12 string Guitar??

[Sock Monkey]

I don't normally need guitar parts for my songs but this is a special project where I want the midi to have a 12 string guitar riff. The song is an old folk song 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfxgbsXeTdE

I what is a good rabbit hole to go down. I don't mind paying a little bit but not like over $100.

Or can I simply manipulate Ample Guitar lite and double up on the strings and put them out of tune! 

I just demoed a bunch of offerening and they all sound like Harpsicords not guitars. The Steinberg one was $149 and it was terrible! 

And a warning, I hate Kontakt last time I tried it it kept crashing. 

[T Boog]

2 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

I want the midi to have a 12 string guitar riff

Forgive me Sock, I know u asked specifically about midi. But since u play guitar too, I wanted to make sure u knew about Nashville tuning... Where u string a normal 6 string guitar with only the high strings from a 12 string pack and then double the regular guitar part. This is what I do since I don't own a 12 string guitar. It sounds just like a 12 string but it allows u to play more complex parts with ease. You could also double the Ample midi guitar part using this technique and I bet it'd sound pretty convincing. Again, not what u asked about but I wanted to make sure u were familiar with it.

Btw, 12 string packs usually aren't much more expensive than 6 string packs. So since I  own only one acoustic, I always buy 12 strings packs. And when I need a 12 string part, I string up the high/octave strings for Nashille tuning, record the part, then throw away the high strings and replace them with the remaining normal 6 strings. So there's practically no extra expense. And if u own a second acoustic, u could always leave it strung up for Nashville tuning so it's ready to go. Anyway, Cheers bud 👍

[Sock Monkey]

 I have both a 12 string Electric as well as a terribly hard to play 1978 Yamaha 12 string. It's been a wall decoration for 5 decades! 

 I  did the Nashville tuning  about a year ago to one of my Strat copies.. It's kinda cool. But,  The guitar saw little use.  I have since restrung it with a super heavy guage set and it's tuned a whole step down. That gets lots of use. E chord is a D and so on. Like a capo in reverse. 

The reason I wanted this sound is for a backing track and I want that 12 string riff like you'll hear in the video but I really don't want to take a 12 string to gigs just to play 1 song. I will still play along with it on my 6 string. If you look at the album covers for New Christy Minstrels they have about 10 acoustic guitars sometimes!! 

I managed to get close by first copying the audio riff in the intro to Ample Guitar so I got the midi notes. I fixed the timing and added the octave notes. Melodyne didn't detect that.  I then ran it through Airs Chorus.  It's pretty good. Then I doubled up using the 12 string from Dim Pro. That was disappointing  as a 12 sting but its only plays one note, there should be the octave. All the 12 string samples I listened to were like that. 

[T Boog]

25 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

The reason I wanted this sound is for a backing track

Yeah, when I left that comment I wasnt considering u need it for a backing track. 

Ive never used backing tracks live. Can I ask why u personally need midi live vs audio backing tracks? Do u have diff singers sometimes come up where u need to change keys? Or maybe u enjoy switching up arrangements on the fly? Im curious the diff ways u take advantage of midi tracks live.

[Sock Monkey]

I haven’t used midi live since my Atari died in 2004. 
I make backing tracks using midi instruments and export them as 48/24 Wave files. They are set in stone. Midi live was a nightmare for me. My stereo tracks have never let me down. 
 

The reason I use only midi instruments is then all my tracks are consistent over time. 
There’s no way to record real bass so that it is exactly the same level and sound every single time. Especially over the 20 some odd years I’ve been using Wave files. But midi bass, in my case the Ample p bass, can be exactly the same every time. Every year. 

I do the same with the drums. I’ve got a pre set kit I use. I make sure I always use the same velocity for each part. I have preset sub bus output levels etc. I use LUFS. 

I re visit all my tracks every so many years and update them all in a couple of weeks so they are always improving in sound quality and kept maintained. 
When I make a new track it will always be in the ballpark of the rest. I then proof that with the PA and take notes if I hear something wrong or if a level seems different. I fix it right away. 
 

It is rare that I have included canned guitars in my tracks. I mostly use Bass and drums and a little keyboard. 
This is not a typical style of music for me,  it’s for a special show Im doing for a friend. 
 

I had to learn about backing tracks back in the 80’s when the pubs only wanted singles or duo’s. Midi to the rescue. I still play in bands just for fun but I make 3 X the money as a single. 

A lot of my gigs don’t have the money or room for a band. I’ve been popular because I have a real good band!!  It’s a lot of work creating the tracks but I take pride in what I do and I prefer to make my own from scratch. 

 

[57Gregy]

I had the same problem in the mid-aughts when I was recording Grampa's Garden (at soundclick.com 😉). I couldn't find a VST or patch I liked. So, I bought a Fender 12 string.
Now, I have a Fender Mustang 1 modeling amp that I can adjust and get a decent sounding 12 string using any guitar.

[Sock Monkey]

I bet that Fender is as hard to play as my Yamaha 🙊

My friend has a Seagull 12 string that is a dream to play. They got smart and it has a short scale so it has less tension. We use it on a lot of cool old songs. 
My electric 12 string is custom made and we used a Gibson SG for the scale and neck profile. The body is a Tele. The bridge was bought from Charvel. 6 strings are through the body and 6 to the bridge back. Each string is adjustable. 

Edited Friday at 03:58 AM by Sock Monkey

[sjoens]

14 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

Or can I simply manipulate Ample Guitar lite and double up on the strings and put them out of tune!

Full octave tunings aren't possible with the VST but would have been nice.  You could duplicate the MIDI track and move the lower 4 string notes in PRV up one octave on the 2nd track... can be tedious but sounds ok...

AGM2L with a little Sonitus reverb:

Yamaha XG Folk Guitar with some MIDI Chorus:

Edited Friday at 10:05 AM by sjoens

[mettelus]

If creating a riff for a backing track, @sjoens solution would probably be simplest. It may be easier to just initially set it up as a 6-string track, duplicate it and move the lower 4 strings up an octave on that duplicated track. To the VST, they will just play higher, and is should sound fine. You may actually need 3 tracks and isolate only the bottom 4 strings for the duplicate, because a VST won't play 2 notes on the same string once raised an octave (they will conflict with the upper two strings). The only "realism" lacking with that is the low register... i.e., AmpleSound (and others) will play the low E through F# on the D string, which is wound... everything above the low F# will play on an unwound string, which will replicate the 12-string more accurately.

[sjoens]

I used 2 instances of AGM2L which has several different samples for each note so the duplicating effect is minimized.  You can also use 2 different VSTs for each 6 string.

[Terry Kelley]

I have both a normal strung and Nashville tuned acoustics and a 12 string  and you don’t get the same sound and shimmer as the 12 string. But the sound is really sweet, just not quite the same.

I use the Nashville by itself at times. It’s like a strange mandolin.  If you have a spare acoustic, it worth the experimentation.

[Sock Monkey]

Thanks everyone. 
Luckily the riff was very simple and if you play it on a guitar you only use the bottom 3 strings. 
You see I mentioned how I did this in above post. I lifted the notes with drag and drop Melodyne. 
 

I think the 12 string is hard to emulate because of a few things that create the unmistakable sound. 
It has to be in the harmonics generated. 

The other thing might be that you hit the hi octave strings before the lower. So they possibly have more energy. 

I think today I’ll dig my electric out and record the riff. I’ll convert to midi. I also want to see what it looks like in Melodyne. 
 

I’ve tried a few effects pedals that claim to emulate the 12 string but they all just used a variant on modulation or chorus. 
I even have a patch in my GR50 guitar synth that falls miserably. 

I feature my electric 12 string in a few of my originals. It is best used like in this song here for filler riffs and solos. 
All these old early 60’s folk groups featured the 12 string but. Then those electric Rickie’s in the Beatles , Tom Petty , Birds, and REM had me lusting after one. 

 

[T Boog]

58 minutes ago, Terry Kelley said:

you don’t get the same sound and shimmer as the 12 string

Cheers Terry. Yeah I know there's a sound difference. I played on my brother's 12 string for years(speaking of hard to play guitars!). I was just trying to convey the point without splitting hairs.

 Yeah, a real 12 always sounds a bit unintonated which gives it a slight chorusing effect and it also has somewhat of a sitarish quality from the two strings being so close to each other, which randomly deadens them a bit. The Nashville technique has a clearer sound that isn't fighting with itself as much. In a mix though, it can do a pretty convincing imitation.

[Sock Monkey]

Well I fired up my 12 string electric and recorded the riff. I opened it in Melodyne and I was not surprised to find a bunch of high harmonic  2 and 3 octaves up. 
The blobs were pretty weak. 
But the paired strings were pretty close in amplitude. 
I added a second instance of Ample Guitar and dragged to create midi. I deleted the harmonics. 
I was going to use it but I decided to Replace Ample with Strum Session and Sonar crashed.  
 

This is the third time Sonar has crashed on me when using Replace Synth

[T Boog]

9 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

I was not surprised to find a bunch of high harmonic  2 and 3 octaves up

That would explain the chimey-ness  of a 12 string. I would think that deleting those harmonics will take away some of the magic. I wonder if an audiophile such as urself will be able to live with that Sock?  😄

[Sock Monkey]

4 hours ago, T Boog said:

That would explain the chimey-ness  of a 12 string. I would think that deleting those harmonics will take away some of the magic. I wonder if an audiophile such as urself will be able to live with that Sock?  😄

Ha!  Im so deaf now MP 3 files are starting to sound good!! 
It’s a damn good thing I bought my NSM 10’s in the 90’s. Me and my monitors are growing old together in a nice way! I want to be cremated with them on either side of my head!