PavlovsCat

@sarine Your post goes from passive aggressive to worse. Two plus decades of managing digital marketing and social media and writing about it tell me responding to a hostile post directed at me isn't a great idea. But here goes anyhow. I'm not against people following rules. If you've noticed, I've never created an off topic thread in this forum. What I enjoy is people freely sharing knowledge and being helpful with others. My issue with the individual you are holding up is that he is consistently extremely rude to others and attacking people, he routinely makes inflammatory posts, he routinely makes contrarian posts and political posts-- when Larry posted a developer out of Poland was giving his revenue for a time to relief efforts in Poland the guy attacked Larry for making the post saying it was political, tried to have it removed and then referred to a statement Putin made, referring to Ukrainian Jews as Nazis and he got even more political and attacked the US, all in the deals forum -- so much for his feigned concerns about off topic threads and posts; I call BS on that. His posts in this thread are attacks and insults towards others. And he, as he does in other threads, then goes on to threaten to have the thread taken down for being off topic. So it isn't that I'm some defender of off topic threads, as you are trying to spin it in your over analysis. I just appreciate people being helpful and kind to one another, and I -- mostly -- like people. Yes, it would be better if everyone used the appropriate places in the forum, but in the final analysis, if people are going to post in the wrong forum but be helpful and kind to one another, I'm good with it. I'm not good with someone coming along and being hostile, arrogant, attacking others and making know nothing points pretending to be an expert while attacking others, as the poster in question habitually does. He is absolutely a serial forum bully and troll and in the end, I find that kind of behavior far worse than off topic -- but well meaning-- stream of consciousness threads. Even more, those kinds of posts are violations of forum policy and, IMO, malicious and off topic is far worse than well intentioned, friendly and off topic. The latter really doesn't bother me and I'm more grateful for people being helpful and kind to one another than I am an@l retentively focused on their threads or posts being off topic. And clearly, the moderators here agree. And that is all there is to it. I hope you can respect that I took the time to respond to your unfriendly attack on me and didn't respond in kind.

That book of yours looks really interesting, @Ric. I think I may give it a read! Thanks for sharing. Just curious, and completely unrelated to your conversation with Philip, as you are a very experienced engineer from the industry, do you use Cakewalk mainly to record your own music or to record others? Just a short thought with regard to Philip's post, as you said you left the music business prior to the Internet (I'm sure you meant web launching, which occurred around 1994), it is entirely possible that the practices Philip mentioned, as they allegedly occurred during the web era, with a completely different generation of record company employees in place. I have heard of some of the things Philip mentioned, but I never worked in the record industry and have no inside knowledge. At best, back in the 90s, I knew a bunch of indie record label owners out of Chicago from labels such as Touch & Go, Pravda, Alligator Records..as well as a friend in management for a major record label and a number of musician friends, some with record deals. But I never had any first hand knowledge of industry practices. But I am a marketing pro and have written on marketing since the 90s too, had a well known and respected publication and major book deal with Wiley and have heard people I've met in the record industry talk about one of the practices Philip mentioned. Again, I have no first hand knowledge, I just wanted to put out there that it is indeed possible that you both could be right, as you were in the industry at different time periods. Peace to all! You both seem like nice people to me.

A Pi Day sale? That seems a bit irrational to me. ...Okay, I'll show myself out quietly.

While I realize someone will probably claim this thread isn't appropriate for the deals forum, I find threads like these super valuable -- and it's for a purchase I only made because of a thread here in the deals forum. I'm going to hold off on the update until someone posts the issues they're now experiencing are resolved. If you could please keep us updated @abacab and @locrian. I'd rather wait until I get the all clear before installing the update. Thanks for posting your issues. It's valuable information.

Why did I click on that? I thought I was smarter than that. And the survey says -- "No. No you're not."

Dead serious, After your post, it really hit me that we should probably start a thread on the forum overcoming physical challenges. Years ago, I used to consult (pro bono, which I've always done for causes I believe in) to an organization for people with disabilities and I would sometimes spend time on the organization's message board (not as part of my consulting, but as something I felt could do some good) trying to encourage people (with disabilities) to play music -- some had very severe disabilities -- and I would post stories about various great musicians who had disabilities. like Django Reinhardt and Tommy Iommi (lost fingers) , Stevie Wonder (blindness), Hank Williams (Spina Bifida) , Toad the Wet Sprocket Randy Gus (osteogenesis imperfecta/brittle bone disease) ,Michel Petrucciani (osteogenesis imperfecta), Rick Allen (arm), Beethoven (hearing loss), Bill Withers (stutter).... It really did inspire people to know what others dealt with and I think that's really valuable to know about challenges others have overcome. As for me, it's really not a big deal. I had a 12 year run playing semi-professionally. Of course, I wish I could play at even half the level I once did. I was born with a hearing loss due to a birth defect in my inner ears and some other hearing related issues as well that result in my hearing declining more dramatically than avg over time, so I never expected my hearing would still be good enough by this age (my 50s) that I could still enjoy playing music at all, so I'm appreciative for what I am able to do.

@Starship KrupaI can play drums for a few minutes before I have shooting pain in my wrists. I've actually learned how not to let it ruin my timing. I was an excellent rock drummer back in the day. But now, if I can even play an entire song without stopping, I feel pretty good. And my great joy in music was always playing with other musicians. If I can find a bunch of musicians good with playing with a guy who hasn't practiced in 20+ years and can only play three minutes before taking an hour break, I'm your guy.

I can't help but sense that our friend is going to come back and complain that this shouldn't be in the deals forum. But this thread is exactly what makes this place so good. A bunch of really helpful people sharing knowledge. It's why I like it here so much. I learn from people, but I also love learning about people. I love that I've just gotten to know a little about Philip and he's shared his music with me and he's very talented. I've already communicated with Erik (Starship Trooper) in the past and he's such a helpful and nice person -- a credit to any online (and I'm sure offline) community, and you too, pwalpwal, sharing helpful videos. Okay, I'll stop myself,. Yes, this really isn't a deals forum thread, but it's a really cool thread, IMO. And I agree, I enjoy the stories and want to hear more and learn more about the others here and how we can share our experiences to help others. Honestly, I'd love to hear everyone's backgrounds. I find it very interesting and considering that the thread itself is already off topic for the deals forum, I don't think it would hurt.

Sincerely, Eirk, you're way too kind. I will do my best to try to do better vocals and if I can pull something better off, I will contact you and I would be absolutely thrilled that you would spend time on anything I've done. I mean, I'm quite sure that you have more talent than me in every area (music and production) and you're offering to help me -- I do have a mix of gratitude and embarrassment and I just want you to understand that I am truly grateful for your kind offer.

Yep, either that or they want us all to be as miserable as they are. What has kept me coming back to this little group through the years is that fact that it is overwhelmingly a really kind group of people. I recently had a couple of people get nasty on me here -- but I thought, I have been part of this community and the old forum for longer than I can remember -- easily a lot more than a decade, maybe a couple of decades. And that kind of stuff rarely happens here. Where as, I used to spend time at KVR and VI Control and you see a lot more bad behavior there. By and large, this place is a group of well meaning people. I've only recently shared some of my original music -- and I was never a singer -- and I stopped playing 20+ years ago due to bad tendinitis in both wrists, so my playing isn't very good -- at best, it's mediocre -- and my vocals are even less good, but I think I was a decent songwriter (but I never had a chance to get my own music heard back when I was a musician, as I only ever worked as a drummer and my attempt at my own band was a flop because we couldn't find a decent lead singer after months of auditions). I've been blown away at how kind and encouraging people have been, I figured no one would listen and at best I might get some tips on mixing and someone liking a song, but the feedback has been far beyond that and people are being kinder about my music than I am about it myself. And I really owe you an apology, @Starship Krupa. Dropped the ball on sending you my project files largely because I'm embarrassed about my vocals and don't think it's worth your time. I have been super grateful for your offer and perhaps, when I find I have a vocal that's even close to worthy of you spending time mixing a song, I will ask for your consideration. But I think my vocals on that Beatles' cover are embarrassingly bad to the point where I think I'm going to take it down from SoundCloud and I don't want you wasting your time on it -- and again, you don't know how complimented I am and grateful that you extended that offer. It really encouraged me.

@JeslanYou hit the nail on the head. Just about every post I've seen from that individual lately looks a lot like a troll, whether he's attacking devs contributing to Ukraine and parroting Putin propaganda or talking about the music industry. I don't think he's on the level, that is, I think he's looking for trouble and deliberately makes efforts to be abrasive with people and to be a contrarian, often making inflammatory posts with points that make no sense, but only seem formulated to oppose others. He doesn't reply when asked how he's acquired his expertise, while people he insults have shared a good deal of knowledge and relevant personal experiences.

I meant "you know that I respect you" not yourself! Darn autocorrect, ruining compliments. My favorite was a few years ago, I was sending an email -- it was to a professional contact and I wrote it on my phone and fortunately I looked it over because instead of "regards Peter", it read, "Regardless, Peter." And honestly, I thought "Regardless, Peter" was way better than. "Regards," but not reallyappropriate for business communications. Regardless, Peter

You know a lot more about mixing/production than I do and you know that I respect you, so I'm going to take your advice. Thanks for the helpful advice @mibby. It's appreciated when someone takes the time to go out of their way to make a point like that -- as I otherwise was going to pass on this.

That is indeed some very good advice, Philip. I spent 12 years playing professionally as a drummer. My first instrument is piano and I had started playing piano (lessons) by 3 1/2 and wrote my first song by 4 1/2. During the mid 90s, I quit a popular regional rock band I played in that got a good deal of notoriety. The two top Chicago rock newspaper critics predicted the band would be the next breakthrough band out of Chicago. Being in that band got my more recognition as a musician than I'd ever known . I had seen a show with two of my bandmates with Jimmy Chamberlain (Smashing Pumpkins) and after his set Jimmy walks up to me in front of my band mates and says he's followed me in two bands and I'm one of his favorite drummers...out of Chicago (okay, not as good as saying favorite drummers period -- he had to qualify it by adding "out of Chicago," but I'll take it). But the band's leader is a complete egomaniac and control freak and wants to start doing lipsynced shows, I quit the band. What's the point? I love playing music, I'm not an actor. I play some demos of my original songs to some musicians I've played with in bands and get a keyboardist, guitarist and bassist to be part of a band focused on playing my songs. I place an ad in a local music paper with my stage name and mentioning the bands I've played in stating I'm forming a new band and we're in need of a lead singer. I end up getting calls from a couple of very talented female rockers out of Chicago who knew me from one of the bands I played in and try to persuade me to meet with their bands and see how things go. One of them, whose band, Veruca Salt, was just signed to Geffen Records, tells me that she's seen me play, thinks I'd be a major upgrade for the band from the previous drummer they just fired for a drug problem and they need a new drummer ASAP and wants me to meet with the band. She (her name is Louise Post) stays in contact with me for the rest of the month telling me, "This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. " I eventually decline the opportunity to meet with the band for a variety of reasons. My own band, after three dozen auditions couldn't find a decent lead singer, and after playing with the bassist in my band in another band at a festival where he was high on crack and was caught making sexual remarks to a child, I threw the towel in on doing an original band, but by that time Veruca Salt had already found a drummer. My point? It's really difficult to make it in the music business. If you have an opportunity, you need to seize it. Every piece of advice @Philip G Huntoffered above rang true to me, even though I was out Chicago-- a big city -- was with a top Chicago booking agent with two bands, knew heads of a bunch of Chicago record labels pretty well, like Touch and Go (Corey Rusk) and Prada (Ken Goodman) to the point that we could hang out at a club and watch a band, but navigating leading my own band, the right personnel, being at the right place at the right time, doing the right promotions, having the right look -- there are a lot of factors. And the reality is, success at a major level, even in one of the US's largest city was a lot less likely when not living in LA (or NYC). Now that was all back in the 90s. The Internet and social media has, in many ways made things easier if you're brilliant at promotion, and have music that will strongly resonate with a large audience, but on the other hand, things aren't like the 90s in terms of getting signed, success or what it means to be signed. And making it big without a big promotions team behind you is possible, but it's extremely rare. To Philip's points, you need to be realistic about your music and you also need to be realistic. If your music or production isn't up to the task, if you're 40+... And I realize I may alienate a lot of people with this, but A LOT OF PEOPLE making music are incredibly unrealistic about their talent. Have you played live in front of audiences of decent sizes -- including busking -- and seen a strong positive reaction? What causes you to believe your music has appeal and is at the level it needs to be? You need some kind of reality check and I believe the best place for that is still live performances in front of audiences. If you've passed all of those checks, you can move on to others. I've had a long career in marketing, with a publication of my own, a major book deal, lots of public speaking.... The promotion part of music is the most complicated and costly part. That's why 99% of artists need a record label or agency to handle this area. But if you're on your own promoting your music, I can't help but think of an old adage, "Nothing kills a bad product faster than good promotion." And when you're on your own and didn't jump through hoops of getting signed, there's an important element you missed, the opportunity to have a reality check. For an expert to give you an objective assessment of your music. While that isn't necessarily a definitive judgment, a lot of artists have been told their music won't succeed and still went on to success, more often than not, it can be a reality check and without having any expert weigh in, you may not be as realistic with yourself. I certainly don't mean to be discouraging, I mean to communicate: do everything possible to get a reality check. Making it, even on a minor level, in the music business, is incredibly challenging. You can more realistically set expectations and objectives and gage your potential by getting objective expert input.

Same.

I completely understand why small developers want to do their own plugins. But as someone who has worked with top experts in software user experience and usability,, has consulted to dozens of sample and plugin developers and as a user of these tools, I don't want to deal with the learning curve, updates and support and potential conflicts and issues of yet another plugin . I've invested financial and in terms of time investment in the KONTAKT ecosystem as a lot of other DAW users have, and even when I listen and hear a small developer make a sample library that sounds good, I really don't want the hassle of adding another plugin when I literally have more than I can learn with any level of competence in the time I have left on this planet. When I've advised sample developers. I always tell them, when you make your instruments, think about the learning curve a customer makes and do your best to ensure that the user's time investment with the learning curve will benefit the user as they invest in additional offerings you have. But where it's possible, allow the user to benefit from the knowledge they already possess. Always think about things from their perspective more than yours -- they're the ones you need to serve, not you and your ego. While it costs money and it's work to license the KONTAKT sample player, there is no cost to developer --in terms of licensing -- to make a library that works with KONTAKT (the full, paid version), which is the industry standard for sophisticated sample libraries with scripting. There are also other popular alternatives -- not as sophisticated, but widely used, like UVI, Decent Sampler and the SFZ format. I just saw an update from the developer who goes by the name Sample Science. A few years ago we had a brief chat where he was contemplating moving to KONTAKT, but eventually decided not to. Today he just announced that he's now going to move all of his sample libraries to the KONTAKT format. I think that's a great decision and it's very use-centric. And yes, I realize that those who are not invested in KONTAKT will disagree, but for those who are in a market paying for sophisticated, scripted sample libraries, KONTAKT is the best choice. Okay, rant over. I wish this dev the best, and I listened to his piano library, but when I found out it wasn't in KONTAKT, his library was no longer in my consideration set. I want to see small devs succeed. I love making music and using sample libraries. I just don't think small devs charging money for amateur level software is a good route. Focus on making a great sample library and leave the plugin software to the experts. Just my opinion. Others are free to disagree and buy as many sample library plugins from as many small developer they like and spend time dealing with individual issues and updates from each of those plugins for each sample library and be stuck with an unsupported plugin when the small dev gets out of the biz -- as happens extremely frequently. We can disagree about this stuff and should still be able to peacefully co-exist. My bottom line is I want both talented sample developers and people who use sample libraries to succeed. I think we do better when we have less software to learn, maintain and worry about so we can focus more on what we love -- making music.

Just guessing, but if they're using a Soundfont engine, it's really not going to compare to the quality level that you'll get from say Steven Slate Drums Free and other high end drum and sampler plugins with free drum kits that are widely available these days.

Thanks for posting that @Michael Docy, that video was extremely helpful.

@cclarryWhat do you think of Antares Choir? In the short video it didn't sound like a choir. Is it decent in your opinion? Thanks and I hope you're well . Of course, I'm interested in hearing from anyone else who has used Antares Choir too.

Again, I think it was a really relevant and useful share and I really like his very down to earth and humble style of storytelling. I looked super quickly, but do you know if he has any videos on how he promoted his music for him to get two hit songs on the charts? If he has a video on that, I bet a bunch of people here would find that useful. (Not me, I only record and share music as a hobby and am hoping to get more than 3 of my friends listening! But I have a lousy voice, can't play well anymore and am still learning about production and have no idea what I'm doing, I just thought I could share my knowledge of the music business and marketing in this thread and find the conversations interesting).

I just watched a little (I'll watch the rest later today), that's a pretty interesting story and the guy seems really down to earth and comes across very sincere (i didn't check to see if his song actually sold as well as he claimed). I was a bit suspicious that it might be BS from the title, but it seems pretty decent and the guy seems genuine and focused on helping others. Good share, @pwalpwal. I agree with your point that this is relevant here. If he has a video that gets more into how he promoted his music, that would be even more relevant, as it seems a lot of people in the thread are looking for insights in how to reach a larger audience and this guy appears to have done a good job of that.

I'm a former semi pro drummer who has had a long career in marketing with senior roles at major brands who long ago worked with a number of indie rock labels. I don't have experience in music marketing, but a good awareness of how things work and worked and friends from the music industry and musicians. I only do music as a hobby today and upload it to SoundCloud where only a small group of people listen. Because just like getting a phone number or a website, just existing doesn't mean much. But to offer some very basic marketing advice for a musician... For your music to get people's attention, first it has to appeal to them, if the music isn't up to the task, forget everything else. If your music has the quality level to appeal to a certain group, you need to find out how to reach that group. Once you find your audience you need to make them aware of your music. You could spend money on targeting ads at them thar promote your music. You can identify games that are interested in using (licensing) your music in their games, and you can find agencies that will do this marketing for you, which, if your music is realistically high quality and has the potential to appeal to a group, I think this is easily the best route. The old school ways music was promoted was through radio program directors and radio disc jockeys -- including drugs and bribes, through music trade magazines read by record store managers, then, like today through artists performing concerts and making appearances. Anyhow, my underlying point is that marketing music is pretty complex and costly and there's a lot of elements to the mix. Simply uploading your music to Spotify or wherever with no promotional strategy is almost never going to result in anything more than a nominal awareness of your music. For a small non-label affiliated artist you're going to need to put together a savvy marketing strategy to get your music heard. And it likely will mean you're going to have to be pretty creative, think about relationships, look at vendors that have expertise that you can afford -- so you will need a budget. I'd still recommend doing local performances to build awareness of your brand as an artist. Have a plan to stimulate your fan base to share and promote your music. It takes creativity and a guerilla marketing mindset. And the easiest route is always going to be getting signed to a label that handle all of this stuff for you so that you can focus on getting your music to be the best it can be and live shows and appearances which remain very important even in the age of Spotify and social media, all of these things can work together.

It sounds really nice. Thanks for the input on RealSamples, Fleer. I've seen them around for a long time but I don't think I've bought anything from them before (okay my sample library addiction has gotten so bad, I might have bought from them years ago and don't recall). As usual, the library sounds really good with Simeon playing.

Somewhat off topic and completely irrelevant, but I think Husker, you have a fondness for hockey that shows in your avatar and this thread's title. Not knocking it, I'm a fan and of the same team too. Just a quick observation!

There's so much to unpack that's fundamentally wrong with those claims you've made. I don't have time to address all of it. But quite simply...Just your argument that Taylor Swift has minimal resources behind her is so fantastically wrong. You consider multi-million dollar ad spends to promote her major releases "relatively minimal resources"???? Relative to what? To compare that indie artists and regional artists that don't even have $10,000 USD a yr budget to spend on promotion to Taylor Swift -- who has a massive marketing machine behind her, as big as it gets in the business -- is beyond ridiculous. Unquestionably, if you're an artist, you need to be on the various platforms where the people who consume the kind of music you create listen to music, but Spotify's current revenue model simply is not going to generate much revenue for artists without massive reach and, in the vast majority of cases, a serious ad spend. Only a very small percentage of artists are making significant wages on Spotify. I know several artists who are not currently signed on major labels anymore but had albums on major labels in the past and still produce music on smaller labels and have fans, one who once had a top 40 hit in the US -- that probably the majority of people here would know -- and he's not even making $10,000 a yr from Spotify. You referred to the resources required to generate $1,000 sales per month on BandCamp. Can you tell us how many plays you need per month to generate $1,000 USD per month on Spotify? And tell us what your marketing strategy would be to generate $1,000 per month so we can understand what your net profit might be. Spotify is simply not a platform with a revenue model that provides a decent income for a smaller reach artist. There is no way to make the math work for small artists with limited reach. Considering the avg payout of $0.003/stream, an artist would need to get around 335,000 streams to GROSS $1,000 on Spotify. And the odds are that you're not going to get that amount of play month after month without investing in promotion and even $1,000 per month is a very very ridiculously small ad spend that will not reach the volume of listeners to get anywhere near 335,000 streams month after month -- no matter how ingenious your strategy is. So tell me, what would your promotion spend per month be to gross $1,000 per month? As you're boasting about your success with Spotify, can you link to your account so that we can see for ourselves?