Layering and/or splitting multi Vst's in Cakewalk

[bertus weyers]

I really hope someone can give me advice.

I recently started working with CbB and find it very useful although confusing.

I have worked with Fruity Loops demo up to now but now need to record. I used the layering tool in FL Studio for live playing multi VST instruments.

I have asked around if there is a similar function in CbB but nobody seems to know if this is possible..

 All I want to know is if this can be done and how? My question is:  If I want to play for instance  an orchestra Vst from key C3 to C5 and single viola from C5 to C8 how do I set it up?

Please forgive the mumbo jumbo, I have no music background or knowledge of the terminology and only started playing keyboard a few months ago.

If someone can give me advice, step by step, on how to do this I would appreciate it a lot. To make it clear what I need to do please refer to the attached screenshot.

Regards.

[User 905133]

16 hours ago, bertus weyers said:

 My question is:  If I want to play for instance  an orchestra Vst from key C3 to C5 and single viola from C5 to C8 how do I set it up?

I have never used it, but maybe the MFX [Midi FX] Event Filter might help to route different note ranges to different soft synths. 

Edit: Before today I never used it, but the MFX [Midi FX] Event Filter can be used to route note ranges to the same or different soft synths.

Sorry.  If it can be done using the Midi Even Filter to route incoming midi data to VSTis, I haven't been able to figure out how.

See below for other options per scook and for the "Proof of Concept" marked up screen shot.

Edited December 5, 2019 by User 905133
to update post with results--it CAN be done :-)

[scook]

Yes, multiple MIDI tracks with different MIDI Event Filter settings will work

 Drum maps can route notes to different synths. Although called drum maps, their use is not restricted to drums.

Also, some hardware keyboards have zones for this too.

[User 905133]

 

1 hour ago, scook said:

Yes, multiple MIDI tracks with different MIDI Event Filter settings will work

Thanks for confirming this.  I have one range (C2 to C4) going to an instance of TTS-1 on a single midi channel.  I will try another range to create a second zone.  (I am more used to setting up zones on usb keyboards!)  OK.  Got two different ranges going to two different channels on TTS-1. 

Addendum: with overlapping ranges you can get layering.

Thanks for asking about this @bertus weyers and thanks for the suggestions @scook This technique fits in with a couple of personal project templates I have been working on.

Edited December 5, 2019 by User 905133
To add a "Proof of Concept" example (markedt up screen shot)

[Robert Bone]

Yes - per scook's posted info, you can set things like that up - I would suggest you look at a VST hosting program, called Cantabile, for controlling layered sounds from multiple VST synths, as it is specifically designed for live performance where layered sounds from multiple VST synths are created as snapshots, and then you can switch instantly from combination of sounds and effects to different combinations of sounds and effects, all with zero delay in changing from one snapshot to the next.

The have a free trial available.  I use Cantabile all the time for live performance - I used to use a functionally similar program, called Forte, from Brainspawn, but they went out of business, so I switched to using Cantabile for live performance using VSTi's.

Cakewalk CAN do some things for live performance, however it is a bit unwieldy to switch to different combinations of layered sounds, as Cakewalk is really best suited for its strengths - recording/mixing/mastering, which is excels at.

VST hosting performance software, such as Cantabile, is much more capable for layering sounds and switching between combos of layered sounds, and can provide pretty much instantaneous switching between complex layers and routing, even with using sample-based sounds.

Please understand I am not trying to take away anything from Cakewalk - I LOVE Cakewalk, and have used it since the days of DOS and Twelve Tone Systems.  And, I am not suggesting abandoning the use of Cakewalk - all I am saying is that for live performance, it is rather unwieldy to bring along all of the recording engine and editing overhead of Cakewalk to a live performance.  Yes, you can perform live with Cakewalk - I just think it is not what it is best at, and you can have a vastly greater setup for live performance, using programs such as Cantabile.

Bob Bone

[User 905133]

39 minutes ago, Robert Bone said:

Yes - per scook's posted info, you can set things like that up - I would suggest you look at a VST hosting program, called Cantabile, for controlling layered sounds from multiple VST synths, as it is specifically designed for live performance where layered sounds from multiple VST synths are created as snapshots, and then you can switch instantly from combination of sounds and effects to different combinations of sounds and effects, all with zero delay in changing from one snapshot to the next.

The have a free trial available.  I use Cantabile all the time for live performance - I used to use a functionally similar program, called Forte, from Brainspawn, but they went out of business, so I switched to using Cantabile for live performance using VSTi's.

Cakewalk CAN do some things for live performance, however it is a bit unwieldy to switch to different combinations of layered sounds, as Cakewalk is really best suited for its strengths - recording/mixing/mastering, which is excels at.

VST hosting performance software, such as Cantabile, is much more capable for layering sounds and switching between combos of layered sounds, and can provide pretty much instantaneous switching between complex layers and routing, even with using sample-based sounds.

Please understand I am not trying to take away anything from Cakewalk - I LOVE Cakewalk, and have used it since the days of DOS and Twelve Tone Systems.  And, I am not suggesting abandoning the use of Cakewalk - all I am saying is that for live performance, it is rather unwieldy to bring along all of the recording engine and editing overhead of Cakewalk to a live performance.  Yes, you can perform live with Cakewalk - I just think it is not what it is best at, and you can have a vastly greater setup for live performance, using programs such as Cantabile.

Bob Bone

OK, you convinced me. I looked at Cantable again.  It looks like they have a fair number of issues, complaints, feature requests, etc.  That being said, I didn't see any verbal abuse of staff or users who like Cantable. For the time being, I will stick with a known quantity, even if it seems to be optimized for non-live uses. 

[Robert Bone]

3 hours ago, User 905133 said:

OK, you convinced me. I looked at Cantable again.  It looks like they have a fair number of issues, complaints, feature requests, etc.  That being said, I didn't see any verbal abuse of staff or users who like Cantable. For the time being, I will stick with a known quantity, even if it seems to be optimized for non-live uses. 

I liked the product called Forte, better than Cantabile - too bad they went out of business a couple of years back.  Cantabile works OK for me, it is just different in how to set up the layering and such, so the terminology is different, but it seems to work OK for what I do.  Kewl that you checked it out - whatever works for you is what is best for you, and if Cakewalk meets your needs for live use, that would be kewl.  Best of luck and success with whatever path you follow.  There may also be additional VST hosting software for Windows - just not aware of any, but I have not looked either.  When you get yourself all figured out love to hear back how it is all working for you.

Bob Bone

 

[bertus weyers]

Thank you all for the positive input into my request. After weeks of frustration I finally got what I needed. You have made an old man very grateful and happy!

Tried the midi event filter and it works well enough for me to use, 

@scook and @Robert Bone, thank you for the suggestions. I have looked at Cantabile, basically same as FL studio but only a trial version. I will rather stay with Cakewalk, as I cannot afford any paid for DAW. (Unemployed and NO source of income).

I will definitely pick your brains again in the future.

Next question: How to I change the octave? I tried the transpose FX (as per another user on Youtube), but this only changes the pitch and ends up being another key altogether.

Any suggestions?

Regards.

[Robert Bone]

On 12/6/2019 at 4:07 AM, bertus weyers said:

Thank you all for the positive input into my request. After weeks of frustration I finally got what I needed. You have made an old man very grateful and happy!

Tried the midi event filter and it works well enough for me to use, 

@scook and @Robert Bone, thank you for the suggestions. I have looked at Cantabile, basically same as FL studio but only a trial version. I will rather stay with Cakewalk, as I cannot afford any paid for DAW. (Unemployed and NO source of income).

I will definitely pick your brains again in the future.

Next question: How to I change the octave? I tried the transpose FX (as per another user on Youtube), but this only changes the pitch and ends up being another key altogether.

Any suggestions?

Regards.

If you open the Track Inspector ('I') you can change the midi notes up or down, for a selected midi track, as shown below (-12 would be down one octave,  + 12 would be up an octave):

[Robert Bone]

Forgot to add - I generally use my midi controller's Transpose buttons, to go up or down an octave at a time, but the above will also raise or lower the midi note numbers for the midi track you are altering the Key+ parameter for.

Also, you could likely transpose up or down an octave, within many/most synth plugins themselves.

Bob Bone

[Jim Fogle]

Another possibility is to use a patch player like Sforzando.  It is an insert VSTi that plays soundfonts or acidized wave files .  https://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando.html

Here is a link to many free patches:  https://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando-banks.html

[bertus weyers]

Thank you everyone for the input. Much appreciated.

@Robert Bone; Tried your suggestion, works great.

@ Jim Fogle; Thanks for the advice. Used to have Plogue Alter ego but not what I really wanted ( Marie Ork).  Also used the Garritan Vst but the free sounds are really terrible. The others on offer at the site are paid for Vst's which I cannot afford. But thanks for the suggestion.

 At the moment I use free Vst's, some fair to reasonable. others really unrealistic. But the SI strings in Cakewalk are nice enough to work with if you tweak it a bit. Same with Spitfire LABS. I also use Edirol from time to time but it has a very irritating problem: it's got a "whooshing" sound. ie the sound comes and goes and is not constant. I tried everything I could think of; EQ, LP, HP, Wet/Dry, etc but the problem still persists. Which is a pity because the orchestral sounds are very nice. Also use Sonatina VST but mainly for the percussion and Timpani sounds.

Would like to have the better VST's out there like ReFx, Hollywood strings, Voices of Opera etc but for now I am content with what I have. Love the big orchestral sounds ala Has Zimmer (Mozart of the 21st century!)

By the way, the inspiration for me deciding to start playing keyboard comes from a you tube site which I discovered a while ago;- Telmo Gama. Check it out.

Regards.

 

 

[Robert Bone]

There is a free sampler out there TX16Wx, and Kontakt is on sale right now, as are other software collections, such as the V Collection from Arturia.  There is also a boatload of sounds in the Korg Wavestation and M1, and the M1 comes with not only every single M1 factory sound on any expansion card (like 17 of them if memory serves), it also can play (and comes with) the complete T1 series of sounds, because both the M1 and the T1 used the same sound engine.

https://www.korguser.net/Login.asp?LAN=1&main=101 (Korg M1 page - not sure if they have a free trial or not - I happen to love it)

Native Instruments has a free Kontakt Player that has a few sounds in it, as part of their starter collection: 

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/bundles/komplete-start/ 

Bob Bone

[bertus weyers]

Good day again,

Thanks for all the advice.

There are quite a lot of free VST's that are made for Kontakt. Have looked at some of them but most of the really free (decent sounding) one's are only compatible with the full Kontakt version, not the trial. So I cannot use them.

I still have the problem with some of my VST's that's making the awful "whooshing" (or pulsating) sound that I don't know how to fix. They are all 32-bit versions so I can only assume that that's the problem. I have downloaded JBridge (as per some advice on a previous query) but it doesn't seem to work. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly, as I cannot find any installation guide. 

Any suggestions please?

Another problem I have with Cakewalk is the TTS-1 synth. Every time I try to use it it crashes and dumps the file. Then I have to start all over. What I have found is that, when I delete this TTS-1 file and reinstall it again it works again, but only for that one session. Next time the same thing happens.

Any and all help will be appreciated.

Regards

Bertus.

[bertus weyers]

Hi all,

PLEASE HELP!!

I'm becoming very desperate and don't know what to do anymore.

My problem still lies with the 32 bit VST's that I use. Cannot get Cakewalk to read all of them.

 What I don't understand is that some of the 32 bit VST's work well in Cakewalk (like Edirol and Sonatina) but DSK instrument VST's just don't open.

I have even tried to install other effects (Like JBridge and minihost) but to no avail, problem still persists .

PLEASE HELP!!

Regards

Bertus.

[User 905133]

4 hours ago, bertus weyers said:

 What I don't understand is that some of the 32 bit VST's work well in Cakewalk (like Edirol . . . .

Do you have the old Edirol VSC working in Cakewalk under Windows 10?  If so, I'd love to be able to have that.  I have tried several methods and cannot get it installed.  How did you do it? (Or are you talking about a different Edirol?) Thanks.

[scook]

I just download the 64bit version of DSK The Grand

It comes as a zip file.

I unzipped the file into C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Vstplugins where it created a DSK The Grand - win64 folder

Started CbB which is set to automatic background scan so, the new DSK plug-in was scanned.

Created a new project, added the DSK The Grand with an instrument track and the plug-in worked OK.

Which DSK plug-ins are a problem?

In general, when a manufacturer supplies a 64bit version  of their plug-ins, it is best to use them instead of the 32bit versions. Furthermore, retiring plug-ins that are only offered as 32bit is a good idea. The 32bit platform was old 10 years ago and support for 32bit plug-ins is practically non-existent. If a manufacturer has abandoned their plug-ins by not updating them to 64bit, that should tell the user something.

 

 

[bertus weyers]

On 12/14/2019 at 6:09 PM, User 905133 said:

Do you have the old Edirol VSC working in Cakewalk under Windows 10?  If so, I'd love to be able to have that.  I have tried several methods and cannot get it installed.  How did you do it? (Or are you talking about a different Edirol?) Thanks.

Hi,

I downloaded it from here, hope this is what you are looking for.

The only problem I have with it is that the strings have a pulsating sound which is quite annoying,

 If you experience the same problem please let me know.

Regards

Bertus

https://www.scribd.com/document/322491256/Edirol-HQ-Orchestral-VSTi-v1-03-TEAM-TALIO-PC-90-MB-rtf

[bertus weyers]

Hi,

re: DSK VST's.

I have a problem with ALL of them; Synthopia, Ethereal Pads, Choir etc.

I even went back to Cakewalk filing structure and created a "VST plugin" subfolder with these vst's in it. Same problem. All of my 32 bit VST's are in this folder in Cakewalk under the Program files. As you can see, some of them plays well, it's just DSK that won't open

Maybe something with my operating system?  Intelcore i3 5005u CPU@ 2.00 GHz; 4Gb Ram.

Maybe time to change to 64 bit Vst's but cannot find any free out there like the Ethereal pads and Synthopia. Which is a pity, sounds quite nice (to me anyway).

Regards

Bertus

[scook]

Some plug-ins made with SynthEdit try to write into the folder where the plug-in is installed. Normally modern Windows OSes do not allow regular users to write into "C:\Program Files."

There are a few ways to deal with plug-ins that write into their install folder: 

•  Install the plug-ins in an area that does not require elevated privileges. Some create a folder off the root (ex: C:\VST32) for these plug-ins
• Some modify the permissions of the the folder in Program Files
• Some run the DAW as administrator. Sometimes this only needs to happen once for a SynthEdit plug-ins so that it can unpack the files in the dll.