A really basic feature Cakewalk is missing: Clip gain adjusting

[Craig Reeves]

And no, clip automation doesn't suffice. Because while clip automation is fine for adjusting the gain on a single clip, it fails when trying to adjust the gain on multiple clips at once which is very often the case when having to de-ess a stack of multiple vocals by hand. 

I can't think of a single other major DAW that is missing this feature so I would imagine it would be pretty easy to implement. 

And no, adding a plugin to each clip doesn't work because again, it's a stack of 5 vocals I'm trying to de-ess manually.

And no, Process > Apply Effect > Gain doesn't work either because that is destructive and not adjustable.

I'm literally going to have to take this vocal stack to Pro Tools because Cakewalk is completely unable to do this.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Craig Reeves

[Will.]

How new are you to cakewalk? How new are you to mixing? 

Every De-esser has an adjustable gain fader. Grouping the vocals will allow you to treat them as one track. 

FWIW! Right at the top of every channel in the console view -- there's a little knob called "Gain" (aka clip gain) and in track view it's a slider.

Why so angry if you don't fully know something? 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Craig Reeves]

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

How new are you to cakewalk? How new are you to mixing? 

Every De-esser has an adjustable gain fader. Grouping the vocals will allow you to treat them as one track. 

FWIW! Right at the top of every channel in the console view -- there's a little knob called "Gain" (aka clip gain) and in track view it's a slider.

Why so angry if you don't fully know something? 

That's the difference. I'm a professional which is why I'm bringing up issues a professional would bring up using this DAW. And I've been using Cakewalk since 2000. And I'm not stupid, I know what a De-esser is, but very often you want to De-ess vocals by actually lowering the gain of the areas in which there are harsh consonants because a De-esser can only do so much. There is a reason why every other major DAW has this feature and has had it for quite some time. Professionals adjust clip gain all the time.

And yes, each track has a gain knob, but we're talking about PER CLIP. So don't talk down to me when it is clear you don't know what you're talking about. And who said I'm angry? I'm just pointing out areas in which Cakewalk can improve because I am always looking for ways the DAW I've been using my whole career can get better.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Craig Reeves

[Xoo]

Given that clip automation does do gain automation, I'm finding it hard to understand what you're after.  Can you expand?

[Will.]

2 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

That's the difference. I'm a professional which is why I'm bringing up issues a professional would bring up using this DAW. And I've been using Cakewalk since 2000. And I'm not stupid, I know what a De-esser is, but very often you want to De-ess vocals by actually lowering the gain of the areas in which there are harsh consonants because a De-esser can only do so much. There is a reason why every other major DAW has this feature and has had it for quite some time. Professionals adjust clip gain all the time.

And yes, each track has a gain knob, but we're talking about PER CLIP. So don't talk down to me when it is clear you don't know what you're talking about. And who said I'm angry? I'm just pointing out areas in which Cakewalk can improve because I am always looking for ways the DAW I've been using my whole career can get better.

LOL! By trying to enforce the word "Professional" down on me does not help your case. 

But hold your horsey, no one said you were stupid. No one said you didn't know what a "De-esser" is. All i meant was you can ride one in automation. 

Anyway . . . 

If you were such a "professional" you would've known that what I said, still stand firm. The "Gain" knob for each channel - Meaning, each clip -- allows you to automate each clip individually. You also would've known that clip gain automation has been possible in cakewalk for years. 

FWIW: There is also a thing called "Shift" on the keyboard too. When in clip mode, hold down on that shift thing and drag down on the selected area you want to "de-ess." 

Why are you so angry. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, I'm with Kevin - I'm not following this one either, I have to be honest.

Set your Edit Filter to Clip Gain and every clip gets its own envelope. Add points or do a selection and drag that part down as needed. You're only really going to be editing one clip at a time when you're cutting out breaths along a single track, right? But the envelope is there for all of them in the track, and if you mean stacked, then you can multi-select the tracks and the envelopes move all together. This is something I do all the time myself.

Are we misunderstanding what you're trying to do?

Edited October 26, 2020 by Lord Tim

[petemus]

You can also select multiple tracks and edit clip gain envelopes for all of them at the same time, if that helps any. At least you can create the envelope section for the esses easily and then adjust them per clip, if need be...

[scook]

For now if you want to stay in CbB try adding gain plug-ins to the Clip FX Rack.

My current favorite are the free Blue Cat gain plug-ins included in their Freeware Plug-ins Pack II

 

[Will.]

47 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Yeah, I'm with Kevin - I'm not following this one either, I have to be honest.

It's exactly that.

I don't know of other clip gain that works differently in other daws. I own a copy of "Pro tools" and Ableton lite and it's the same thing. 

Why so angry.

[Lord Tim]

Is this what you're after, @Craig Reeves ?  (Genuine question )

[Teegarden]

9 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

And no, clip automation doesn't suffice. Because while clip automation is fine for adjusting the gain on a single clip, it fails when trying to adjust the gain on multiple clips at once which is very often the case when having to de-ess a stack of multiple vocals by hand. 

I can't think of a single other major DAW that is missing this feature so I would imagine it would be pretty easy to implement. 

And no, adding a plugin to each clip doesn't work because again, it's a stack of 5 vocals I'm trying to de-ess manually.

And no, Process > Apply Effect > Gain doesn't work either because that is destructive and not adjustable.

I'm literally going to have to take this vocal stack to Pro Tools because Cakewalk is completely unable to do this.

Apart from the possibilities that CbB provides for your problem (as indicated in the post here above which to me seem more quite good and fast), maybe you should try out the new Celemony Melodyne 5, probably the best de-esser around and a huge time saver for professionals?

[Craig Reeves]

13 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

LOL! By trying to enforce the word "Professional" down on me does not help your case. 

But hold your horsey, no one said you were stupid. No one said you didn't know what a "De-esser" is. All i meant was you can ride one in automation. 

Anyway . . . 

If you were such a "professional" you would've known that what I said, still stand firm. The "Gain" knob for each channel - Meaning, each clip -- allows you to automate each clip individually. You also would've known that clip gain automation has been possible in cakewalk for years. 

FWIW: There is also a thing called "Shift" on the keyboard too. When in clip mode, hold down on that shift thing and drag down on the selected area you want to "de-ess." 

Why are you so angry. 

First of all, YOU'RE the one that first called into question my expertise on matters like this, so I then identified myself as a professional who is not a beginner in production, nor in Cakewalk. Do I know everything there is to know as far as Cakewalk goes? No I don't which is why when I am mistaken about a feature I will correct myself.

But this gaslighting anybody who criticizes Cakewalk from a place of genuinely wanting Cakewalk to be the best it can be, both for our own sake and for Cakewalk's sake as well, is a turnoff and has been mentioned even here why some have gotten fed up and just left for another DAW altogether. 

And riding a De-esser in automation is still using a De-esser when I mentioned before that a De-esser plugin is not always the best or easiest solution. And I am aware of clip automation which I mentioned in my very first post. Bringing down the level of multiple clips on multiple tracks at different bars of the project would be far more difficult than if the feature I suggested were implemented. 

Technically, you could fade clips using clip automation as well. But you don't because it is much easier and quicker to do it by grabbing the top corner of the clip and dragging left or right. That's my point.

Clip automation takes longer to set up and is more cumbersome to use than the feature I suggested. That is the very reason other DAWs have this feature along with clip automation.

I work with people everyday who do not use Cakewalk and this is a feature which I'm suggesting is one almost every one of them use all the time. So this is not some pointless feature nobody would use, especially seeing as to how I literally see people doing this in ProTools all the time. I promise you if any of them decided to try Cakewalk and found that the only way they could achieve the same task was through Clip automation, they would be disappointed.

So yeah, one may be able to come up with a workaround for something Cakewalk is lacking in, but if said task is 10x easier to do in another DAW, that reflects poorly.

Like I said, if people keep leaving Cakewalk to go elsewhere, there ain't gonna be no more Cakewalk. I don't want that and I'm sure you don't either.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Craig Reeves

[Craig Reeves]

10 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Is this what you're after, @Craig Reeves ?  (Genuine question )

That is a valid workaround for my specific issue, but clip automation shouldn't have to be used for something as simple as adjusting the gain on a clip, seeing as to how often it is done.

[Lord Tim]

Can you show us how you do it in ProTools then? I'm failing to see the difference between something here that's literally designed to do what you're saying you want to do, that you're saying CbB is sorely lacking, and how it's done with everything else that does have it.

Again, genuine question here - if there's something super basic that we're missing here, it's worth chatting about so we can pass it on to the Devs to get their take on it, and hopefully added.

Edit: In case you mean "these clips need their gain adjusted entirely to set up the correct gain structure before hitting the track", you can actually ctrl+drag on them from the top of the clip without changing the edit filter to Clip Gain and it'll automatically add an envelope for that clip and change it to where you've dragged, and then kick you back to regular clips mode. I can't see how this could be easier. If you need yet MORE control, you can drop a VST on each clip and adjust its settings on a per-clip basis. Quite a lot of power there!

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Lord Tim

[kc23]

5 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

But this gaslighting anybody who criticizes Cakewalk from a place of genuinely wanting Cakewalk to be the best it can be, both for our own sake and for Cakewalk's sake as well, is a turnoff and has been mentioned even here why some have gotten fed up and just left for another DAW altogether. 

My suggestion would be to try to ignore the ones with this attitude. I´ve seen them not only here but on some other pages, they tend to answer fasy and take it personally. I´ve had a couple of interactions when I think they go over the line... but try for the most part to not pay attention. And, I like to think they are not the norm, usually most other folks with a more down to earth demeanor come and pitch in, in a reasonable and helpful manner (as you may see has already happened in this thread).
 

5 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

Clip automation takes longer to set up and is more cumbersome to use than the feature I suggested. That is the very reason other DAWs have this feature along with clip automation.

I work with people everyday who do not use Cakewalk and this is a feature which I'm suggesting is one almost every one of them use all the time. So this is not some pointless feature nobody would use, especially seeing as to how I literally see people doing this in ProTools all the time. I promise you if any of them decided to try Cakewalk and found that the only way they could achieve the same task was through Clip automation, they would be disappointed.

I fail to see what are you referring to with cakewalk´s "clip automation" vs protools "clip gain". Cakewalk´s clip gain editing IS clip gain, with the feature that is automatable. In my experience they work almost exactly the same, both present themselves as an envelope you drag to meet the desired level. The one thing I think is different is in ptools you also have the "little fader" on the edge of the clip, which sets the level for the whole clip by changing the envelope level. If working with deessing, I would think for that workflow to be more cumbersome for one clip at a time, as you would have to first split at the beginning and then at the end of the "ess" clip, and then grab the little fader to adjust. In cakewalk, you change to clip gain editing once, and then within the clip, select (highlight) the "ess" portion, drag from the top to adjust, move to the next. This works across multiple tracks. To leave clip gain editing just shift-click anywhere in the clip, and to get back you shift-click on the envelope again. Maybe for multiple clips there would have to be a few more clicks but not so many... first make your splits, change to clip gain editing, press F7 (to change to the move tool), cntrl-click to select all your "ess" clips´ envelopes (that is, cntrl-click on the envelopes themselves), and drag on one of them to adjust all. This works across multiple tracks also. I think it may be just one or two clicks more than ptools...?

Perhaps you could be more explicit as to what workflow you want to achieve as it seems it´s not clear enough to know if maybe its already there... or indeed it´s not?

Edited October 27, 2020 by kc23

[Will.]

6 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

That is a valid workaround for my specific issue, but clip automation shouldn't have to be used for something as simple as adjusting the gain on a clip, seeing as to how often it is done.

We've been telling you this forever! Clip gain in ProTools is "Automation" with cakewalk the envelope is just visible and "PT" not. The dynamic waveform gets altered as well as seen in the GIF demostrated  by @Lord Tim It's exactly the same thing. 

 

Lol. "Why so angry" is the slogan of my Record Label.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Will.]

6 hours ago, Craig Reeves said:

But this gaslighting anybody who criticizes Cakewalk 

Technically, you're the one doing that and assuming it. (Guess I better make it clear here that i'm not arguing just trying to explain how it works in Cakewalk.)

We were all trying to help you, by telling you clip gain is possible in cakewalk and that Cakewalk just keeps the envelope visible. 

Why so angry - "slogan."

 

[Will.]

2 hours ago, kc23 said:

My suggestion would be to try to ignore the ones with this attitude. I´ve seen them not only here but on some other pages, they tend to answer fasy and take it personally. I´ve had a couple of interactions when I think they go over the line... but try for the most part to not pay attention. And, I like to think they are not the norm.

Lol. This is wrong of you. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Will.]

2 hours ago, kc23 said:

I fail to see what are you referring to with cakewalk´s "clip automation" vs protools "clip gain". Cakewalk´s clip gain editing IS clip gain,

Yeah. This is the problem. See in PT there's no envelope involved with this. You just highlight a section and lower the volume with the "Little fader." And in Cakewalk we have the envelope - making people believe it's normal volume "Automation."

Cakewalk dynamic waveform with the envelope for "Clip gain," is what we're all referring too. All that needs to be done is, to select the region, "Cut it," select your setting do the crossfades and done.  That's all our friend needs to do. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/26/2020 at 6:09 PM, Lord Tim said:

genuine question here - if there's something super basic that we're missing here, it's worth chatting about so we can pass it on to the Devs to get their take on it, and hopefully added.

This. There is a fundamental issue to consider when posting about adding a feature that "Cakewalk lacks and every other DAW has," which is that if the feature in question is actually implemented in other DAW's and not implemented in Cakewalk, then people who use Cakewalk will have likely found a way to accomplish the task that the feature enables, even if it's in a possibly more cumbersome way.

Therefore, it's natural (although sometimes annoying) for people who use Cakewalk to tell the poster how the task is done in Cakewalk. Please don't be surprised that I'm ignorant of how it's done in Pro Tools or other DAW's.

Especially when the name of the feature in question is so similar to a feature that Cakewalk already has, i.e. literally a button on every track that you can switch to "Clip Gain," that is used to enable editing of gain automation on a per-clip basis, and which I (while assuredly a non-professional) have used to duck plosives. I haven't used it for a choir or background singers, but I'm not surprised that such can be done by grouping/multiple selection, as Lord Tim shows.

So the question of "how is what you're suggesting different from what is already available" seems valid. How is what Pro Tools offers different? Is there a control on each clip that adjusts the clip's global gain?