Issues in automation recording

[apt]

When I record an automation envelope, what I actually draw is something like this: (this is what I see while recording)

But when I stop recording, I get this.

It seems that Cakewalk always does a lot of "trunc" to the recorded envelope.

Usually what we want is like the first image. I have searched a lot but it seems that there is no solution for that yet.

So my request is a switch (maybe) to turn off the "trunc" process and just leave the recorded envelope alone, or an option to change the "resolution" .

Edited August 21, 2021 by apt

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

I am really glad you mentioned this  - I have the same happen to me..I perform some automation with my controller and after the recording...many nodes disappear !  ?

I hope there is a solution ☺️

[Noel Borthwick]

This is completely normal behavior. What you see when drawing is just a preview of the mouse drawing nodes. The actual recorded automation removes redundancy nodes but the net effect will be the same with fewer redundant nodes because they are converted to curves.

There is no  reason to have extra nodes and they would use excess CPU.

[apt]

27 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

This is completely normal behavior. What you see when drawing is just a preview of the mouse drawing nodes. The actual recorded automation removes redundancy nodes but the net effect will be the same with fewer redundant nodes because they are converted to curves.

There is no  reason to have extra nodes and they would use excess CPU.

Thanks for the reply!

But usually it removes so many nodes that the recorded envelopes are not accurate, especially when you want to record "vibrato", or some complex, detailed modulation to the synth. 

I really think it would be better if we can choose to save or not to save CPU. And this feature is already added to the freehand envelope drawing.

I use "manual" vibrato a lot and also make EDM in Cakewalk.  This is an important feature and I really hope to see it in Cakewalk.

[apt]

@Noel Borthwick

Here's a more obvious example. I recorded a vibroto that's not so deep, and the smoothing process completely ruined the vibrato. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by apt

[Terry Kelley]

4 hours ago, apt said:

@Noel Borthwick

Here's a more obvious example. I recorded a vibroto that's not so deep, and the smoothing process completely ruined the vibrato. 

You are trying to get vibrato using a fader that can't move fast enough. Imagine a fader on a mixing board and trying to move it fast enough for vibrato. It's not the right solution for your needs. Add a vibrato plugin in the FX bin then automate the dry/wet where you need it.

I think you've been successful in the past but you've run into the limits of what you can do with a fader.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[Glenn Stanton]

as Terry mentions - a modulation effect would likely be a better tool, or use the wave function on the envelopes - triangle, sine etc to create the vibrato instead of using fader moves.

[Terry Kelley]

44 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

as Terry mentions - a modulation effect would likely be a better tool, or use the wave function on the envelopes - triangle, sine etc to create the vibrato instead of using fader moves.

Wave function - good idea. II need to remember that!

[apt]

@Glenn Stanton @Terry Kelley

Thank you for the advice! 

But, not only faders can do modulations. Actually I use a breath controller. Recording vibrato with a breath controller is a common thing. It gives much more humanity to the resulting sound.

I think this "limit" is truly not necessary. It narrows the use of automation in the level of software. IMO, "Real-world faders cannot move that fast" shouldn't be the reason to do this limitation in a DAW. It would be better if this can be decided by the user.

[Terry Kelley]

At some point the faders need to be faders and not amplitude modulation at a fast rate. But you are certainly free to want them to act in a specific way. Noel's point about processing load is valid (in my opinion) and vibrato should be left to a plugin.

There are just better and more accurate ways to add vibrato to a track. Drawing it on the volume automation appears to me to be a rather tedious method.

Have you tried Reaper or Pro Tools? They might better facilitate your wants.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[apt]

1 minute ago, Terry Kelley said:

At some point the faders need to be faders and not amplitude modulation at a fast rate. But you are certainly free to want them to act in a specific way. Noel's point about processing load is valid (in my opinion) and should be left to a plugin.

One of the reasons why I posted this thread is that, this feature is already avaliable to the free-hand tool while drawing envelopes. It's just been introduced in the 2021.6 update:

    

So I think processing load also shouldn't be a problem. Anyway, it's not a bad thing to let smoothing be an optional process and give more freedom to the user, isn't it?

[Terry Kelley]

Well, you've posted it in the feature request forum so let's see what the developers say about it. They seriously entertain useful features and improvements.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[apt]

1 minute ago, Terry Kelley said:

Well, you've posted it in the feature request forum so let's see what the developers say about it. They seriously entertain useful features and improvements.

Thank you for discussing with me! I've been using Cakewalk for nearly 10 years. I've tried several other DAWs but Cakewalk just fit me best.  There are only a small number of things which I think could be better.  So I decided to post some FR's and bug reports hoping to help make Cakewalk better.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

8 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

This is completely normal behavior. What you see when drawing is just a preview of the mouse drawing nodes. The actual recorded automation removes redundancy nodes but the net effect will be the same with fewer redundant nodes because they are converted to curves.

There is no  reason to have extra nodes and they would use excess CPU.

Hello Noel ☺️

Thank you for confirming that this is expected behaviour - I was thinking I had not set my hardware controller up correctly or it was incompatible in some way.

I also find that having the additional nodes stripped out makes my hardware controller somewhat unfit for the purpose as I bought it for -  to make these automation moves smoother , more accurate and easier to implement ( I had previously drawn them in by hand )

There are certain styles of music where fast detailed automation is essential - EDM as mentioned ( try doing a Future Bass wobble ) - Orchestral Libraries springs to mind also ,  and I use it for live fader rides on lead vocals where it's normal to have a lot of detailed volume automation. 

Personally I would like the option to keep my automation data 'as performed' with my controller rather than arbitrarily truncated because it does make an audible difference.

Kind Regards - Austin

[Glenn Stanton]

you can also use pitch correction like Melodyne to control the vibrato. more expensive versions of it allow for polyphonic and even multiple track effects...

[Will.]

Too lazy to search now: but, I think this was a user request to have less nodes when recording automation. Cakewalk used to record and display nodes on every movement of the envelope. 

Everybody anyhow uses plugins these days for a perfect vibrato. There's really great free Tremelo effect plugins on there that you can use with only 4 nodes on every region its used on. That's why every vibrato you hear in a track sounds so perfect. It's either done with an editor like melodyne or with a tremelo vst plugin on Audio Tracks and of course the modulation wheel of a midi keyboard. 

I hear and understand your argument though. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

9 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

you can also use pitch correction like Melodyne to control the vibrato. more expensive versions of it allow for polyphonic and even multiple track effects...

 

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Everybody anyhow uses plugins these days for a perfect vibrato.

Hi Glen and Will ☺️

I am not using it for vibrato effects !