Key change mid-song? #musicrelated #sensible

[SteveStrummerUK]

Are there any 'rules' or guidelines to changing key in a song?

Why does it always seem to sound so good?

For example, in John Lennon's Woman - the key change is perfect.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by SteveStrummerUK
Remove and replace brainfart :-)

[Wibbles]

24 minutes ago, SteveStrummerUK said:

For example, in John Lennon's Imagine - the key change is perfect.

Now I've got that bloody awful Gal Gadot video stuck in my head.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Wibbles
My full stops ran away with me.

[DeeringAmps]

There are no rules. Remember, “music theory” is the way those of us in “awe” explain what those that amaze us are doing. 

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[Shane_B.]

LOL! You've been following me around on other forums haven't you Steve? 

I recently bought BiaB on hard drive because my internet connection was so slow and unreliable I couldn't download it. It was freaking expensive! 3 weeks later my internet provider went to a new 5G type network and upped it from 3Mb Download/1.5Mb Upload to 30Mb/20Mb at no extra cost . . . I was happy and pissed all at the same time.

My very first tune in BiaB I tried to do a simple Christmas song. Get my feet wet with something I was familiar with. Starting on the last verse it changes key. The whole song is just in straight chords, no 7th's, 9th's, nothing fancy. I just wanted a simple basic straight open chord strumming with a simple drum/bass arrangement. Nope. Can't do it. After the key change BiaB adds in 7th's turning the song in to some warped sounding blues tune. Imagine the song Silver Bells done in a blues style. That's what it sounded like.

I got attacked by the fanboy's when I asked how to make it stop doing that. Apparently that's how it's supposed to be. If you change key in a song 'technically' you are supposed to follow the original key and add in 7th's when the key changes. That was their excuse. BiaB has settings to force the program not to embellish key changes and chords that way. It doesn't work/it's broken. But tech support won't admit it and just says that's how it's supposed to be.

So there you have it. If you change key in a song, you have to add 7th's. No if's and's or butt's. According to PG Music the creators of Band In A Box. BTW, it doesn't do it if you use their crappy midi files. Only when you try to use their Realtracks which are samples of real musicians. But still, that's the way it's supposed to be . . .

BTW, I didn't realize Imagine changed key? Did we just get snookered? ?

[craigb]

1 hour ago, SteveStrummerUK said:

Are there any 'rules' or guidelines to changing key in a song?

Why does it always seem to sound so good?

For proper accuracy, I believe you should specify intended key changes Steve! ?

(Either that or you definitely never heard a singer we had back in school! ? ?)

[paulo]

2 hours ago, SteveStrummerUK said:

Are there any 'rules' or guidelines to changing key in a song?

I thought you already wrote the definitive answer to that question years ago.?

[Byron Dickens]

17 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

I got attacked by the fanboy's when I asked how to make it stop doing that. Apparently that's how it's supposed to be. If you change key in a song 'technically' you are supposed to follow the original key and add in 7th's when the key changes. That was their excuse. BiaB has settings to force the program not to embellish key changes and chords that way. It doesn't work/it's broken. But tech support won't admit it and just says that's how it's supposed to be.

So there you have it. If you change key in a song, you have to add 7th's. No if's and's or butt's. According to PG Music the creators of Band In A Box. BTW, it doesn't do it if you use their crappy midi files. Only when you try to use their Realtracks which are samples of real musicians. But still, that's the way it's supposed to be . . .

No, you didn't get attacked.

You can't unbake a cake. If the musician on the Real Track played a 7th chord when he recorded his track, then you get a 7th chord. Simple as that.  The only way to get rid of the 7tb would be to re-record the track.

For some reason you seem to be either unable or unwilling to understand that.

[SteveStrummerUK]

31 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

BTW, I didn't realize Imagine changed key? Did we just get snookered? ?

D'oh, massive brainfart there - - - 'my bad' as you American's say.

I meant "Woman" (at around 2:23)

 

[Shane_B.]

Just now, bdickens said:

No, you didn't get attacked.

You can't unbake a cake. If the musician on the Real Track played a 7th chord when he recorded his track, then you get a 7th chord. Simple as that.  The only way to get rid of the 7tb would be to re-record the track.

For some reason you seem to be either unable or unwilling to understand that.

Sorry Steve. ?

@bdickens ... If I have a song that starts in A and I change the key to B and it adds 7th's to everything after the key change, and according to you it's because of the way the samples were recorded, then why can I start the song in B and change the key to C and it plays the B's normal and adds 7th' to everything after the C?

If what you are saying is true then every time I would have BiaB play a B it would be in 7th, no? Why can't it simply play the B after the key change the way it would if I had started the song in B if it's using pre-made samples?

[Shane_B.]

22 minutes ago, SteveStrummerUK said:

D'oh, massive brainfart there - - - 'my bad' as you American's say.

I meant "Woman" (at around 2:23)

Well thank goodness you got the correct Lennon woman song ... ?

Edited February 12, 2021 by Shane_B.

[craigb]

Steve just got completely into the song and imagined a key change.  Simples!  ?

[Shane_B.]

1 minute ago, craigb said:

Steve just got completely into the song and imagined a key change.  Simples!  ?

I really liked his later music. It almost felt like he was going back to his roots. Woman, Watching The Wheels, and a few others were great songs. I can only imagine what he'd be doing now. I'm sure he would have gotten back together with Paul. Too much money to be made not to.

[InstrEd]

33 minutes ago, craigb said:

Steve just got completely into the song and imagined a key change.  Simples!  ?

Steve may be many things but he is not Simples!  

[Bapu]

What's a key (other than Am) and why would I want to change it?

 

I'll (definitely) get me coat.

[InstrEd]

Just now, Bapu said:

What's a key (other than Am) and why would I want to change it?

 

I'll (definitely) get me coat.

Why do you need a coat living in CA?

 Being 9° outside I have to get my coat.   Now if you want to get a sweater or a wind breaker Ed I can live with that ?

Back to the subject at hand "Am is the way" 

[SteveStrummerUK]

16 minutes ago, Bapu said:

What's a key (other than Am) and why would I want to change it?

?

[craigb]

Bapu is an Am-way representative. ?

[paulo]

3 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

I really liked his later music. It almost felt like he was going back to his roots. Woman, Watching The Wheels, and a few others were great songs. I can only imagine what he'd be doing now. I'm sure he would have gotten back together with Paul. Too much money to be made not to.

On the plus side he wasn't around long enough to get desperate and feel the need to release the kind of musical drivel his former cohort resorted to.

Edited February 12, 2021 by paulo

[Bapu]

2 hours ago, paulo said:

On the plus side he wasn't around long enough to get desperate and feel the need to release the kind of musical drivel his former cohort resorted to.

Harsh,

 

but fair.

[Bapu]

2 hours ago, paulo said:

On the plus side he wasn't around long enough to get desperate and feel the need to release the kind of musical drivel his former cohort resorted to.

Poor Ringo, everyone disses on him.