Andres Medina Posted July 24, 2021 Share Posted July 24, 2021 12 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said: We posted a new early access installer that includes a fix for this issue. @bitflipper @Andres Medina please try this out and let me know if this addresses the issues with I/O's getting changed unexpectedly. AFIK the problem was only localized to track inputs when loading a synth that changes its outputs. Let me know if you still see problems with this fix. I'm confused by the statement that inputs and outputs were mismatched. Are you referring to the outputs to buses from tracks? Those should have been unchanged. Anyway let me know how it works in this release. Wow - fast and efficient!! Thanks Noel. Yes, it's working just fine! I opened an old project and there were not mismatched audio input assignment on Omnisphere. About: "I'm confused by the statement that inputs and outputs were mismatched. Are you referring to the outputs to buses from tracks? Those should have been unchanged. Anyway let me know how it works in this release." - : You are right. The problem only affects the audio inputs on the Omnisphere audio tracks. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andres Medina Posted July 24, 2021 Share Posted July 24, 2021 13 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said: We posted a new early access installer that includes a fix for this issue. @bitflipper @Andres Medina please try this out and let me know if this addresses the issues with I/O's getting changed unexpectedly. AFIK the problem was only localized to track inputs when loading a synth that changes its outputs. Let me know if you still see problems with this fix. I'm confused by the statement that inputs and outputs were mismatched. Are you referring to the outputs to buses from tracks? Those should have been unchanged. Anyway let me know how it works in this release. Wow - fast and efficient!! Thanks Noel. Yes, it's working just fine! I opened an old project and there were not mismatched audio input assignment on Omnisphere. About: "I'm confused by the statement that inputs and outputs were mismatched. Are you referring to the outputs to buses from tracks? Those should have been unchanged. Anyway let me know how it works in this release." - : You are right. The problem only affects the audio inputs on the Omnisphere audio tracks. Thanks again! --- UPDATE: I already checked with Stylus RMX and Trilian, the other two Spectrasonics products that were updated along with Omnisphere, and they are working fine too. Fantastic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitflipper Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 The reason this doesn't affect RMX, Trilian and Keyscape is that the root cause of the problem was a change made only to Omnisphere, in which a 9th output was added. I have no idea why they did that, since you can have at most 8 individual voices in a Multi. It means that when you created your project prior to the Omnisphere update, CW saw that it had 8 outputs and calculated all the other instruments' input source offsets accordingly (think of them as being numbered 1...N internally; inserting a new one throws the whole list off). Then, when you subsequently re-open that same project all the offsets are thrown off by 1 (or the number of Omnisphere instances). Kudos to Noel for figuring out a fix quickly. Know that this was not an easy fix to implement. As a fellow coder, I can testify that our Noel is a frickin' bit-ninja. [EDIT] I was wrong; Trilian was also affected. See below. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andres Medina Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 12 hours ago, bitflipper said: The reason this doesn't affect RMX, Trilian and Keyscape is that the root cause of the problem was a change made only to Omnisphere, in which a 9th output was added. I have no idea why they did that, since you can have at most 8 individual voices in a Multi. It means that when you created your project prior to the Omnisphere update, CW saw that it had 8 outputs and calculated all the other instruments' input source offsets accordingly (think of them as being numbered 1...N internally; inserting a new one throws the whole list off). Then, when you subsequently re-open that same project all the offsets are thrown off by 1 (or the number of Omnisphere instances). Kudos to Noel for figuring out a fix quickly. Know that this was not an easy fix to implement. As a fellow coder, I can testify that our Noel is a frickin' bit-ninja. Agree! Have no idea what the purpose of the 9th out is for... BTW, I double checked Trilian and Stylus, and it seems to me that there are 9 outs now... see the images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitflipper Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Oh, hell, here we go again. Most of my projects contain at least one Spectrasonics instrument. Makes sense Trilian would be affected as well, since it uses the same engine as Omnisphere, which is why you can play Trilian patches in Omnisphere. I didn't see it because I haven't updated Trilian yet. And probably won't. I am not so desperate for a VST3 version that I'll trash dozens of projects to get it. Fortunately, Keyscape was not similarly fuched with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 43 minutes ago, bitflipper said: Oh, hell, here we go again. Most of my projects contain at least one Spectrasonics instrument. Makes sense Trilian would be affected as well, since it uses the same engine as Omnisphere, which is why you can play Trilian patches in Omnisphere. I didn't see it because I haven't updated Trilian yet. And probably won't. I am not so desperate for a VST3 version that I'll trash dozens of projects to get it. Fortunately, Keyscape was not similarly fuched with. @Noel Borthwick's fix was a generic one for both extra ports appearing, and ports being missing from updated VSTi's, so the fix in EA should equally apply to those as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andres Medina Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 34 minutes ago, msmcleod said: @Noel Borthwick's fix was a generic one for both extra ports appearing, and ports being missing from updated VSTi's, so the fix in EA should equally apply to those as well. wow - and it gets even better! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 On 7/22/2021 at 3:34 AM, Andres Medina said: Same here: I opened a project containing Omnisphere, and all the inputs+outputs of the audio tracks of the plugin were completely mismatched. Only happened with Omnisphere. Not sure, but perhaps the last time I opened the project was before updating Cakewalk. ive just logged in, first time in a few weeks..i thought i was going mad until I saw your messages!!!!! Ive just updated Cakewalk and low and behold found this... "Projects saved with older version of Omnisphere open with input ports assigned to incorrect instruments." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 On 7/2/2021 at 4:58 PM, bitflipper said: Could you describe the symptoms of the "output silence/vst scrambling" issue? I just had a bizarre thing happen in this Omnisphere-heavy project: an instance of Kontakt went silent after updating Omnisphere. Weird. I hesitate to bring it up here, as it might be off-topic. The problem turned out to be a routing issue - the Kontakt audio track's input source had been switched from Kontakt to another synth (Zebra2). I can't imagine a scenario in which I could have accidentally done that myself, and the cross-routing had to have occurred within the last hour. hopefully, this is fixed now, I ended up having to swap omnisphere dlls all the time to stop the issue happening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 On 7/25/2021 at 4:43 AM, bitflipper said: The reason this doesn't affect RMX, Trilian and Keyscape is that the root cause of the problem was a change made only to Omnisphere, in which a 9th output was added. I have no idea why they did that, since you can have at most 8 individual voices in a Multi. It means that when you created your project prior to the Omnisphere update, CW saw that it had 8 outputs and calculated all the other instruments' input source offsets accordingly (think of them as being numbered 1...N internally; inserting a new one throws the whole list off). Then, when you subsequently re-open that same project all the offsets are thrown off by 1 (or the number of Omnisphere instances). Kudos to Noel for figuring out a fix quickly. Know that this was not an easy fix to implement. As a fellow coder, I can testify that our Noel is a frickin' bit-ninja. [EDIT] I was wrong; Trilian was also affected. See below. and Stylus RMX we discovered the other day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 So if I'm reading this correct, it seems that Spectrasonics in their wisdom adding a 9th output to Trilian, RMX & Omnisphere with their June update. This caused Cakewalk to as I call in some instances scramble the vsts or silence outputs of other vst instances. I reported this to Spectrasonics, I even sent them a project to test and stated they couldn't find an issue at their end. I thought I was the only one experiencing the issue so relieved that others found the issue and that devs managed to find the problem. I hope CbB has communicated this to Spectrasonics! Thanks for rectifying the issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Borthwick Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 To be fair unless they tested it in Cakewalk with other synths in a project they wouldn’t have seen a problem. Technically though its not normal for instruments to change output counts its not disallowed in VST, but because of the way we handled port routing in Cakewalk (since the 2000’s really) this affected the port numbering. I’ve changed the code to adapt to changes in outputs now so this shouldn’t happen in the future. Of course older versions of Cakewalk software will still have the issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 8, 2021 Author Share Posted August 8, 2021 51 minutes ago, pwalpwal said: did anyone ask them why they did this? there must be some reason I have asked them.. it does mention the 9th output added with 2.7 update but yes why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4th Eden Posted August 8, 2021 Author Share Posted August 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said: To be fair unless they tested it in Cakewalk with other synths in a project they wouldn’t have seen a problem. Technically though its not normal for instruments to change output counts its not disallowed in VST, but because of the way we handled port routing in Cakewalk (since the 2000’s really) this affected the port numbering. I’ve changed the code to adapt to changes in outputs now so this shouldn’t happen in the future. Of course older versions of Cakewalk software will still have the issue. Well thanks for fixing the issue, I thought it was just me who had this issue when I posted this a few weeks ago and I was going to stop creating new projects with any Spectrasonics plugin due to this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitflipper Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 I wondered about this, too. Omnisphere only supports eight voices, so more than eight outputs would seem superfluous. It has spurred much speculation among the Spectrasonics user community. The best hypothesis I've heard is that the 9th output allows you to route the aux bus to its own output (e.g. a common reverb bus), something Omnisphere had been unable to do if you've maxed out the multi with a full complement of 8 voices. This would allow you to tweak the reverb amount even after you've frozen the plugin. That makes sense, although I'd have never thought of it myself because I almost always do my mixing within multitimbral instruments - whether Omnisphere, Kontakt, Superior Drummer or the TTS-1 - and then route the multi to a single stereo pair of outputs. Treating a multi as a single instrument simplifies mixing. You'd have to be a seriously heavy-duty Omnisphere user to actually need that 9th output. However, such power users do exist, and they are important to Spectrasonics because they tend to make soundtracks for high-profile television series such as BBC nature documentaries. That's good PR. My theory is that one of those VIPs asked for the feature and Spectrasonics granted their request, unaware that it might cause problems for the thousands of users who aren't famous composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fogarty Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 On 7/2/2021 at 11:52 PM, bitflipper said: I missed the 2.7 announcement and wasn't even aware of the update (running ver. 2.6 here), so thanks for cluing me in. Yeh, I know, it clearly says "updates available" every time you start it up. Situational blindness, I guess. I have current projects that use Omnisphere, Trilian and Keyscape. I'm going to update them this weekend and see if there are new problems, then post back my results. [EDIT] I couldn't wait for the weekend. Omnisphere is too important to me to not know if it has a problem. Don't know if this is good or bad news, but I just played back a project with 16 patches in a single Omnisphere instance and there were no discernable problems. How could that be bad news? It is if you're trying to replicate a problem. Sorry, I could not. hey there. How did you get 16 patches to load in one instance? Mine is 8 track. (not that I want to - just curious,) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fogarty Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) am just now understanding all this. Am I to run the fix that Noel sent to the other chaps and that will fix things (haven't checked an old project to see if its broken. Could we get a bottom line statement or a new thread telling us what we should do? Will check now if problems. That would be hell. I do save all of my Omnisphere projects and title them by the song so that I can use in other songs but.... CLARIFICATION - just noticed this thread is a few weeks old. Assuming if I am running the latest Cakewalk update I am safe. Edited August 12, 2021 by Michael Fogarty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitflipper Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yeh, you're good. Noel was able to come up with a clever fix, and it works. And no, I don't have a magic formula to squeeze 16 instruments into one instance of Omnisphere. It's 8 tracks times 2 patches each = 16 patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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