Amberwolf

FWIW, I think the point Jim Stamper is trying to make is that it isn't about a workaround (which he already has at least one of)...it's about finding the root cause so that the problem causing it can be fixed. (edit: for some reason it doesnt' show any of the stuff I quoted in the quote, maybe the forum just doesnt' do nested quotes?)

Still using an ancient PaintShop Pro 6...tried GIMP but every version so far has had wierd problems, or works in ways that can't do what I want without immense gyrations of user input. PSP6 just works, and is "obvious" how things work, and it does almost everything I want it to, even if most of it is manual tedious work. GIMP (and lots of other software) has too much "programmer syndrome", which means that the designers of things get this idea in their head of how something works internally and then do that with the UI, instead of making the UI (user interface) for the *user*, which is going to be completely different from how the internal stuff works. But many programmers don't see that, and can't be pushed to do so by users; they just push back and say "no, *this* is how it works" instead of letting their userbase show them how it *should* work to actually be useful to most users. Maybe it's improved in recent years, but I doubt it....

Could be, but if the same cable is used on the noisy and non noisy system tests, it's much less likely (it would mean that something esle is still different between thsoe two that allows it to cause the problem in one vs the other)

More variety: The most recent completed one, The Last Flight https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-flight Just before that one was No Bigger Than The Space Of Time https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/no-bigger-than-the-space-of-time And a pair, Aftermath of Sunlight and Pre-Cast-Shadows https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/aftermath-of-sunlight https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/pre-cast-shadows-aftermath-of-sunlight-pt-2 An ancient one I resurrected from an archived harddisk; made this back in the 1990s, IIRC https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/dinosaur-hunter The most recent one still in progress, just a sketch: https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=15064964

(This post is broken, reposted in next post)

Are you using any demo versions of plugins? Some of them use a gap of silence at random times, and can cause this. It can also happen to a plugin you own that hasn't got it's activation or license or whatever correctly applied, etc., from some manufacturers that do that sort of thing.

Just for grins, if your non-noisy system has a two prong (at the wall end) cord, like this (note that I used USA plugs here, if you're not in the USA yours will probably look different) and your noisy system has a three prong cord (at the wall end), like this to the ac outlet on the wall, like this do you have a spare ac cord for the noisy system that you can break the round ground prong off of just to test how it works that way? Or if you have one of these laying around, u se it between that cord and the wall:

Wierd...somewhere in the last few edits leading up to the previous export/upload, *all* the busses were somehow set to feed the hardware out. I don't even know a way to do that on purpose except one by one, and I definitely didn't do that. Fixed by referring to a previous save version easily enough, but...weird. Also fixed the awkward placment of hte cliff jump / start of flight effects. I thought I had it down, but when i listened to it today, it sounded terrible, where i had had to alter the music around it, especially the lute part. So I reverted that section back to original, and moved the jump back a few measures and it fits MUCH better there. So the new version: 07-24-25: 071825 000001 000109u -- Fixed program failure (all buses mysteriously set to hardware out instead of chains they had been in) and fixed awkward placement of cliffjump / start of flight. https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-flight

I looked up "brauer" and found this https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/learn/reaper-tip-michael-brauers-brauerize-mixing-technique (I quoted some of the article at the end of this post for later reference) which turns out that I apparently reinvented something that seems to be similar to this process for myself, cuz it's what I've been doing since at least Ookami no Kari no Yume (Wolf's Dream of the Hunt) since it was the only way to make things work...but I started the path to something like it back before even Neotenous Chordata, maybe as far back as Convocation of Lies and Just give Me A Voice. 😊 I don't usualy have "lead vocals" so the part in the diagram below the quote doesn't usually apply directly, and I don't parallel compress that when i do have one (I guess I should learn how since I'm beginning to do more vocal stuff now that I have libraries of samples to use). In the last several pieces I've started using many more sends to parallel process some tracks, but some things still just go to one bus (a lot of percussion stuff stil goes jsut to it's grouping bus, but some that have deep tones also send to the perc-subbass buss if I want to preserve them and have them help the beat of the whole submix).

I started experimenting with splitting the bass when I had a synthbass line in...I think it was Neotenous Chordata? that I didn't want to lose all the sound of at the highs, but I also wanted to seriously magnify the subbass parts without blasting out the mid/bass etc. I don't have a surgical EQ, just the Sonitus and other similar ones, and those didn't do what I wanted, so I thought...why not just nuke whole bands using the SMBC just as a "filter" (no compression/etc) and feed different busses that I could then do whatever with. I also had a separate subbass tone sound that was just used on the beats, and that also went into the subbass buss. That worked, and since I almost always do the next song using the previous one minus all the content / automation, to use it as a template (because how I set things up improves each time, and it's the easiest way....) then the busing has stayed that way. When I did Ookami no Kari no Yume (Wolf's Dream of the Hunt), I added a second main Bass bus (Bass2) and several additional percussion buses (hand perc, etc) to the "percussion" chain, most of them parallel to the main perc buss that feeds the Perc&Bass bus that feeds the master. There's a lot of different percussion and bass in that project, driving the "motion"? of hunter and prey, separately but together, (not sure it works, but it was the idea), and I couldn't get them to play nice wihtout doing it that way. I still know almost nothing about busing, mastering, and all that stuff...every project is a new learning experience, especially when it has a different feel and sound than the others before it.... So i experiement till it sounds like I want, and if I can't make that happen, I google articles about it and sometimes I actually understand something they're talking about.... :lol: I'll have to look up "Brauer"... I don't think I have anything that shows "LUFS". I use Elemental Audio Systems free version of "Inspector" set to "Moderate" to warn me of clips and stuff, but since I use Sonitus MBcompressor on the output in a modified version of one of the "master" presets, I don't normally get any. I tend to just push the final out stage on that (that shows 5.0db in the screenshot below) until it "sounds" as loud as the other stuff I did that I liked at that level, and that doesn't completely destroy the dynamics and turn it into a hedge. So +5 did it for The Last Flight. +2 did it for the one before that. Some don't get any. I almost always already start out with all the tracks and buses at the volumes I want for the kind of thing being put thru them, with minor tweaks at track output level for various things, so I almost never want to change relative volumes by adjsuting bus outputs. The simplest way, so far, that gets a sound I like, and final volume i want, is usually to just push that Out up on the SMBC. Someitmes I use the master bus input gain, but that often leads to clipping or problems because the other buses are already feeding it high enough. And using hte output gain on the MB can do the same thing, but the Out adjusts level *before* limiting (and maybe other stuff, not sure) so it then does limiting to ensure everything stays in bounds, if I don't push it too hard. For this project, I finally found a close-enough wind sound, and some footsteps to use for walking up to the cliff then running to the edge and jumping off, to start her dive and then soaring over the water. Had to modify the music itself for that specific bit, not sure I got the lute bit done "right" yet; I think the perc and the bass are ok (most of the perc taken out there to let the footsteps running up do their thing). 07-23-25: 071825 000001 000093q -- Added wind, walking and hten running footsteps in the clifftop gravel, the sound of flapping clothes, etc. https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-flight

Then if hockeyjx's NUC is the same, it means the computer that doesnt' have the noise issue also doesn't have a ground pin for it's power supply, so it wouldn't be creating any ground loops via the wall AC system. If the other system is a regualr desktop or tower, using a regular 3-prong cord, then it does ahve a ground pin for it's power supply, and so it could create ground loops via the wall AC system. So, assuming that the problem system is "new" and has never been used for audio before, so that hte problem and machine are both coincident, that would be the first place I'd check, doing the usual things to eliminate ground loops.

Thanks--I'm still looking for the right wind sound for that one lonely part just before the last section, and some others for accents earlier. The wind represents her flying; there's a fall first, as she jumps from the cliff, then swoops out and glides over the ocean in the rain. Lots of wind sounds out there...but hard to find one that sounds like these. What is "Mercer'? The core bass tone is from the sample itself; the rest is from this: The way I currently use basses in my tracks routes them thru three parallel buses and fx chains, besides whatever is on the track itself (in this case a subtle delay). FX chain included parenthetically below with each bus: --Bass (Sonitus Multiband Compressor, with the two highest bands (of five) muted entirely, so you don't get any of the highs just mids and lows, but very little actual compression unless it gets really loud, to just keep it from distorting). --Basshighs (SMBC again, with just the two highest bands *not* muted, and a reverb with a 1.5s decay, and most of the highs dampened, and "200% width" which takes the reverb part and spreads it out all the way to the left and right. ) --Subbass (EQ to cut off anything above 200hz, then Multiband Compressor wiht the top three (of five) bands muted, and the low-mid band gain cut by -10db and a knee starting at -34db, the low band below 60hz left alone, and a final output gain of 2.6db). Both the last two buses go directly to the master bus, while the Bass bus goes to a subbus that merges all percussion and bass together with a single Multiband Compressor set to just do limiting, so that it keeps all the "beat" together and damps really big peaks to prevent distortion. Oh, and I also have a separate track that I sometimes copy bits of the bassline to for accents on some beats, that uses LittleGreenAmp and a delay and Sonitus MBC. On htis piece, I only use this on the one part around two and a half minutes in for a few seconds, for the bass. (I also use it for the "lute solo" in the last section). I also use this on some of the beats and notes in Behind You Lie Many Unseen's last two sections to emphasize them, where I have the bass note play in both tracks for those notes, so you hear the bass tone and the harmonics from the distortion.

None of those things should cause any kind of noise in your monitors. That has to get there in the audio signal path, or the ground to the power or signal path. Ok, well, there's one more path: RF (radio). If you have wifi or bluetooth devices on the problem PC that are not on the other, *and* the monitors or something else in the signal path to the monitors is vulnerable to RF that can then get amplified by preamps, etc., to become noise in the audio signal, that can also cause it. This would also be more likely to sound like "data" or "modem" noise. Some thoughts from experience, and electrical principles and theory: A fan can make audible noise, but unless it's a brushed motor (not used in any computer or rack fans I've ever seen, even ancient ones from the 1960s), it won't make electrical or RF noise that would end up in your signal path like this. Most have tiny brushless motor controller chips in them, that do generate some RF noise, but it is tiny and would require some other system problem to allow this to be an issue. The noise would be a constant tone or buzz directly related to the RPM of the fan, so if touching a fan lightly to slow it down doesnt' change the tone of the noise, it's not coming from a fan. A PSU could fail to filter such noise from a power bus, but the computer would probably be unstable if the PSU were unable to filter noise to this degree; it would likely also require the motherboard filter caps to be bad as well, as they provide additional filtering on the power buses. PSU noise not on the power bus couldn't make it into the computer directly, so it would be RF noise, and be radiated the same regardless of what the comptuer was doing as long as it was powered on at all, so even if it wasn't connected to your monitors it would still make the noise and the monitors would still pick it up. It would also probably be a steady noise, not "data' sounding. Problems with data busses radiating RF can make the kind of noise you hear, but wouldn't be an issue unless the audio device is picking that up and pasing it on--all computers make a fair bit of this kind of RF, most of them shield it eitehr with the main casing having a metal lining or being all metal, or thru good grounding planes, etc. But good audio devices are shielded against it anyway...however, they may depend on a good ground for the audio cables and power to do that. Power cables for AC lines aren't the issue, unless they have grounding on one system and the other does not, so that either the ground is feeding the noise into the signal path or preventing it from getting there. If you've tried different AC power cables with no change, and swapped the cables between the problem system and the other one, with no change, then it's not those. AC-DC wallwarts that have no ground pin (very common) can generate RF that doesn't get grounded even if there is shielding, and can be re-radiated thru their output wires or the device they power. If their shield/negative connects thru the device they power and then a chain of connections to the primary system groudn that does get to the wall outlet ground, then it would *probably* be less radiated, or even prevented. Regarding the noise *after* opening a project, it is probably the audio driver not being opened and sending signal to the monitors until the project accesses the input or output of the audio device. Unlikely causes: Back in the 90s, before the OSes did IRQ management, I had a machine with a NIC that had to have a specific IRQ assigned in the BIOS for the PCI bus. If it wasn't on that one, it would cause wierd data noises in the SBLive audio in or out, even if the NIC wasn't plugged into a network cable. But this type of problem hasn't happened to me since, oh, at least WinXP, maybe Win2000. I had some other thoughts but JellyBeanThePerfectlyNormalSchmoo needed attentionals and I forgot what they were by the time I got back to the computer.... 🐶

It wouldn't (shouldn't, can't think of how) be software. This kind of thing is usually a ground loop, and most often caused by an ac adapter for something attached to the laptop, the sound device, the mixer, or something else in the audio path. Since you have a second computer, what is different between the two, in how they are connected to power from the wall? Including which outlets things are plugged into?

Finally got the artwork composited: Also updated the track itself 07-22-25: 071825 000001 000075m -- added environmental fx, widened part of the lute solo to fill space.

@Max Arwood@Kevin Walsh Thanks! I forgot to note here that last night I'd updated it to version 07-21-25: 071825 000001 000067k -- further fine tuning, added bass grace notes and fills, some mix changes in spots. Reworked the intro percussion, turned it way down along with the intro vocal notes. Moved some percussion bits around, added a few more shakers here and there. Altered the "trap style" pre-measure bits in most places to fill with shakers or tambs or caxixi, or leave empty for expectation of a note that isn't there this time so the next one has more impact, etc. Also automated more of the amp / eq controls on the lute solo in the final section for more dynamics. Still working on the cover art. Have to composite several different things, since my usual help sources don't seem to want to create anything remotely resembling what I need this time. (how hard can it be to create an image of a storm-wracked ocean covered in clouds to the horizon, thunderstorms visible here and there...viewed from a clifftop high above that sea, looking out and down on the waves battering spines of rock like dark teeth rising from the foam, and between you and all that, just visible in form but not detail, is an old woman with silver hair falling fast from that clifftop she has leaped from, very long metal glider wings extended out to her sides for several meters...?)

Thanks! I updated it with various edits, mix, fx, etc. Added "lute solo" to final reprise section...might surprise you, might not. Worth a listen if you heard the original. https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-flight 07-20-25: 071825 000001 000055f - new version Original version here: https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=15058975

I prefer the ones with the steps on the back side.

If anyone has ever read Windhaven (by George RR Martin and Lisa Tuttle), this is The Last Flight: https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-flight Since Windhaven is an ocean world, with what amounts to an archipelago of islands for it's land, I went with what I hope is a mediterraneanish sort of sound, in my own wierd way. 07-19-25: 071825 000001 000042a-- first public version 07-20-25: 071825 000001 000055f -- Various edits, mix, fx, etc. Added "lute solo" to final reprise section. 07-21-25: 071825 000001 000067k -- further fine tuning, added bass grace notes and fills, some mix changes in spots. Reworked the intro percussion, turned it way down along with the intro vocal notes. Moved some percussion bits around, added a few more shakers here and there.Altered the "trap style" pre-measure bits in most places to fill with shakers or tambs or caxixi, or leave empty for expectation of a note that isn't there this time so the next one has more impact, etc. Also automated more of the amp / eq controls on the lute solo in the final section for more dynamics. 07-22-25: 071825 000001 000075m -- added environmental fx, widened part of the lute solo to fill space. 07-23-25: 071825 000001 000077n -- had forgotten to widen the space for the rain 07-23-25: 071825 000001 000093q -- Added wind, walking and hten running footsteps in the clifftop gravel, the sound of flapping clothes, etc. 07-24-25: 071825 000001 000109u -- Fixed program failure (all buses mysteriously set to hardware out instead of chains they had been in) and fixed awkward placement of cliffjump / start of flight. Original version here: https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=15058975 07-20-25: 071825 000001 000042a - first public version

Aw, I thought I was getting a thread dedicated just to me!

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I had the icons themselves hidden by the browser (so I can enlarge all the text to be able to read it without making all the graphics gigantic too), so I didn't see them; just the numbers of reactions). Sorry about that.

BTW...if everything I said was wrong...why did you "like" my post? 😕 EDIT: Nevermind; was pointed out below that it was a negative not a positive (I couldn't see that on my screen).

Couple of reasons I do it the way I do: First is whether or not you are worried about the small (but always possible) risk of this low-probability-high-impact event: Let's say you are in the middle of saving a file, and the computer reboots, program or computer crashes, power shuts off, etc. For almost all programs I've ever used, in this event, the file isn't finished saving, but it already overwrote the existing file. (some programs actuallly write to a totally new file, then delete the old one, or evne just "hide" it from you when using the program (but it still exists and is visible in Windows Explorer, etc). I don't know how the modern Sonar does it's saves, so it might avoid this situation (and it has Versioning, which would also avoid it). In that specific event or set of conditions, unless you have a copy of the file somewhere else, your work is now gone. It happened to me, once (long before Cakewalk or Sonar), and I ensured it would never happen again. Second, it depends on how you work. If, like me, you want to be able to go back to any version of any project (in whatever program), you can SaveAs to a new file everyt time you save, and save at every point you make any change you might want to undo. This leaves you free to do any kind of edit, deletion, etc, and experiment freely, and then later completely change your mind and go back to whatever point you want, either to start over, or to just copy that stuff back into the current version of the project. So I use a filename system that is the date, the number of the project I started taht day (as I might get ideas for several), and then the version of the project, and then any notes about why I'm saving right there. An example might be something like 071825 000003 000325C -- mix edit changes - bass - strings - vocals. In Sonar, there's "versioning" available (I assume this still exists in modern versions ) so that you can just do your usual Save or Ctrl-S, and it will automatically deal with saving older versions as files with a different version number and keeping however many around that you specify (up to 999 I think). But most programs don't have that, and I developed my system before it existed, so I just use my system to safeguard myself. I do actually have it turned on, but since I disabled the save button in the toolbar and took it out of the File menu, so I only have SaveAs, and I bound that to Ctrl-S instead of Save...it doesn't ever use the versioning.

Ok, that's good to know. I don't know how it works internally, so this is useful information. Thank you. I added a note at the beginning of my post that you'd quoted to advise that the scenario couldn't happen, but left the orignal below taht for reference. That's true; I didn't know there was a warning, or I wouldn't have typed all that up. (I'm not using the modern versions; I'm still back at SPlat and earlier).

It seems too obvious to have missed, so my guess is they had them in there under some other type of sound name, making them harder to find, or they were under some subcategory instead of a top-level of their own.