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I disagree that we disagree... ?

I agree. SampleTank 4 MAX has apparently "jumped the shark" as far as instrument sample storage is concerned. No complaints regarding the quality of these sounds, which are excellent, but it seems like it's time to explore more use of physical modeling technologies instead of uber sampling. I think we may have reached the limits of what is practical for sampled instruments and storage space in this latest version...

I glanced at their requirements and they appear to require minimal space (compared to many of their other instruments). Most likely because the MODOs are mostly modeling based rather than sample based.

I was just stating facts that could hopefully help someone that just stumbled onto this thread. Not trying to start a debate. And I have never seen an instructional video for Cakewalk beginners that didn't pile on too much up front, or leave something out. So would agree most of them fall short in some way. IMHO a DAW like Cakewalk isn't really ideal for absolute beginners, because it is so deep. But we all have to start somewhere, and the price of entry is quite attractive to those just starting out. ?

Right, there are some 3rd party instruments that do, but in order to avoid confusing the matter, the OP's original statement was: The Cakewalk bundled instruments do not generate MIDI.

As the plug-in itself is not a MIDI controller. Available MIDI controllers will show up in the track inspector or track header (including the virtual controller) as the available inputs to a MIDI /Instrument Track. That is where the real-time MIDI input data is routed to the instrument plugin (and MIDI track). A virtual instrument takes MIDI data in (live or pre-recorded), and generates sound as audio output.

Translation via Google Translate:

Same suggestion. Peruse the comparison list. Lots of nice samples in the MAX, but you may not need/want them all. I got a good deal on the pre-sale crossgrade to MAX from ST3. That was a no-brainer, but cost me a SSD upgrade on my sample drive to accommodate it all. One thing I could do without are the zillions of relatively anonymous Synth variations, basses, arpeggios, leads, pads, etc. instruments included in MAX (about 1/2 the instrument list, or 20 GB). I already have the full Syntronik, and I find them mostly redundant. But that doesn't take away from the exclusives to MAX, such as the very nice Stick Basses, Euphoniums, Flugel Horns, French Horns, Tubas, Nylon G guitars, J200 guitars, string Basses, Cellos, Violas, Violins, Alto Saxes, Flutes, the Red Strat Electric Guitar, plus any ST3 extras you may be missing. Otherwise the ST4 standard edition would offer a very nice upgrade to the SE edition, including the Black Les Paul Electric and a pedal steel guitar.

I don't know. You be the judge whether you need the extra sounds. I will say some of them are quite good. Here's the comparison: https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/include/st4/soundlist/SampleTank_4_comparison.pdf

The simple answer is playing the instrument with a mouse does not generate any MIDI data that can be recorded. That function is only for auditioning the sounds, not recording them. In reading through the thread that appears to be an assumption that this should work. It does not. You can generate MIDI data in real time with an external MIDI controller assigned as input to the track that the instrument is on, as well as by using the Cakewalk virtual MIDI controller or PC keyboard on that instrument track. Other options instead of recording in real time are to use pre-recorded MIDI loops, or to generate your own MIDI patterns in any of the following: the piano roll view, step sequencer, or staff view. All are time proven methods of recording MIDI for Cakewalk virtual instruments.

That's why the guitar was invented. ?

How many other synths use a similar method of sound generation? I think spectral filtering of samples is pretty rare... and for $10 a no-brainer! From iZotope Iris 2 Help Documentation: Etc.

I read it again, and it's not really clear what you are asking for here. In a earlier post you stated that it was about bank/programs. Then in this latest post you said you are not asking for them. Do you just want to manage patch names? You clearly misunderstood the point that what I was trying to make. It's not the DAW's fault if the VSTi doesn't share program info with the host, it's entirely up to the VSTi developer to fix that. That was what I meant by it's not the DAW. It's the plugin. Still MIDI, but the other side of the fence. The only interface for this communication was baked into the MIDI standard decades ago. You may want to take a look at this project, VST and standalone: https://www.pluginguru.com/products/unify-standard/ It appears to be attempting to do something from the ground up that might be useful for managing VSTi. There is a demo version to play with. And I have been using Cakewalk for 20+ years and know all about Twelve Tone when it was MIDI only. I used to sequence external MIDI synths with that originally, so I am quite experienced with MIDI. I have moved on to VSTi at the present time. I generally still mostly do sequencing, and very little audio.

It also has little to do with the DAW. MIDI Bank/Program changes are already available.

LOL! Sorry bro! ?

I bought the SampleTank 4 MAX crossgrade at the pre-sale price, which was excellent! But I was not prepared disk space wise for the enormous downloads. So I never got around to downloading many of the sound expansions that I was entitled to. So recently I did a disk drive upgrade on my system that ran about $200. When I looked at what I was missing from ST4 MAX, I was surprised to learn that the downloads had expired. So I paid the $10 for another 180 days. The way I look at it is that $10 spent now was a lot cheaper than $200 that I couldn't afford for a drive upgrade at the time. But I wish that they would change their current policy, as it is stupid.

The only thing that really interests me is the Hammond. But nothing else does as far as the potential freebies. I think I'd like to see IK offer equivalent JamPoints for the Group Buy as an alternative to claiming freebies...

Yep, I believe that is how it works now, unless you are filtering that MIDI data from the recording. But that patch number would only be useful in the context of the same VSTi loaded with the exact same bank anytime you played back that MIDI track with those changes. But your VSTi would still have to be coded to recognize MIDI bank/patch changes, else they would be ignored. Some do, and some don't.

I think ASIO is mostly trouble free if you only have ONE version installed. ASIO4ALL works great on my laptop which just uses on-board audio. I also ran into a similar issue a few years ago when a Steinberg demo decided to install its own low latency driver unannounced.

Yes I agree, but I just wanted to share how it has already been done. Coming from a MIDI hardware only background, to an in-the-box VSTi only setup, I no longer have use for bank/program changes. I believe using multiple instances on different tracks is more effective, especially if you are using samplers. The load times could be problematic if you are loading large samples when changing instrument programs on the fly. In the old days, the sample ROM was relatively small in hardware ROMplers.

Just wanted to post this here as a heads-up to anyone who installs the Sound Forge Audio Studio 13. It comes with a little hidden bonus in the form of a Magix Low Latency ASIO driver named "mgxasio4_x64.dll". ? If you are only using Windows Audio, you might be OK. But I have audio hardware and a dedicated ASIO driver for that purpose, and an apparent conflict. I began having issues starting Cakewalk, and a few other programs, that would hang for several minutes attempting to use the Magix ASIO, even though they were set up to use my real ASIO driver. Unfortunately, MAGIX didn't even ask permission to install, or bother to include an uninstaller for this driver. So I uninstalled Sound Forge Audio Studio 13, and that took care of it. Apparently you can alternatively hack it away by removing these: Go into the Registry... HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ASIO - delete the Magix Low Latency ASIO driver entry HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\WOW6432Node\ASIO - delete the Magix Low Latency ASIO driver entry And then remove this file... c:\Program Files\Common Files\Magix Services\System\mgxasio4_x64.dll

Interesting proposal. But I believe that this issue, and the solution for bank and patch numbers in virtual instruments lies in the MIDI standard and the VST instrument coding. Cakewalk and other DAWs are already capable of sending standard bank and patch change messages. But the VSTi's must be capable of knowing what to do with the message. VSTi's can support standard .fxb and .fxp files, with 128 patches per bank, but only if the developer has incorporated that feature, in addition to whatever proprietary internal patch bank/browser system that was implemented. Sometimes these internal banks can hold thousands of patches, so there is no way to have a one-for-one map to cross reference to .fxb banks. And each developer usually has a different internal method, as they are virtually free from being bound to the the old MIDI standard for this aspect of patch handling. The solution is to save your 128 favorite patches as ".fxp" to a custom ".fxb" bank stored in a folder that the plugin dev has accounted for. The dev also has to code the plugin to accept bank and patch changes. I initially struggled with this concept as I transitioned from years of using external MIDI instruments, external MIDI ports and cables, instrument definitions, MIDI SysEx transfers, etc. Here is an example based on the SynthMaster One User Guide.

You are correct, and I think that one is my favorite! ?

I like the restriction! It keeps me away from needlessly tweaking knobs all day. Sound designers may disagree of course, but the macro knobs are usually enough to play the instrument expressively. Now THAT would be nice!

I have the full Syntronik collection, but that is my chief complaint. Click on preset... wait ... load... The loading time for the samples is not the greatest, and I have them all on SSD now. However the sound quality is great! But, I also have the Arturia Analog Lab, and I am finding that auditioning presets in much more enjoyable in that product. Click. Load. Click. Load. I think that is the difference between sampling vs. modeling.