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Adam

Arranger track

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Very excited to see the implementation of the 'Arranger track' function.  Just started playing with it and it's certainly not seamless on my system ("Create arbitrary song sections anywhere on the project timeline, then later string them together for seamless playback").  Very jerky when it jumps to different sections (an audible gap/jitter). I have a high powered system (10 core/3.5GHZ, 64 gig ram). Would be great if it truly were seamless. Good news is that when I export the arrangement the gaps/jitter is gone (but there is an audible 'click'; I'm sure if there were a crossfade option this issue could be resolved?).  Anyway, I like where this is going, but, it's not quite usable in a professional client-based context yet (I use Cakewalk in a pro studio).

cheers,

Adam

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Arrangement Preview will not be sample accurate - that's why its called preview. It will improve though if you run at low latency. Can you verify that it improves?
Depending on project load seeking to far apart sections may cause  small discontinuities. Crossfades won't solve all problems. In general arranger is a tool for editing, experimentation and composition but before getting ready for production you typically need to render it and do some clean up.

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I wouldn't expect a preview to be seemless. It's a rough example before you commit to the project being rearranged.

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4 hours ago, Adam said:

Very excited to see the implementation of the 'Arranger track' function.  Just started playing with it and it's certainly not seamless on my system ("Create arbitrary song sections anywhere on the project timeline, then later string them together for seamless playback").  Very jerky when it jumps to different sections (an audible gap/jitter). I have a high powered system (10 core/3.5GHZ, 64 gig ram). Would be great if it truly were seamless. Good news is that when I export the arrangement the gaps/jitter is gone (but there is an audible 'click'; I'm sure if there were a crossfade option this issue could be resolved?).  Anyway, I like where this is going, but, it's not quite usable in a professional client-based context yet (I use Cakewalk in a pro studio).

cheers,

Adam

Have you tried committing it then rendering?

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I have found it to be pretty intuitive. Like most things that are new, I feel like the main "bugs" i keep hearing are just based off of the fact that this is a different workflow. The glitchy behavior is to be expected at first release of anything just due to its intrinsic nature of being in a digital format. I'm sure that just like other problems we've experienced in the past there will be more improved usability. I personally love the idea and have been implementing it into my workflow already.

I did sort of a first look video here:

Having used it only a number of times I was able to navigate rather easily through the key features.

Edited by Home Studio Simplified

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On 4/25/2020 at 9:23 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

Arrangement Preview will not be sample accurate - that's why its called preview. It will improve though if you run at low latency. Can you verify that it improves?
Depending on project load seeking to far apart sections may cause  small discontinuities. Crossfades won't solve all problems. In general arranger is a tool for editing, experimentation and composition but before getting ready for production you typically need to render it and do some clean up.

My understanding of the purpose, and how I plan to use it is to give me insights into how a track would sound with different arrangements. Once I settle on one, I would use ripple edit to set it in an acceptable way.

Did I get that right?

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On 4/26/2020 at 2:24 AM, Adam said:

Certainly not seamless on my system ("Create arbitrary song sections anywhere on the project timeline, then later string them together for seamless playback").  Very jerky when it jumps to different sections (an audible gap/jitter). I have a high powered system (10 core/3.5GHZ, 64 gig ram).

Same here , I mentioned it in the thread about the update.  New DAW PC with SSD's and a 12 core CPU so not lacking in power and generally can run at 128 sample buffer although can go down to 64 on some projects if need be.

I didn't realise it was not meant to be smooth

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I intend to play with this more on the weekend but I can say this about Studio One's arranger track:

While in playback I can copy a section and insert it just a few bars ahead on the play head without a glitch in sound. IMO, Studio One's audio engine is marvelous to work in while in real time playback. And I'm on a 6 year old mobo/cpu.

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20 hours ago, razor7music said:

My understanding of the purpose, and how I plan to use it is to give me insights into how a track would sound with different arrangements. Once I settle on one, I would use ripple edit to set it in an acceptable way.

Did I get that right?

You don't need to use ripple edit. Just commit the arrangement to the project and it will automatically make all the edits for you.  At that point you may just need to fine tune the edits with slip edits or other transitions as desired.
While arrangement preview is a very useful way to audition and A/B multiple arrangements the intent of the arranger is primarily as an editing tool. In most cases preview works seamlessly and transitions are as fast as they would be when you seek to regions on the timeline. In more complex projects with lots of effects if you perceive any discontinuities bypassing effects or running at a smaller buffer size will normally alleviate this. Otherwise you can always commit the arrangement at which time it is "flattened" to the timeline with no jumps.

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19 hours ago, Bapu said:

I intend to play with this more on the weekend but I can say this about Studio One's arranger track:

While in playback I can copy a section and insert it just a few bars ahead on the play head without a glitch in sound. IMO, Studio One's audio engine is marvelous to work in while in real time playback. And I'm on a 6 year old mobo/cpu.

Maybe you misunderstood. The arrangement can freely be modified during playback with no interruptions. You can add new sections, reorder, delete, duplicate, all on the fly during playback.

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20 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Same here , I mentioned it in the thread about the update.  New DAW PC with SSD's and a 12 core CPU so not lacking in power and generally can run at 128 sample buffer although can go down to 64 on some projects if need be.

I didn't realise it was not meant to be smooth

If you are running at 128 samples you likely won't notice any perceivable delays. Performance is project specific however.

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23 hours ago, Home Studio Simplified said:

I have found it to be pretty intuitive. Like most things that are new, I feel like the main "bugs" i keep hearing are just based off of the fact that this is a different workflow. The glitchy behavior is to be expected at first release of anything just due to its intrinsic nature of being in a digital format. I'm sure that just like other problems we've experienced in the past there will be more improved usability. I personally love the idea and have been implementing it into my workflow already.

I did sort of a first look video here:

Having used it only a number of times I was able to navigate rather easily through the key features.

@Home Studio Simplified thanks for checking out the arranger. A small tip - while you can certainly use the main sections pane to also audition arrangements its designed to primarily store and manipulate the master list of sections in the project. i.e. if you have 4 parts A-A-B-A for a song, you would only need 2 sections in the section list.
Where you would create the repetitions would be in the arranger pane below by dragging 3 instances of A and one of B into it. IOW you do arrangements in the arrangements pane and manipulate blocks of data on the project timeline using the sections pane. Hope this clarifies the workflow.

Also saving or making multiple arrangements in the arrangements pane has no effect on the sections pane itself. Its saving different variations or combinations of the sections themselves. You should normally not need to reorder sections in the sections pane unless of course you want to move the project data on the timeline. 
In any case everyone will have their own workflow to use this feature... 

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On 5/2/2020 at 1:26 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

If you are running at 128 samples you likely won't notice any perceivable delays. Performance is project specific however.

I've done some more testing, the gap/jump  is very noticable at 128 samples. So then I froze every track of the 38 in the project and eventually bypassed all FX so I could try different sample buffer sizes.

The only setting I found it to be anything approaching  imperceivable on is a sample buffer of 16. Even at 32  samples it doesn't pay the kick drum properly that's at the start of any sections that are out of their original order.   

Obviously the CPU usage is too high to use it in this way , I'll try it on another project as I'm usually writing a couple of new ones each week.

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4 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@Mark Morgon-Shaw would you be able to share your project so we can do some analysis?

I can't really as it's a piece that's been exclusively signed to a Library I work with but I can try it again on something else or find on older non-exclusive track.

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6 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

I can't really as it's a piece that's been exclusively signed to a Library I work with but I can try it again on something else or find on older non-exclusive track.

They don't need the entire project.

You could cut it down to the part that gaps/jumps the most. I.e. crop the project down to a ten second long section. Make sure it's still exhibiting the same behaviour.

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8 hours ago, Davydh said:

They don't need the entire project.

You could cut it down to the part that gaps/jumps the most. I.e. crop the project down to a ten second long section. Make sure it's still exhibiting the same behaviour.

Yeah but it technically belongs to someone else now and I've signed a Schedule A for it. ]

It's fine I do lots of music each month 

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15 hours ago, David Baay said:

@Noel Borthwick what should we expect when using plugins that induce a lot of PDC?

Delay is computed at playback start time so I wouldn't expect it to be impacted by this.
Arranger uses similar mechanics to seeking on the timeline. If setting the now time during playback is not responsive then arranger preview will show similar symptoms.

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2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Delay is computed at playback start time so I wouldn't expect it to be impacted by this.

I'll have to do some more testing to confirm, but it seems PDC can have an effect. Disabling two instances of LP plugins and one of Transient Shaper eliminated glitching in one project I checked, and disabling only two of them had no effect. PDC had to be completely eliminated to eliminate the glitch in this case. 

Also, since timeline-seeking is involved, the OP might want to check the setting of 'Set Now Time with Full Restart' in the Track View Options menu. Having this enabled can cause glitches in manual timeline-seeking.

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