PavlovsCat

Dead serious guys @Brian Walton, @Starship Krupa, @dubdisciple, @MrFigg, I found your posts/conversations in this thread really useful and didn’t want to just lurk without acknowledging my appreciation. Beyond learning a bit about MTurboReverble, MrFigg's praise for Raum -- which I had on my machine, but never used -- led me to spending time with last night and getting to understand its place in my sonic toolbox (I own Neoverb and regularly use it). So thanks guys. These little conversations you have can be valuable to others, like me.

I would vote against its inclusion in the Hall of Shame. I love Zeppelin and I don't love this cover, but I also don't think it's terrible. Prince, who I think was an amazing performer, was trying to inject a little funkiness into his cover. This cover didn't hit the mark, IMO, but I don't find it terrible. We need to keep the bar extremely low. Therefore, my vote is that this doesn't meet those low standards. But I'm just one vote. Feel free to disagree. I think there's a much worse version out there and we need to keep pursuing the absolute worst of the worst.

The point of my above two posts was to explain things from a developers' perspective and to call for civility towards the developer. I believe that Andrew's posts have been reasonable. I don't think he stated everything perfectly -- but not many of us (including me) do. I think my referring to the practice of exploiting extreme discounts in an unintended manner opportunistic or taking advantage of the system is certainly an accurate description. I don't know why you feel the need to dissect my posts other than that you're looking for an argument. I didn't make any moral proclamations. I just described what was being done in a manner I believe is accurate. Anyhow, I was and still am hoping that people will consider the developer's point of view and treat him with respect, that's all. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with everything that he wrote, just that they should consider it and treat him with respect and not lash out and lose all sense of civility.

I'm pretty sure that you realize how it was intended. It was intended to keep a subscriber who wanted to unsubscribe from leaving. Basically, it was a company making an effort to even sell product at a loss to maintain a relationship with a customer or prospect. As I explained in the earlier post, companies calculate how much it costs to recruit and maintain a customer -- it costs a lot. A company may spend enough money acquiring a customer that the customer is not even profitable during their first year as a customer. Consequently, considering how much it costs to attain a new customer is a strong consideration and then you have a cost to RETAIN existing customers PLUS there is a value / cost for acquiring or losing a direct communications cost with a customer/prospect. What ISW was doing was saying, we'll accept that we're willing to lose money on this transaction in order to maintain a relationship with this person. So when someone shares that discount widely, resulting in a lot of people using it who otherwise would not be using it, it creates an unanticipated problem for the company. that negatively impacts revenue and margins and projections, which can result in things like not being able to meet projections and pay employees' salaries, various expenses, and contractors expected payments (small developers routinely use contractors who are commonly paid a percent or some amount of revenue of the products they worked on). Andrew was being pretty transparent about this stuff in his post, something you rarely see from developers and I think that deserves the community's respect -- even if you did find aspects of his posts not to your liking. The fact that he came here and explained why this practice is a problem for his company, I think, is a respectful and civil reaction to the threads.

There's absolutely nothing about using that code that was illegal. It's just what it wasn't how it was intended to be used, that's all. But whatever your opinion regarding the ethics of using the system and code in a way that was clearly not how it was intended, the point of my post was that we should be able to agree to respect the point of view of the developer and the employees and contractors who made those libraries and plugins.

I think Andrew is being very upfront and candid in his posts. It costs a business a lot of money to (1) acquire new customers and (2) to retain existing customers. Every competent business attempts to manage these areas and develop and maintain direct communications channels with their customers. That is what ISW's email to their prospects and customers represents (AKA email marketing). Companies pay a price to establish these kind of communications channels (e.g., money spent on advertising, sponsorships, influencers, developing content, incentives for current customers to tell other customers about their brand, PR, etc.). Let's say ISW has determined that it costs an average of $150 USD to acquire each new customer, there's also a cost/value to establishing a direct communications channel with prospects and customers and ISW may have determined that email subscribers average a certain amount of purchases over time as compared to non-subscribers. By the time a prospect or customer has subscribed to an email, they've jumped through a lot of hoops that cost ISW $$$ that many other folks that ISW spent money on did not make it through, and ISW doesn't want to lose them / blow that investment. So ISW offers these folks a fantastic deal to stay connected -- to remain subscribed; an 80% discount, in this case. Why? Because it cost a lot of money to get them to that point and if they unsubscribe that investment is basically lost and it would be difficult (AKA costly) to attempt to bring them back after they unsubscribe. So ISW put's out a killer -- some might say, irresistible -- offer to keep them subscribed. That's all there is to it. It's not unethical and it's not stupid or irresponsible. Of course, any company doesn't want that discount abused by folks scamming the system and spread around as a trick to be used in a completely unintended manner. Why? Think of how it impacts the company's revenues. Yes, to someone's arguments, it does result in some people buying who otherwise would not have. Certainly, some of the people who bought at 80% off would have bought at full price or at a less extreme discount, so it does absolutely impact a company's revenue. What occurs when a discount of this kind is used by a wider, unintended audience is that it's simply unsustainable for ISW. It's at a price where they can't adequately pay their employees, bills or pay a reasonable amount to the independent contractors who worked on a sample library or plugin (depending on the pay arrangement) . Another criticism made upon ISW regarded pricing and discounting practices. That criticism was entirely baseless. There are a lot of companies in the sample development and plugin market that engage in unethical pricing practices; I have never seen ISW engage in those kinds of practices and I have known of them since their earliest days. I have consulted in this space -- including to some of ISW's competitors (FTR,I have not consulted to ISW), so I am pretty familiar with ISW and own some of their string libraries. I've also been an outspoken critic of companies that do engage in inflating list prices as a tactic to claim outrageous discount percentages on sales. I've recently called out Waves and Rigid Audio for doing so to the point that their tactics violate regulatory agency rules in various countries (some people will refer to these as laws, and technically, that's not what they are, but they are somewhat similar; where I'm from, our regulatory agency is called the FTC; other countries have similar regulatory bodies for this area that create and enforce these rules, but the reality is, the sample and plugin industry is small enough that these folks fly under the radar of these agencies). ISW is not even close to violating the FTC or other countries regulations from any behavior I've ever observed. They really don't even come close to any ethically problematic pricing practices, so if we're going to be completely honest here, that attack made on ISW was not based in any version of reality. So, before someone attacks me for this post, I'm not moralizing regarding the two ISW threads on this forum with schemes to trick their system. Obviously, no one who participated in those threads had the understanding that they were using the system as intended, they were opportunistically trying to take advantage of the system to get something in a manner that was unintended. I'll leave it up to everyone's personal consciences to decide whether or not they find that is ethical or not. But what I do want to address, as a community member, is that it is wrong for Andrew Aversa to be attacked for his post or for him to be falsely accused of unethical pricing practices. The irony also isn't lost of someone attacking him for moralizing in their post while they're moralizing. We don't need to be another VI-Control with hostile posts of people attacking one another, mob action and a perverse group think sense of what constitutes ethics. Let's shelf that one and just respect that a developer, in this case, Andrew, took the time to communicate with this community, and I think he did so in an upfront and honest manner. I don't think he deserves to be attacked. I think we can do better than that. His bottom line point is that what was going on here was clearly not operating in a manner that was intended by his company, and I think everyone is well aware of that fact. To those who took advantage of the system, you got your deal, he's not taking it away. What he's clearly hoping is that people have enough ethics and empathy to understand the perspective of a developer / business they buy from on why these little schemes can be harmful to companies. You may not agree with everything he says, but I haven't seen him state anything that wasn't reasonable and fair. and I at least think he deserves our respect for coming here and engaging in civil dialogue. Most developers would have quietly removed the code with no communications whatsoever.

@TheSteven I appreciate your adding this stuff. If I'm going to be brutally honest (about my knowledge) I really don't know enough about I mixing and mastering or effects to discern when a free mixing or mastering plugin is good enough to recommend. For my personal use, I tend to start by asking more knowledgeable friends and folks here for advice on tools, look at stuff like Sound on Sound reviews and then demo what people I trust and respect tell me is good to find out what works best for me. Consequently, without that process, I'm incredibly unqualified to weigh in on this plugins. Whereas with sample libraries, I can easily judge sonic quality, things like is the scripting intuitive, are there adequate layers and round robins, etc. Your knowledge and experience with effects plugins is a good compliment to my knowledge of sample libraries. If you want me to add a section to the original post with your recommendations on effects plugins, let me know. I really just hope to create a really helpful resource that is especially beneficial to those short on cash.

I love it. In my wife's words, after overhearing the song on my phone: "What the h#ll is that?" The playing is really good and I take it this was meant to be off the wall fun with one of the schmaltziest tunes ever written. I never heard this before and these guys go into the Hall of Shame with a sense of righteous pride. They've earned their place, and I think it's an honor they'd be okay with.

A first ballot Hall of Shame entrant.

Best cover of "Don't Fear the Reaper" ever. Yes, the singer took some artistic liberties with the melody and lyrics, but that's just part of the brilliance of the artistry. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Csw_oJ7rNHK/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That's really nice, @antler. I understand the name Desk Bell makes it sound like a joke of a library -- I think they should have named it differently to convey that it's not merely a library of straight desk bell samples, which it has -- but it is largely a collection of sound design presets. SoundIron tuned the desk bell samples and made some very creative and interesting sound design presets/snapshots that I find very usable. I find the tuned desk bell somewhere in between a glockenspiel, a kalimba and chimes. I think this is a sweet freebie that does a good job of providing an example of SoundIron's creativity and quality. Consequently, it's a win for freebie hunters and for SoundIron wanting to reach sample buyers to give them a taste of their quality and creativity.

We'll have none of that kind of talk here, Larry. You are a rock star here. You know much. You're like our forum's own Yoda.

I also like the big band on those tracks. I'm a huge jazz fan and spent years playing with a bunch of jazz musicians (I played some jazz gigs and even had a jazz instructor, but, unfortunately, I still never really never played like a good jazz drummer). But Boone isn't even close to up to the task. It's Pat Boone's voice that makes all of those covers so terrible. But a good jazz singer, a Mel Torme kind of vocalist, and some of them, not all of them, could work, but even the best big band can't overcome Boone's schmaltzy big band singer impersonation.

You seem to have figured out my tastes pretty well. How well? I still have two acoustic Tama drum kits from my playing days. Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out.

Even though I only have BFD Eco, I love acoustic drums so much, I still keep listening to the demos. I suppose when I finally get an additional hard drive I'll probably pick up BFD3 , and their London and Maple kits. Do they any expansions people who do rock here just love and recommend checking out?

Back on the original topic, I just saw this story in my Facebook feed and thought it was inspiring. A 78 year old man who has used music to help him deal with depression. I think music has important benefits for our mental health and it is great to learn of stories like this one, where music has helped someone. https://www.musicradar.com/news/78-year-old-techno-producer

From the first video I got 16 right and four wrong and I'm a huge Beatles fan (I'm not naming the songs here to not spoil it for anyone else). Ironically I actually covered one of those songs as a drummer and even played all the instrumental parts on one of the ones I got wrong! But part of the problem is that the drummer redoing the parts plays without the same dynamics and his drums are tuned and treated incredibly different from Ringo's distinctive feel and sound isn't there when the drummer tries to redo the parts . If the drum beats were the actual Ringo tracks without the music, I feel fairly confident that I would have gotten all 20 tracks correct.

That's Boston, right? Does that mean I should start reading your post with a Boston accent in mind, adding remarks like, "wicked smaht post!" "pissa!" and "yah, no" in my head?

I used to be a semi-pro drummer (my first instrument is piano and had lessons for piano, organ, drums and guitar), so I have pretty strong opinions on all things drums. SD3 is, by far, my favorite acoustic drum plugin (I own and use AD2 a bit too). But I enjoy, and regularly turn to NI's Studio Drummer, a KONTAKT drum library I don't think I've ever seen anyone praise. In fact, I'm working on a song right now using it and it fits perfectly. Just like a dedicated drum plugin, it allows me to go in and mix -- it isn't as detailed as SD3, but it does the job -- and it includes drum patterns for those who use them (I sometimes will use them instead of a click track when I'm laying down my first track -- which is commonly piano or rhythm guitar -- but I always replace it with my own drum track). But that is the downside of buying other drum libraries for KONTAKT is that there isn't a standard for the mixer. It would be great if every drum sample library for KONTAKT used the same mixer with similar effects. Of course, some drum libraries for KONTAKT don't include a mixer, so it's important to check that out in advance. The only other drum libraries for KONTAKT I really like a lot are one trick ponies: Majetone Truck Drums, the most Zeppelin sounding drum library I've ever heard (but the mapping is frustrating and it only has one crash cymbal, which uses the same key as the ride cymbal, but at higher velocities and I don't recall if it has a mixer (I don't think it does, but I'm not sure). The other drum library I like a lot is NI Abbey Road 60s Drums. It has a mixer and is pretty nice. It's good for a 60s Beatles or Motown sound. I think I own an extra license for it I need to sell; I bought it before it was included in KOMPLETE. I would have picked up the entire Abbey Road Drum series, but the demos for the others just didn't appeal to me as much as the libraries from Toontrack. I also own three 8Dio acoustic drum kits for KONTAKT, which I would rate as just okay. I picked them up for $15 or $20 (USD) each realizing that I didn't love any of the demos, but thought they might come in handy for something (although in around a year, I've yet to find a use for them). They include a mixer and are well sampled. However they're over-processed and sound like they're from a different era -- I would say the 90s, with way too much reverb, IMO. The GUI for the mixer looks like it was designed in the 90s too. It's functional. Its just not pretty to look at. Here's an example of me using a KONTAKT drum library. I used Abbey Road 60s Drums, a KONTAKT library on the demo I did for Orange Tree Samples for their Evolution Vintage Violin Bass library (a Hofner bass). All of the guitars used are Orange Tree Samples libraries. The Tron is the M-Tron Pro. The Wurly is NI's Scarbee library -- I don't love it, but at the time I recorded this, it was the best Wurly I owned. I've since bought two far superior Wurly libraries. I think the piano is ezKeys Upright Piano. I was going for a McCartney/Beatle-esque vibe.

In all seriousness, it's a similar story here. I've done a very good job of controlling my GAS this year relative to the past couple of years. But the temptations remain. As far as Fab Filter, my friends who really know their stuff keep recommending them, but they're out of my budget range and I have similar plugins and a bunch of simpler tools form Sonible, Focusrite (made by Sonible) and Izotope that I'm only beginning to figure out. Sample libraries tend to be my greatest temptation.

I think when someone in this forum posts that they have enough plugins or sample libraries they should probably be sent a warning. And yeah, I did basically post the same thing. It just goes against our overall data hoarding nature in this group. Bapu is our group's patron saint with the motto "installed."

That's completely, irredeemably bad, but also highly amusing.

I only have the MoogerFooger Cluster Flux I picked up free at Plugin Boutique last month and I quite like it and it runs fine on my Windows 10 machine (if you don't mind iLok) . But I really don't use these kind of effect plugins very much and I already have a bunch of them, so I'm going to skip this deal, but I wanted to share that I like Cluster Flux and it runs smoothly for me.

The unanswered question for that cover is whether or not William Shatner is actually trying to be ridiculously bad or that was his sincere effort to do a good cover.

That is a truly terrible cover, even if you normally love Judas Priest.