Olaf

Thanks for the tip. It's strange that that "none" option existed in the sends - there's no such bus in the project, to be routed to no hardware output. And all buses are routed to the Master. Maybe the send to "none" option should not be available in the send menu - as it doesn't seem to do anything. If you want to keep a send, but disabled, you can just turn it off. If you don't need it at all you can delete it. So it seems all possibilities are already covered.

Thanks, man, great explanation! I hope the bugs get fixed over the next releases.

To be honest I don't understand myself what the difference is between a two node linear change - which is my normal way of working with envelopes, so didn't think twice about it - and one node jump changes. At first I thought jump changes were a defect 😆, and the node missing was due to a bug. It looks a little confusing.

That's exactly what it was. I removed it last night, and now the problem's gone away.

I know, that's what it's supposed to do, but it doesn't do it. If you notice in the video, it inserts an entirely different wave clip - I don't know how it chooses the particular one - in the slip space. So, instead of having a boundary between two clips, you now have three. It's just normal envelope editing, same as with gain envelopes, pan, or anything else. It's a linear tempo change, according to the instructions: https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Tempo.07.html#1999891 and https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Tempo.04.html. You can see there're two nodes on a number of tempo changes, in the tutorial images, too. I don't believe it processes the two nodes as being exactly at the same timestamp, though, I think that's just the graphic representation, that would be the logical assumption. That how it should be, at least - adjacent, distanced by the smallest timeline resolution. In any case, it shouldn't create a third node. Thanks for confirming. I've moved the clip on a different lane, exactly to show that there is no clip underneath it, or to either side - usually invisible clip fragments would prevent the edit, but it's not the case here. The weird thing is that if you leave it alone, and do some other operations, you come back to it, and the slip works again.

After installing Update 1, I've had the following problem. An audio track that is routed to the Master is detected as assigned to an unused hardware output, on project load. Of course the track is not silent, and it plays alright, because it's not routed to any hardware output, but that's how it's recognized. And I've started having audio dropouts - I believe the code is 19. False Silent Output.mp4

@Noel Borthwick New finds, while working on the project. So it's all these things. I hope all these details are telling , so maybe I won't need to add different ones - they're all in the vein of the main phenomena described here. These are the latest. Resizing a clip inserts a portion of a different clip in the resize space, and moving a tempo envelope segment always creates new nodes where the initial node was. Moving Tempo Env Segment Adds New Node & Resizing Audio Clip Splits It.mp4 The node values are displayed inverted in the tempo envelope. Value Display Order Inversion in Tempo Envelope.mp4 Clip resizing becomes unresponsive, for some reason. It's happened several times in the past. Clip Trimming Unresponsive.mp4

Thanks a lot, I'll check them all out. Weirdly enough, even though I have a ton of plugins in the project (about 90, including the sends and the synths), all of them almost exclusively serve one purpose, that of mirroring recording in a real room, through consoles, to tape. That's it. So I have room/studio reverbs, consoles, summers, transformers, tapes, etc. Plus the amps. It's true to that you have to pay special attention to keep the levels constant when going into bus saturation, clipping and/or compression, so I try to do that. If not, a lot of the mud will come from exactly the master bus, and I found that out the hard way, several times. The misleading part is that what you think helps you, on a certain day, cause it thins out the honk, for instance, you realize adds a lot of bloatware lower down, that you weren't focusing on, when you listen to it the next day, with fresh ears. But I keep them on the mix bus, because I feel that without them, things don't have the necessary depth, roundness, glue and rich texture, and since they're gonna be there at the end, I think it's better to make all the EQ/compression/saturation moves through them. That's an interesting thought. I know there are some plugins out there that can do de-saturation, but I don't think they work on complex sources, and if the remaster was done in the 90s, they wouldn't have been available. My version is plenty analog, and it sounds great - except for the cymbals, which sound like they've been recorded separately - it just has that focused sound, with smooth, but more metallic transients - that I believe comes from clipping. I've tried that on the master bus, and that's exactly the effect it had. And I was thinking about consoles, and how people drive them, and how much gain they can take, whereas plugins seem to have a very narrow sweet spot, usually within a few fractions of a db - certainly smaller than what consoles seem to have. And I was thinking about why that was, and about that sound consoles put out, where, when driven, they seem to get these exact characteristics - punch, smooth, brilliant attack, less dynamics, and a cleaning up of the low mids, instead of swelling them, like plugins do - that clipping generates. And it dawned on me that maybe the reason for which they can get away with so much saturation, and so much drive, and have a wider sweet spot, is exactly that - that they push the signal into clipping. So I figured I'd give it a try. I've tried an experiment, if anybody's interested. Listening test, to see if you can spot the differences, or it's just my self-suggestion. I've exported the same song snippet in three versions, one with no clipping added, the 2nd with clipping on the master bus, and the 3rd with clipping on each track - except the piano. Note that I've gone VERY easy on the clipping, so the differences are very subtle. I'm curious if you can hear the differences among them, and what those differences are. I think the result would be the same, while recording in a loop, even with punch regions, cause you'd still go over the previous takes - because of the loop. I just wish it didn't split the previous takes automatically. On some projects it doesn't, but I haven't identified the setting. Do you know, by chance, how to set that up?

Hey Craig, thanks a lot for the advice! I really appreciate your audio knowledge, and have read a lot of your articles. I am interested in workarounds, but where I also need to move the parts around, to various structure variants, and adjust the tempo accordingly, very frequently, I think the process of exporting everything and reopening it separately might be very cumbersome. I've adopted manually stretching every clip for now - it's still a lot more cumbersome than just readjusting the tempo and have the clips follow along, but at least it solves the alignment issue, and it seems the simplest, under the circumstances. I'd like to pick your brain on one issue, though. I use a lot of warmers in my mix - console channels on every track, a console bus emulator on the two-bus, for the summing, plus a transformer and crossover emulator, tapes on everything, and the end result is warm, and thick, with a good stereo image, the harshness rounded off, all good and well, but then I listen to Berlin - Marillion, which I have as a reference track for this mix, and everything seems to be so focused in their mix, no flab, with a lot more net, yet not harsh, transients, whereas mine seem pasty and diffuse, bloated, and grainy - a smooth grain, but still - it has a "grey" sound. Would clippers help on every track? - I've got a clipper on the maser bus, cause it does have that type of effect - netter - more of a metallic brilliance, but without harshness - transients, and it sucks in the gut. You do seem to have that kind of transients in your Youtube project, do you mix through a console? Nice songs, I detect a little bit of a Mike Oldfield guitar in there, Bryan Ferry vocals - who's singing? - and a little Pink Floyd mood combined with a Brit sound. I like the guitar sound at 10:10. Real amp, right? Did you play everything? My favorites are "My butterfly" and "Goodbye to you".

Hey, Will! Normally, stretching the clip would proportionally stretch the wave content along with the edge you're stretching and in proportion to the clip length, not slide it inside inside the clip like that. And it would do it as you change the stretch value, not on trim. What's in the video it does even without stretch enabled, and with "follow project tempo" on. If you want to check out the project, follow this link, I've aligned the clips via stretch for about half the project, around 3:55, it starts to be out of sync again, for the next two parts - I had those aligned, too, but slowed down the tempo again, by a bit. It's the same recordings, only I've bounced a few clips, after having them aligned, and it's a little less embarrassing 🙄. Same improvised vocals, recorded on the phone. https://we.tl/t-d4aBu8cIEt Yeah, I agree with you. Ever since the new export dialog, I can't export a song in the same session I've been mixing - it only exports some of the audio tracks completely unprocessed, and ignores everything else. I need to reopen the project every time before export, and redo all the setting that it doesn't remember. Very frustrating. Every time I open a single take track - after comping, I like to keep everything on one lane - it arbitrarily creates a second lane and it automatically distributes the clips between them. Another thing that bugs like hell is that when you record a new take it automatically splits all the takes in the parallel lanes, at the point where you stop recording. I have to manually remove the clips before it and resize them all, and if you're recording in a loop, the splits are very small and you have to zoom in, cause you can't grab them, and so on. Do it after every single take. It doesn't do it in all projects, and I have no idea what prompts this behavior. I've changed all the settings in the comping settings, no change. Very frustrating. Absolutely agree with you.

You'd be surprised to know - I know I was - that certain mp4 encodings take far less space than GIF files, so it's actually more space efficient to save them that way. These videos all add up to a few megs, so I'm well within the quota. When it's exceeded, I'll delete them. Fingers crossed these (huge) problems get solved by then. Thank you for the advice, I can't use it, though, since my problem is having different tempos on different parts - and not definite ones, at that - which I need to move around and tempo adjust to fit the new places in the song. So exporting everything as single take stems is exactly what I can't do. But I've settled on a definite structure - still think I may need to adjust the tempo on one part, though, but nothing major. Just hand stretch until it sounds as "right" as it can, and then rely on Melodyne for the final touches.

@Noel Borthwick continued Select Tempo envelope node unavailable on hover over node + Draw click on node deletes different node Select Tempo Envelope Node Unavailable + Draw Click On Node Deletes Different Node DEF.mp4 Moving Arranger section fails if a wave clip exceeds the section area, and moving Arranger clip doesn't move the Tempo nodes. Moving Arranger Section Fails with Wave Clip Exceeding Section & Moving Arranger Clip Doesn't Move Tempo Change DEF.mp4 EDIT: added these two clips: Comp trimming clips trims the start of the next clip. Comp Trim Trims Next Clip Start DEF.mp4 Comp Trimming a clip moves the wave content inside the clip. Comp Trim Moves Clip Content DEF.mp4

No, it actually involves performing some simple math. It knows what the current tempo is, it knows what the new tempos is, just needs to recalculate the clip length by multiplying it by the ratio between the two. That said, @Jimbo 88, @David Baay, thanks a lot for your input. I gave up trying to use "follow project tempo", and just used clip stretch instead. Tried to match the clip end to the normal grid line, and it worked relatively well. Not 100%, cause the stretch ratio only has 1 decimal, but close enough. And on that happy note, I've finally managed to decide on a song structure. Still have a little rearranging to do, for the new section order, but nothing spectacular. @Noel Borthwick I have some new irregular behavior clips, working with the Arranger and the Tempo Track. "Arranger Exclude" is permanently unchecked in the Tempo Lane. Tempo envelope nodes not copied with Arranger sections Copying Arranger section doesn't copy Tempo change & doesn't observe track order. Pressing DEL with Arranger Section copied attempts to deletes Synth Drawing node on Tempo envelope deletes different node Nodes Not Copied With Arranger Sections DEF.mp4 Copy Arranger Section Doesn't Copy Tempo Change & Doesn't Observe Track Order & Press DEL Deletes Synth DEF.mp4 Draw Node On Tempo Envelope Deletes Different Node DEF.mp4

Thanks!

Thanks, I have them both on Elastique Pro, and that's the behavior I get. @Noel Borthwick Here is the project download link, as a .zip file, The project file is inside the folder. I couldn't export it as a bundle project, because it's got the clip stretching active on many of them. https://we.tl/t-84601Ma8Vt The vocal is a sketch recording on the phone, in gibberish, so pay no particular attention to it. There are all sorts of weird clip behaviors, as well, related to trimming, resizing, once "follow project tempo" is activated. You can find the gifs I've made here: https://we.tl/t-bk0LP7aW8q If you can't make sense of something, or have questions, shoot me a message. There's also irregular behavior that I've noted before with Softube Tape, which then stopped after a few updates, and now happens with all kinds of plugins - namely various transport related commands (stop & play, or moving the playhead/cursor on the timeline during play) reset or move the parameters within the plugins around, It almost makes me reluctant to stop playing or move along the timeline. These plugins are: Embertone Sensual Saxophone (Kontakt 6.7) - resets the "*****" parameter = play velocity, reverb & distortion; Waves H-EQ - EQ bands jump up randomly; Sonimus SonEQ - resets the parameters to 0. They're all documented in the Gif folder. There's also the recurring problem of the Arranger Track not showing on project open, sometimes not even the Tempo Track, and having to be rechecked every time. Variety of Sound NastyDLA Wet only setting is not remembered. The Browser/Synth Rack/Help window sizes and order in the right side dock are not remembered. Very rarely either of these settings will be remembered, but I couldn't tell you how and why. If these were solved in the next releases, that would be a massive improvement. Thanks!

in many instances, they could be named and made to be accessed more intuitively.

yes, i agree that every setting or choice that you make for your project should be saved with it, no matter how small or in relation to what.

Thanks, I was thinking of something along the same lines, but couldn't figure it out. I'll take a closer look at what you said, later, and try it step by step - and get back to you.

that's a good idea, but i've got guitar solos in there, and vocals, and those are hard to emulate. i've grabbed the bull by the balls, and went old style: assessed a tempo for each part, on the fly, hoped it'd work, took a deep breath and re-recorded everything, except for the bass, which i'll have to redo later. if i later decide they don't work, it's back to the drawing board. but i might simplify my life for the clean guitar arpeggios.

Thanks, I'll render a project file with the audio embedded, and send it to you. Happy holidays!

Ultimately, it should be able to stretch audio right when changing the tempo on different parts - without resizing, trimming issues, clip jumps, doubling clips, etc. These are things that shoulnd't normally happen, regardless of the workflow. Most DAWs do that, certainly Reaper and Reason do it well, CW does it, too, officially, except that it doesn't work.

Thanks, I took your advice, and it worked like a charm. 👍 I've replaced all the webp files with gif links.

https://giphy.com/channel/Tryggvasson for those who about to comment before seeing what the problem is - for terror of getting infected.

If this poor implementation of things it actually purports to do were changed, it would actually be my DAW of choice, but this way many functions which are actual functions of the DAW - so they shouldn't be a stretch - are barely functional. I've tried various stuff - Harrison, Reaper, after coming from Reason, but all have their limitations. They don't misbehave like that, but are limited or overcomplicated in other things. I'll look into them some more. Still waiting for Luna for Windows. Reaper actually has a knob by which you can vary the tempo - absolutely no issues - no clip rearangements, no trimming problems, no clips jumping 500 bars, no nothing. I normally do, until the guy gets butthurt that "he was doing it wrong" - it was about him after two lines - with an answer that didn't address the problem in the first place. You know, dropping by just to let people know they're doing things wrong - without knowing what they're actually doing, or bothering to check what the problem is - and he's doing them right 😉. Hey, @bdickens congrats, man! @InstrEd This IS preproduction for me. You get to decide on tempos beforehand when you have a band to rehearse with, and have all the parts and structure figured out before recording. That's how I did it, too, when I was in a band - and if the guy had left smugness aside, he would have known that's normal - nothing revolutionary about it. But since I record everything myself, the playback in the DAW IS my band, and rearranging parts and playing them at different tempos is exactly how I can replicate figuring the parts out with "my band" - especially this song that comes out in pieces - the hardest to take shape of all my work - and now impossible, thanks to CW not working. But regardless of all this, I don't think giving advice on your workflow - even if doable or relevant - is needed to justify reporting bugs in the program 😳. I fail to see how those (huge) bugs would be alright on a different workflow. It's like some people want the programs to work badly, just so they can prove some (imaginary) point. Egos get inflated, the problem stays. Anybody want it fixed? I do. And, objectively, I think it should be.

Unfortunately, not knowing - or even caring - what something is doesn't stop people having opinions on it these days. You'd think people would know that. At the very least, not imagine somebody is posting stuff on the forum just "to infect their computers" - probably protected by three separate antiviruses. If do, at least not imagine opinions. I've tried to upload them as GIFs first, but the upload failed. AVIs are too large, so this was a compromise solution. I've thought about it, too, on several issues, but they get repeated on different Windows versions, and different hardware. Besides, it's hard to imagine that that sort of behavior, if you check it out, could be caused by anything other than CW itself.