edited January 22, 2019 by Steev

[Grem]

14 minutes ago, Steev said:

Jim, running a PCIe Firewire controller card into a PCIe port IS PORTING DIRECTLY INTO THE PCIe BUSS!! 

 

I think you missing the point Steev. Jim is referring to an adapter.

 

And I think his point is that Firewire can not take advantage of all the speed that PCIe has to offer. I may be wrong, but that's how I am reading it. YMMV

[Jim Roseberry]

Steev, you're great at comedy.

I'm going to leave it at that.

 

 

[Suboculis]

On 1/21/2019 at 8:54 AM, abacab said:

Any links? The only reference I see is to the Spring 2018 update.

It's actually allows you to just pause the update for 7 days, not stop it completely. 

[Starship Krupa]

As far as preamps go, I'm kinda surprised to see all this weenie waggin' over built-in ones.

I thought that the "common wisdom" was that you never track anything critical with just the interface's built-in preamps. If you don't stick a Manley or a boutique clone of a Neve strip or something in front of it you might as well not even bother, right? Something with tubes, a transformer, preferably both?

Of course, that's also "common wisdom" about stock plug-ins, and Cakewalk comes with such good-sounding ones that I can't resist using them!

I do hope to one day build a nice mic preamp for tracking vocals. I assembled one for a client from a kit and the thing sounded amazing. Transformer and JFETs.