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Dare Rihter

Bakers, bread overbacken, or what?

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Dare, reading through your comments, it appears that you've abandoned CbB for now and are investigating other DAWs. That seems to be a good idea and will give you another point of reference. So my responses to your questions and explanations below probably won't be much use to you now.  But should you revisit CbB in the future, hopefully some of my responses will be useful then.

On 10/29/2019 at 11:04 AM, Dare Rihter said:

Did You personally made clean install Win10 Creator to get working system?

Yes, as you noted, clean installs are not as important now as they were in the past and they are time consuming, but I still like to start that way. I suggested it to you because the problems you were reporting seemed to be very unlikely which made me think there might be serious problems with your OS or other applications.

On 10/29/2019 at 11:04 AM, Dare Rihter said:

On that machine i have a lot of worthwhile software that must run for business purposes and that's not really easy decision for me.

This other software could be contributing significantly to your problem. You might want to check that out.

On 10/29/2019 at 11:04 AM, Dare Rihter said:

BTW, do You use take lanes for recording? My latest problem on take lanes (multiple on one track) was dissapearing recorded audio materials and total mess up with recorded audio (weird clip splits, putting everything on last lane, some clips simply dissapeared, also from disk (!) etc). 

I am trying to learn to use take lanes. So far they are a challenge. I've learned that doing things in the right order is really important, but I still have problems. One thing that I believe is recommended by documentation is turn of the Comp Smart Tool and then find the Mute tool which took me a while. The Mute tool can quickly undo selection mistakes. Take lanes seem to automatically split take clips that are longer than others which can also cause problems with things like drag moves that tend to leave the automatically generated clips behind or cover them up. I've still got a lot to learn here.

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Hi All,

music is not my primary occupation, so I don't work on that every day. The same for this forum. Sorry for (only) occasional posts and replies.

I will probably return to Cakewalk, when bug list becomes shorter than approx 20% of improvement list. I was CDO for approx 10 years, covering ~40 people in development and I know almost everything about software development, politics and economic reasons to behave like Bandlab currently. And about people making and selling these products. Nothing is for free. Or, somebody from Bandlab please enlighten me to understand, how to develop succesfully so complicated and advanced piece of software without significant ROI. Impossible, if You employ programmers able to do their work, product owners that clearly know focuses and at the end bunch of insider testers. Improvements sells better than cleaning bugs even for non mature programs, like currently Cakewalk is. Mature program works in environments advertised to work in. Not conditionally. Mature program does not expect some last fancy fresh install for (parts of) OS, just because Microsoft wants that.  

@Bill Read again what You wish to convince me and rethink what do you expect from me. Creators update brings me in danger to broke working business environment because of some non-mature spoiled program more than obviously in heavy refactor, reengineering, cosmetic improvements etc. Out of question, totally. Because of new non-stable version of program that works three builds before, i will reinstall everything? Yes, for sure I do... Never. Because of new piece of furniture, I must build new house and buy all other furniture? Life doesn't work like that. I will BUY compatible furniture. I hope You (finally) get it.

Lanes etc, great idea but forgotten in the middle of development, let's leave that until all basic things works as expected. You cannot learn something, that does not work at all.

Another thing, dear Community, moderators, Cakewalk fans etc - I wrote about things, You have no impact on. Without any changes in OS, any other program etc, Cakewalk stops working as it worked in previous versions after official upgrade. This is task for developers. Creators. Bakers. Cooks. Whatever. Not for end users. Period.

And Bakers at least for now, are not interested, no questions, example requests or other communication EXCEPT showing political will in this forum to solve some little deeper and complex problems as some obvious bugs. Bugs cannot be solved with political speaches.  

I must say, it's interesting, first DAW I downloaded as demo, fills all my expectations above. Without ANY upgrades of ANYTHING. Lightweight, configurable, some little differences in workflow, but nothing surprising. For sake of test, i tried also 32bit VSTs. Guess - everything I tried works. No crashes. Speed. Etc etc. Only on my machine? I DON'T THINK SO  

Now, If You really want to help me, please share with me Cakewalk program files from about 3 updates ago, if You aren't upgraded yet. Contact me privatelly if You are willing to help me to restore good-enough-working-state of Cakewalk.

Best musical regards

Dare

P.S. Why I wrote these posts? Because it's necessary to push average programmers nose into shit, that they begin to feel, that shit really stinks. And effect is better when nose-in-shit pushing is public. And BTW, most used programmers excuses are: "But it works on my machine" and "It's not bug, it appears only at Your system" :) 

 

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Well - let's see:

1) Best wishes for success with music production - this goes out to anyone who strives to create music, regardless of staying with Cakewalk, or moving on, etc...

2) The prior releases of CbB can be user-maintained, and there have been posts that refer to a process that works to support installing prior releases.  If you do a Google search for the following terms, without the quotes, you will see several threads returned that discuss precisely how to go about the process of saving off releases and rolling back as needed: "site: discuss.cakewalk.com scook utility prior release".  Please note that these threads will not immediately benefit you, as you had not saved off any of the prior releases, but this certainly will help you with any future need to perform a rollback to undo some future release.  It is possible that someone will also respond with an offer to send you one of the prior releases, so that you can at least have a version that allows your work to continue, until whatever your current issues are, get resolved.  If you look through the threads returned by the Google search, using the suggested search terms, perhaps if you were to privately message some of the folks in the threads, who seem to have taken regular steps to save off prior versions of Cakewalk, well perhaps someone can and will send you the prior version.  At this point, it seems to me like this would be worth your pursuing.

3)  In the past, if there were any maintenance release that truly did contain systemic showstopper errors, there were immediate and massive numbers of posted reports about folks experiencing the issues - like within minutes of the maintenance release getting published for download by the user community.  This has happened in the past, not at all frequently, but it has happened.  The Cakewalk staff has always maintained a higher monitoring of the forums, immediately following putting releases out for download, for precisely that reason - to be able to quickly react and respond to whatever showstopper(s) were blowing things up for folks who had just done the maintenance update.  There would soon be a 'hot fix' update to the updated version, to address whatever had gone so wrong as to produce systemic failures.  I explain all of that, because this is NOT the situation that you are in.  There are NOT widespread failures being reported by anyone out there, so that means that whatever is failing on YOUR system, is a direct consequence of some set of conditions only found on YOUR system.  Regardless of your high regard for yourself, and your computer skills, it is a simple truth that there is something peculiar to YOUR system's environment - be it software or hardware, or both, likely in combination with some set of actions you are attempting to take in Cakewalk, that are producing the disastrous results that have frustrated you to the point of walking away from Cakewalk - for whatever period of time that ends up being.  This is my observation - based on MY computer background, as well as my 30-year familiarity with using Cakewalk, since it first appeared, and my observations on the current LACK of other folks having recurring showstopper failures in Cakewalk. I will try another way of explaining my point - if you are in a roomful of people, and you smell smoke, and you are the only person with smoke coming off the top of your head, then it is YOUR head that is on fire, regardless of how good a hair dresser you may be,.

4)  At this point, I have pretty much put forth my thoughts and position on where things stand.  My offer to assist you stands, for now, for months from now, whenever you are ready to have me work with you to do some thorough analysis of whatever issues you are having - which WILL involve taking a look at your computer's hardware and software configuration and health.  I will make sure I 'Follow' this thread, so that if you return to it, and express a desire to engage in cooperative analysis of your issues, I will make time available to assist you, as best I can, including my potentially contacting the Cakewalk support folks to review findings and such.  What I am NOT interested in continuing to do, is to keep rehashing my above points, which I have essentially made now either twice or perhaps three times, in ever-increasing detail.  I stand by my assessment of your current situation - being that your computer's environment is contributing to the issues that you are having (in all likelihood), and that you would achieve the quickest resolution of those issues, by your deciding to come down a notch or two on your self-assessment of computer skill level, and be willing to work with others to try to figure out how to resolve your issues and get you back to getting the things you want to do in Cakewalk, done.  UNTIL you decide to engage, whether with me, or others in the forum, and/or the Cakewalk support folks, I will only monitor this thread to make sure that posts are 'civil', and to check to see if you have decided to engage in analysis of your issues cooperatively. 

5) You are also welcome to discuss your situation through private messages with me - I always keep an eye out for messages from folks, and would certainly respond to your reaching out privately to me, if the purpose of the communication is to begin working through analysis of your issues.  I have said all I choose to, regarding other aspects of this thread, but again, stand ready to assist with actual investigation of whatever your issues are with using Cakewalk.

Bob Bone

 

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6 hours ago, mkerl said:

Acting like a troll. Can't take you seriously.

 

You are welcome, warior guy. If You do not have to ay anything usable, better shut up. Is not about You take me seriously. Targeting people, that can make some effect (not only for me, but for community), not people like You, only replying with garbage.

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Hi @Robert Bone 

thanks for wide elaboration and hints about getting older version. Other stuff pointing to my smoking head - sorry, I have 30 yrs of experience with computers and developing software, so I will not agree with You here. Problem name is conditionally working software/features. When this happens, developer MUST contact END USER and NOT users who never user features that causes problems or worse, have ideal fresh OS installations. I have nothing to add regarding my last post. I have no time maintaning some elses development smokes, but it's easy to detect real reasons behind those smokes. Cakewalk development department will know what I'm talking about. I follow CW from the beginning, I was believer, till now. And I'll return after some time, I hope. CW idea is great. Just implementaion is not on production quality level. I'll make no upgrades to OS and my production environment till next try, because all of my business software "furniture" is working without a glitch. And then I'll upgrade CW again. And for sure, if not working, similar escapade is expected. Until then I'll work on DAW(s) that does not have such basic hiccups like introduced in last version(s) of CW.

@Robert, You are great professional, I hope You are payed from Bandlab. Because You are ideal support staff person IMHO. Thanks again. I'll contact You after some time, when I decide to return to CW.

Best wishes to all with music production :) And with Cakewalk, if works for You :) 

BR, Dare

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Best wishes for success, and thank you for the kind words. 

As it happens, I am not paid by Bandlab, nor are any of the fellow users in the forum community.  I am simply following in the footsteps of those who have gone before me - the legendary Billy Arnell comes to mind.  I have been helped countless times, over the years, by others in the user forums, and as such, am motivated to assist in areas where I can help, either through direct knowledge, or by doing some research.  I also wholeheartedly support the product, and its continued success.  The Cakewalk folks have also given me direct help many times.  There are lots of folks in the forum community that do amazing things daily, to help others, and all of it motivates me to help.

Bob Bone

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16 hours ago, mkerl said:

Acting like a troll. Can't take you seriously.

 

People who give feedback aren't trolls.  They're taking their personal time to do it, and all feedback is very useful.  Not everyone has the same personality, and people do differ re: communication styles and what aspects of the software they value more than others.

Trolling is going to a forum and posting vitriol while contributing absolutely nothing.

Basically, what you're doing.  That's your first and only post on the topic.

I can't believe people are actually upvoting that reply, either... 

@Dare Rihter Either deal with CbB the way it is, or find another product.  Most users here are complacent, because they've been using CbB for years and are willing to work around the bugs and/or lacks in the software.  That's their choice.

But you won't get far trying to give feedback.  The defensiveness kicks into high gear the minute you post anything about the software with anything but a positive and overly-diplomatic tone.  Don't feed yourself to the wolves.

Workaround are nice,  but they cease being workarounds when they go from "temporary solution" to "the status quo - for years... and years."

People seem to be treating the Feedback Forum like a Tech Support or Q&A Forum, and that isn't what it is meant to be.

Lots of the issues brought up in feedback threads have been issues for the better part of a decade or more.  Go and cross reference them with threads on the old Cakewalk forum (I did a lot of this).  This talk about the developers having decades of history of listening and delivering...  I'm a bit cynical towards that 😉

They are doing a great service to the community by maintaining this software, but that's largely all that's getting done.  The rest of the market is moving on, so if you're looking to ride that wave... this is not the product that will take you on that journey.

Also that B.S. about clean installing a PC to get software to run stable is urban legend, unless you have really bad PC Housekeeping (or routinely get malware, etc.).  Ignore that stuff.

Edited by Some Guy
Few typos...

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I agree with you, @Some Guy, that without clear indications to warrant it, that going through the extraordinary step of a complete reinstall of Windows, and all applications and such, is a pretty brutal thing to undertake, and not needed, unless things are beyond repair, or there is a drive failure, etc... (that being said, it does make sense to run some of the Windows tools to check on any broken parts of Windows - like sfc /scannow, etc....)

I do think that some looking into the state of maintenance, and of any 'tweaks' done in the attempted support of streaming audio, ARE warranted, particularly for this system, because of the lack of widespread showstoppers, and partly because of earlier comments the OP had made, about having been selective about what maintenance to apply, or words to that effect - so some examination of the system is warranted, in my opinion.

I am following this thread, and will continue monitoring the thread posts, to nip any back and forth bashing in the bud, should it get to that.  Additionally, by following the thread, if and when the OP does return to take another crack at CbB, I can be ready to assist, should he be interested in that.

Hopefully, the OP will either find some other DAW suite that can do what he needs, trouble-free, or if he returns, that any issues still causing grief can be either resolved or mitigated, again with the hope that the software can meet his needs.  :)

Bob Bone

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The chance of it being a Windows or ASIO setting are pretty slim, and those are easy to troubleshoot since Windows and most ASIO Control Panels have relatively few settings to tinker with.

It's often either in:

  • The DAW itself - which has lots of Audio-Related settings to tinker with, or
  • The Sampler/Synth/Plugin being used by the user in the project.

Your Audio settings can be flawless, but you'll run into issues if you overtax your PC or Storage.

The Reinstall Windows thing is largely a vestige from the Windows 9x days.  It's just something some people grew accustomed to doing,  and continued to do so.  Confirmation Bias and Placebo Effect also comes into play with that.

Generally all you have to do is uninstall Cakewalk and delete its Registry Trees.   Then, reinstall it. That will reset the DAW.

Chances are if your Windows OS Audio Settings, Graphics Drivers Settings, etc. are screwed up, you won't only feel this in your DAW.  For example, it's impossible for this to be the case if Cakewalk is symptomatic, but your Video Editor (NLE) is not - considering they are likely using the same pipeline for Audio (ASIO, WASAPI, or MME), among other things.

That is the first things users should check when they have issues with things like Audio.  Is anything else showing the same symptoms, or ONLY your DAW?  If the latter, than the problem typically lies in the DAW.

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Until the OP actually chooses to share details about whatever is going on that is giving him grief, nobody much can do anything to help with analysis or resolution.  He has sent some number of texts/messages/emails to support - I do not know if he and they are actively working through anything at this time.

I had seen something in one of his earlier posts, having to do with either applying or not applying, or selectively applying - system maintenance.  I do not recall if that was Windows maintenance, and/or drivers, BIOS, devices - I really am not sure.  It was because of his comments that I began to suggest doing some examination of his computer's current state of maintenance, or lack of it, or the combination of some things being maintained and some not, etc....  We never got to a point of any willingness for him to enter into any discussion about any of that.

SO - if he circles back and wants to try looking at his system, in case there is anything there that could be contributing to or causing his issues, kewl.  If not, also kewl - it is all dependent on however he wants to deal with whatever is going on.

Windows 10 does have a couple of nice things to run, diagnostically, and there is even update in place, to reset Windows while leaving the applications and data in place.  I would absolutely avoid having to do a clean reinstall of Windows, with every molecule of my being.

Bob Bone

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OP said he sent in feedback to the developers, so this is likely a culmination of frustrations. 

He won't be back, and even if he is it's likely he'll be using a different DAW, anyways. 

That's generally how these things go. 

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9 minutes ago, Some Guy said:

OP said he sent in feedback to the developers, so this is likely a culmination of frustrations. 

He won't be back, and even if he is it's likely he'll be using a different DAW, anyways. 

That's generally how these things go. 

Well, it doesn't bother me to remain following the thread, in case he chooses to come back and see if he can get things working with CbB.  I wished him the best, in any case.  Hopefully, he will circle back.  :)

There wasn't a lot of time between his joining the forums in August, until he decided support had ignored him, and had only posted 7 times at the point this thread began, so I am not sure how much of a chance the support folks had to interact with him - I do know they had some measure of communication back and forth - support posted in this thread.  Anyways, if he comes back, I will try to help him, if possible.

Bob Bone

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9 minutes ago, Robert Bone said:

Well, it doesn't bother me to remain following the thread, in case he chooses to come back and see if he can get things working with CbB.  I wished him the best, in any case.  Hopefully, he will circle back.  :)

There wasn't a lot of time between his joining the forums in August, until he decided support had ignored him, and had only posted 7 times at the point this thread began, so I am not sure how much of a chance the support folks had to interact with him - I do know they had some measure of communication back and forth - support posted in this thread.  Anyways, if he comes back, I will try to help him, if possible.

Bob Bone

People may use the software for months before they decide to join a forum. I do this routinely. I often don't join u less I have a question to ask and haven't gotten an official support response for  

That's not odd at all. 

I have used software for years before joining their forums. Most users are not on forums. 

I like to stick around and keep up on the improvements and/or updates/upgrades to see if there is anything that could potentially draw me back to a piece of software (since most of my licenses are perpetual, and upgrading is cheap), but at some point even I hit a wall where I am better off just using what I have and works for me than spending the next year doing mini-reviews on everything the industry has to offer.

That's why I said most people who don't like what the DAW has to offer are probably better off just using something else.

"Feature" requests are likely not to be fulfilled anytime soon, so the workflow isn't expected to change in any major ways in the near future.  As far as bugs, etc. it is hard to track what the developers are doing because they don't have a Bug or IssueTracker where we can submit and vote on things (like PreSonus does).

Edited by Some Guy

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1 minute ago, Some Guy said:

People may use the software for months before they decide to join a forum. I do this routinely. I often don't join u less I have a question to ask and haven't gotten an official support response for  

That's not odd at all. 

I have used software for years before joining their forums. Most users are not on forums. 

Understood - In the post the support folks had posted earlier, they had mentioned some fairly small number of support messages from the OP, and they had responded in some fashion - I was really just trying to say there hadn't been really any meaningful interaction with the forums, about whatever his issues were, so nobody here has any way of trying to help him get anything resolved, from the forums end of things.

We will see how it all works out - hopefully for him, he will find something - whether elsewhere or with CbB, that allows him to create music.  :)

Bob Bone

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16 hours ago, Some Guy said:

uninstall Cakewalk and delete its Registry Trees

I'd like to see the uninstaller delete those registry entries...

i'd also like to see the "shared utilities" be seperated, so installing a new or demo version doesn't touch the existing install, but rather installs its own version

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Hi All,

I'm not dead yet, and listening, no matter as I was addressed as "him". This time, this comment I'll accept more as joke :) Finally some more people with IMHO good comments and ideas involved in this chat. @Some Guy, thanks for analyzing and constantations, and also for enlighten people, "how these things go". I'm not cynical this time. And things goes well, without a glitch, with other DAW. But this is not my intention to repeat again, not in todays reply :)

I do not give up easily, regarding computer engineering, from hardware to software, much more complicated as Cakewalk. So i can't take seriously that somebody advice me Windows fresh install. Bad advice is worse than no advice. I will repeat again, things crashed after latest upgrades, my fault that I was blindly believe, that programers, that does not destroy with asses when they build with hands, new features. Hours of trying before I began crying about troubles. Hovever, from current standpoind, no matter, nobody has answers, that solved anything. Nor direction. But thanks anyway, It's not Your job either to support pissed off old troll, and it's impossible, if problem isn't wide enough. Only developers can do. And they decided to act different. However, this is sign, that bigger problem exists, or politics at work. In any case, unacceptable for me.

@Some Guy, I'll try AGAIN Your recipe. Maybe I missed something. And I'll report about success, when done. Configuration: Ryzen 5 2600X, 16GB, Focusrite Saffire 24 Pro. EVERY other audio and video programs including new DAW works well, with WASAPI also with no problems when sharing drivers. Typical CPU activity when troubles arrive about 12% in project with 60 tracks. Memory about 30% utilization, disk etc less than 5%. Suspected antivirus in some moment, but it wasn't. Mangling with network drivers, measuring delays etc, all at minimum etc etc, no luck. Fresh CW reinstall thinking it will help. Renamed all old possible conflicting directories. Cleared all Cakewalk registry entries. All this bussiness after the last two or 3 upgrades. Toc toc... Wrote these things to official support, no meaningful answers either. No real will to look the case at the source. So....

Have a nice musical weekend 

Dare

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7 minutes ago, Dare Rihter said:

if problem isn't wide enough. Only developers can do. And they decided to act different. However, this is sign, that bigger problem exists, or politics at work. In any case, unacceptable for me.

i think you hit the nail on the head here - there's only so much that can be done with the resources available

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Focusrite drivers have been known, in the past, for causing issues in multiple other DAWs.  So, I'd also make sure you are running a stable version of the driver.

M-Audio drivers have been quite problematic for many people, as well (as another example).

Definitely check that.  Sometimes, the latest driver version is not the best one for your interface.

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Instability is often driver related. Not always, but often enough that it needs to be ruled out 100% through methodical step-by-step troubleshooting.

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