PavlovsCat

You were responding to what I wrote and that second license was an essential component of my comparison, not an "irrelevant comment." I was trying to explain why I wrote as you and some others are really focused on the small details of a subscription plan -- and I didn't mean the comparison to be a detailed point by point comparison with a subscription plan, but that the WUP contains some major similarities with a subscription plan -- and I'm not attacking the subscription model. My issue is entirely about Waves lack of full upfront disclosure about WUP prior to a purchase and the second license is essential to my point because the second license is virtually identical to a subscription model -- to the point Husker made, a subscription model means the software stops working when the paid period is over (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the jest of it) -- and that is exactly how that second license, the installation on a second machine, works with WUP.

The additional license, according to their legal copy, ceases to work when the WUP period ends. I don't actually own any second licenses, I just know that from reading their copy.

As I try to disclose, I've consulted to Orange Tree Samples and am friends with Greg, but I've consulted to a lot of developers mentioned here and I never weigh in with my opinions on most of those developers' libraries. But Orange Tree Samples libraries are different. The sample quality and the scripting are incredible. I use OTS libraries in probably 90% or more of my productions and this electric piano library is incredible and just playing it is emotional -- and I, unfortunately, am not a very talented keyboardist. I own probably two dozen electric piano libraries. I grew up the son of a music teacher and we had a Wurlitzer electric piano (which I adore) and a Leslie speaker-- "I am the Walrus" anyone??? But this Rhodes library is the definitive Rhodes electric piano library, IMO. The presets are fantastic and the one this guy who made that video shared is just gorgeous. For anyone into electric pianos, I suggest giving this a listen. And you can write me off for my relationship with OTS and Greg -- heck you'll find my real name in their manuals (I didn't even know until a friend told me, I just watch Greg's videos) -- it's totally understandable, but just give this a listen. I don't even have a close second Rhodes library. This ruined me to those other libraries.

Too late. sides are drawn! Just kidding. It's all good. But I think this topic --that is Waves marketing practices regarding their software -- is quite significant. Don't take my seriousness in discussing Waves practices personally. I used to write on marketing strategies (and may do so in the future, but from a more humorous perspective), so I easily analyze this stuff pretty intensely. I didn't confuse you with another poster. I was merely stating that your good opinion of Waves practice is almost certainly conditional on your plugins working on the 366th day when the updates and support stop. I suspect that if EVERY Waves plugin you own stopped working on the 366th day -- you might feel differently about the WUP you were required to purchase to get them working again. Personally, I own around 50 Waves plugins and I purchased probably the first twenty without even understanding what WUP was and I'm a marketing and strategy professional with a long background in the technology and software who has consulted to more than two dozen companies in this space. So technically, on a pure strategy, factual level, Waves Update Plan absolutely incorporates elements from the subscription model, which is not exclusively the way Adobe implements it, BTW. My major issue isn't with subscription models or Waves having their bastardized subscription model, it's their lack of clarity in marketing their software that they don't disclose these practices upfront, before a consumer makes a purchase. And of course, they're not going to start doing that because it will absolutely result in a lot of people abandoning the sale, that is, not completing a purchase. Any purchases I've made since I've understood WUP is not an issue to me. I'm thinking in terms of ethical marketing practices not my personal scenario, especially now that I am knowledgeable on WUP. @husker I suppose to make clear the real issue of concern, the BIG QUESTIION IS: Did you understand Waves Update Plan before you made your initial purchase or did you only learn about how it work afterwards -- that is, did you only learn after your purchase that you were only getting software with updates and support for one year -- and that the only way to extend that was to purchase another year plan -- and the only way to get that software to run and continue running on a second machine is to purchase an additional one year plan and the day that plan is over, the second machine's license is over and it stops working? You wrote that you don't think WUP is anything like a subscription model, but particularly when it comes to a customer's installation on a second machine, which is identical to a subscription model. You had written that "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up. ," and that is exactly what occurs on the second installation.

Okay. But you do see how people might find Waves Update Plan to be basically a subscription plan? Because it really is a less than straightforward way to do what is basically a subscription plan. I find it borderline deceptive that they sell their software without informing customers upfront. I see that you and the other person that posted in defense of WUP take the position that it's worked for years for you, which is great-- and it's the same for me -- but what about those customers who didn't have that experience. What if you bought 20 new Waves plugins on sale not understanding any of this and on day 366, you get an OS update and your Waves plugins no longer work? You have two options, you can pay for WUP, which actually is a type of subscription plan, or you can repurchase every plugin again. Now, if you have installed those plugins on a second computer, you must keep renewing your WUP to keep them working, which was how you described a subscription model (which is not completely accurate, as you that mostly applies to the software as a service subscription model and there are many other types of subscriptions, but I suppose it's close enough for this conversation).

Come on, one guy misquoted me and now it's turned into the misquote. I never wrote that it's a subscription model, I wrote that there are similarities, which is factual. I'm a business strategist and business writer. Waves absolutely does take elements of the subscription model and apply it to the Waves Update Plan. Specifically, products and updates only apply for one year after purchase and to maintain a second installation the buyer must pay a renewable annual fee. If the buyer fails to pay the annual fee the second installation no longer works to quote you "If Waves were a subscription, you would lose access to use the program/plugin after your year is up. Waves is not a subscription." You actually do lose access to the second installation if you don't pay for the annual Waves Update Plan. Consequently, that aspect of the Waves Update Plan, the second installation, is essentially a subscription model, while the software only receiving updates and support for year one unless the buyer pays for an annual renewal is SIMILAR to a subscription model.

I broke character for my faux "I support WUP " position (a view no one who's not an influencer shilling for Waves has) to give, what I think, is a pretty thorough analysis of why WUP is problematic (above). Take note, @Fleer ! I wish everyone could understand all of this before we they purchased from Waves, then they could make an informed decision if they want to deal with Waves Update Plan, which is a less than transparent scheme that, in many ways, is their substitute for q subscription model that's a lot less honest than using a subscription model upfront. Most consumers new to Waves don't understand what they're getting into before their first purchase; they think Waves operates like other, non subscription model plugin developers. Just read the more high traffic music forum posts.

I disagree. I never stated that Waves Update Plan is exactly the same as a subscription model, I wrote that, it is similar to a subscription plan, but the marketing is much less honest. Most plugin developers provide updates to plugins and support beyond one year at no additional cost, at worst, they do that until there is a major update. Your argument uses the fallacy of composition as a basis -- basically, you're protecting out your single data point to the world; basically, I got mine, I'm good. Consider that if you purchased a Waves plugin 366 days ago and it stopped working, you are on your own. You no longer have tech support, you no longer have updates, unless you pay for Waves Update Plan (WUP). Also consider if you want to install a Waves plugin on two machines. In order to do that you need to pay WUP -- and this is exactly a subscription model without using the name. In order to use your license on a second computer you must pay WUP each year of use. That is, let's say you buy CR8 and you purchase a WUP so that you can use it on two computers . One year from now you are required to pay for another year of WUP or the second installation will no longer work. To use your own words, "Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying." That is precisely what happens with the second license to install their plugin on a second computer when they purchase WUP. So if your plugins are still working, that's great for you right now. But if something happens where they stop working, you need to pay up and many Waves customers on Apple computers are familiar with that situation.

Oops, I should have put this question in the CR8 thread.

+1 on the Steely Dan vibe in the beginning. This, like the last track of yours, is just superb. Half of me wants to take down anything I've shared when I hear your music. It's just so incredibly well played, mixed and a joy to listen to. Kudos. Nothing but respect for your playing, songwriting and production. All top notch.

Wow, this is very creative and original. It's really interesting and off the beaten path -- and I mean that in the most positive sense. Your musical imagination is really impressive, for example when you did the keyboard solo section, I started thinking about Zappa from the Tinsel Town Rebellion album. Your vocals and musical voicings really capture my attention. I really enjoyed this. It is a musical treat.

I really like the vibe of this. Nice job!

All of these people trying to cancel WUP. I for one, oppose the WUP cancel culture!!! Seriously though, with the downsides of WUP, I have three PCs I use for music and Waves' one computer max unless you buy WUP does make their software more expensive than competitors in the long run -- add the fact that if after a couple years of using a plugin you have a problem with the software and need support you need to buy WUP in order to get that help, it does make buying a Waves plugin a lot more of a difficult decision and I'm not sure about this one. I also want to say that I hope no one actually makes buying decisions based on influencers -- someone using affiliate links is merely a salesperson for the product, so NEVER look at affiliate marketers for unbiased opinions, that's the value that your fellow non-compensated (non-influencers in the marketing sense of the term) musicians in these forums offer for free. There are so many compensated parties shilling Waves plugins it's ridiculous. As a marketing professional with ethics, I've ran a major global affiliate program for a globally recognized brand, but there's a real level of deception to influencers and affiliate marketing that really bothers me. The convoluted rationalizations of influencers are pure BS -- the twisted rationalizations really --these are people shilling products for profit no matter how they try to spin it. They are salespeople, not legit reviewers. If you make money off of people buying the product you're doing a fake review of, you're not really a legitimate reviewer anymore than you would call your local car salesperson a car reviewer. Nope, that salesperson is incredibly biased, regardless of the spin they attempt to put on it. When I search YouTube for info on this product, it's just a sea of shills doing fake reviews and it's so incredibly insincere for these people to not state up front that they are salespeople and not legit reviewers. The glowing praise for the products they're shilling is a device to move you to purchase those products through their affiliate links so that they can get a sales commission. That's the end game. I realize that it's a side hustle, again, I've lead a major brand affiliate program that pays big -- and it's sometimes a main hustle for a small group of influencers -- I just wish these folks weren't so deceptive. I am waiting for more regular -- non-compensated folks -- to give their sincere opinion on this one before even dropping $9.99 USD. I suppose I might try a demo of CR-8 and the Cosmos, but it seems like a bit of a time investment to really get a feel for it.

Thanks so much. Everyone here is so kind -- and I've only recently had the nerve to share anything I've recorded recently. It's only a chorus, and I actually screwed up the guitar part near the end, because I'm still working on the song. My tendonitis is pretty bad, consequently, when I was recording the drums I found myself in pain and had to stop. Unfortunately, I'm not able to play through every song in its entirety without having pain that can screw up my timing. So, I basically played around half of the song -- I plan to complete it this weekend -- and played this chorus to my son who really liked it, because, while Foo Fighters songs are super easy to play -- and I love them, especially this song -- I didn't know how my voice would sound, so I wanted to see what my son thought, because he's 16 (17 tomorrow) and pretty critical and, like me, he has a big sense of humor, and usually hears my voice and says, "Stick to the drums." But when I played this for him, he said he was genuinely surprised, which he only said once before, when I showed him my original song I shared in this forum "Every Day," so I thought to myself, if he thinks my voice sounds good, it must not be embarrassing, so I thought I'd share the little clip to get advice and input. I'm always really blown away but how nice everyone is here. I mean, I've been managing digital marketing, including social media, since the 90s, and as we've all noticed, kindness isn't exactly overflowing online. But there's a lot of it in this forum. That's why I enjoy it so much. Possibly also because they don't permit people to get into politics and religion, which sadly, most of society is unable to talk about in a civil manner. Beyond the encouragement I so greatly appreciate, the comments here are really are encouraging on a larger scale. Thanks to every person who took the time to comment. The only downside is it means I'm going to keep making music and sharing! Sorry. Believe me, when I listen to some of the music other people are posting here, part of me wants to pull down anything I've shared out of embarrassment. I'm trying to make sure I click on peoples' names and look for their music too and return the favor. While I obviously can't provide any insights on mixing beyond my personal tastes and very simple observations, I do want to encourage others and enjoy letting them know when they've done a good job.

Man, you guys are all so incredibly helpful and kind. Thanks so much to everyone who posted a comment. I read them all and will be implementing the advice. Regarding a pop filter, I own one, but it would ruin my desk to mount it, so I don't use it. I own some pro mics, but I haven't used them in around 20 years and haven't been able to find them, so I'm using my computer's USB podcasting mic for my vocals. I'm sure any of my old mics would be an upgrade. I will look on Amazon for a pop filter that won't ruin my desk. I sang the chorus around two feet from the mic, so I don't think there was any popping there. But there was during the verse. I own a mic shield but haven't used it yet. I will use it in the future. Promise! Anyhow, you guys are encouraging this old rocker and I greatly appreciate it. I was never a good singer, so I am always embarrassed to sing on this stuff, but after sharing several songs with my voice with friends and here, I'm starting to get over the embarrassment.

Sorry to read this. I try to let people know when I appreciate them, and I'm glad my last correspondence with Time+Space was telling the support rep how helpful and friendly he was and they've always been (I needed to re-download some files for purchases that were several years prior and the support person was as nice and helpful as can be). I will miss Time+Space and want to thank them for many years of excellent service. I wish their employees the best and hope they are successful in their future endeavors.

On a serious note, I find WUP a less than upfront way to push what is pretty close to a subscription model on unware consumers-- and for the second license is q subscription (you have to purchase an annual license and the second installation will no longer work if you do not keep renewing WUP), which is not clearly specified to a prospective customer prior to a purchase. I'm a marketing pro that has consulted to probably two dozen sample and plugin developers and written extensively on marketing strategy, but I only learned about WUP after I purchased a bunch of Waves plugins. It didn't leave a good taste in my mouth and since learning, I generally buy from other developers for the most part. One thing is very clear, Waves has the largest army of influencers shilling for them of any dev I can think of.

Truth be told, so do I.

That's too bad. I've done business with them for decades. RIP, Time Space. Their customer support was always super friendly.

Lovely! You're the man, Larry!

I've written hundreds of original songs, but I'm getting practice playing and singing again 21 years after I stopped playing due to tendonitis by performing and recording cover songs -- I started playing again almost one year ago . This the chorus of me playing my favorite Foo Fighters song, "These Days." I've only completed around half the song and plan to finish up this coming weekend. But I thought, instead of sharing the finished version right off the bat, because people are so knowledgeable here and eager to offer constructive criticism -- I say that being very appreciative, when I posted other songs, people have been really helpful -- I thought I'd ask for advice BEFORE I finished recording the song. FTR, I am watching instructional videos, it's just a bit overwhelming. So I thought it would be most useful to share this before I completed recording the song. FTR, I realize the guitar part is super sloppy and I need to re-record it. I have never really understood how to deal with the noise in a vocal track in between singing parts and a musician friend told me to use a compressor, so I put a compressor on it, but I'm using presets (I'lll try to watch a video on it this weekend). I know very little about production or mixing. I was a semi-professional drummer for two decades whose first instrument is piano. second instrument is organ and third is drums (I took some guitar lessons but with my tendonitis and the fact that I never got very good at guitar, I'm only using sample libraries of guitars on my recordings). So, again, I thought I'd share this work in progress excerpt of the chorus to solicit your constructive criticism and advice on effects to use and mixing. I own a bunch of Izotope pro effects I don't know how to use very well! I hoped the AI would be a lot more helpful than it turned out to be. I have drums, piano, three electric guitars, two acoustic guitars, electric bass guitar, organ, strings -- all KONTAKT sample libraries -- and of course vocals. In addition to compression on the vocal I used Toontrack's ezMix. I can use advice on panning the various instruments and vocals. I've always been told to keep bass in the center. I'm not really sure about anything else in this mix. I'll share my progress as I make adjustments based on input here and from friends of mine all the way up to the complete version of the song, which I hope to finish up this or next weekend if I have the time. I was a good drummer A LONG TIME ago. So I realize that my performances won't impress anyone, and my voice was never good for anything beyond background vocals, so I realize there's nothing stunning about my performances. I'm just enjoying playing again and trying to get better.

Wait, you're saying that as if WUP is a bad thing. Waves is the only developer with WUP. It's an exclusive. It's the special sauce that makes their plugins extra-special good. It's like the colonel's 11 herbs and spices.

What's really great about this is that Waves could have made Cosmos and CR8 into one integrated product, but they didn't. That means you look forward to twice as much WUP! How awesome is that???? Double the WUP enjoyment.

The only sample finder powered by WUP (TM). Take that XLN Audio!

Larry, I'm getting old. I misread the headline, "Soundiron Struck Grand" and thought to myself, "Why would anyone want a grand piano with stuck keys?" So I clicked to learn more and realized that it actually read "struck." Nevermind.