Bad Day ( solved )

[Sock Monkey]

Edit December 28 2024. 

I'll put the solution here to save people from wading through 2 pages of the boring stuff.  

In the end this was a simple case of an older project created first in Sonar 8.5, then opened in Splat, CbB and now Sonar. All my testing has determined that once again it was possibly  due to TTS-1 being part of the original version and there was a bug that remained in  those olden days. You would delete the TTS-1 in the synth rack but a ghost track remained.
The other possible issue was due to the Pro Channel and it being blank with no EQ. There was also a few dumps pointing at the CA2A. 
Anyhow easy to fix. I saved as a midi file and in 20 minutes will have it rebuilt clean. There is no audio yet. 

 

Original post: 

So far this month I've had about 12 crashes. Prior to that it was very very rare!  I really don't usually have any issues with Cakewalk or now Sonar. 

So I submit the dump files and they try really hard to help, but in the end you are only offered 2 solutions. Clean install of Sonar, or now the latest craze is install these Redist files to "repair?" whatever. What is with that? 

Yesterday I installed the latest update and tried the Redist update while I was at it.. I opened a project and did a few things and saved it.  

Today I started my day with Sonar would try and open the same  CWP file and go round and round and round?? then disappear?? No crash files? 

I decided if I'm to continue using this software I better just do what the support people had told me and do a clean install.  
  I backed up everything that I thought would be pertinent and proceeded to follow the instructions that had been sent to me in a few E mails from support. It was a bit disturbing that all of these instructions said "Cakewalk" and not Sonar.  So you see why I'm insecure?  

I even obliterated a few things I found that were not listed as it seems the Cakewalk empire stashes crap all over the place, and a lot of it is sort of repeat information. No problem as I had saved all of these folders to a backup drive.    

Take note that I had uninstalled Cakewalk a long time ago. I only have Next and Sonar as well as Splat and Sonar 8.5.  But yet I found folder after folder hiding in my C drive??  Nuked them all after I had copied them to a back up drive. 

So as far as I was concerned I had 100% eradicated all things Cakewalk/ Sonar and Next from my computer.   Re booted. 

I then I went to the website and downloaded Sonar. I ran the installer and when I opened it it claimed there was a new update?? OK whatever, I ran that installer and ended up with exactly the same version?? this kinda crap makes me wonder?? What is going on with all the web pages??  

Without even attempting to restore my own custom preferences I tried to open the project. Crash. so much for supports solutions. 

So I guess my concern is why is Sonar so unstable all of a sudden?   I could understand this if I was using some weird 3rd party free plug ins but these are all VST instruments I've used for years without issue. And we are talking a project with 5tracks all VST midi. 3 blank audio tracks, Loud max on the master bus. And Lexicon reverb and Boost 11, Zero other effects.  This is an old project not sure how old. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[Canopus]

2 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

So far this month I've had about 12 crashes. Prior to that it was very very rare!  I really don't usually have any issues with Cakewalk or now Sonar. 

Yesterday both Sonar and CbB crashed on me. Sonar 2024.12 didn’t even start (I tried three times), while CbB 2024.12 did start but crashed as soon as I pressed Ctrl+N to create a new project. So, I updated my Visual C++ Redistributable package from here, and everything just started to work again.

I don’t know if it was the 2024-12 Cumulative Update for Windows 10, or the BandLab installers, or a combination of those, that wreaked havoc on my system, but regardless; the redist update certainly fixed the problems on my computer.

[Sock Monkey]

I had already installed the Redit update. 
Other projects open normally. 
This is a corrupt project. But what seems wrong is it won’t open even in safe mode. 
Am I doing it wrong? 
I click on the file in Windows explorer holding down Shift. I get a dialogue about personal settings and Sonar opens and then disappears. I was expecting to see the dialogue where I can choose the plugins. I’ve tried this several times and on a different computer. 

Note yes I was doing it wrong!  you have to use the File menu! 
 

Each of the crash dumps points at something different. One points at Addictive Drums?? 
 

I tried opening on another computer with Sonar and I downloaded and installed Cakewalk. Same

I have Sonar Platinum too and it actually opened! I quickly took a screenshot of both monitors with console view open.
 

As it was loading it warned of 2 missing plug ins. Addictive Drums and Xpand2 ??  This must be the clue. But they are both definitely installed and working perfectly on all my other projects.
 

Thinking I could fix it by re loading them I used Replace Synth and Splat crashed and now it won’t load the project. 
 

Mostly I would really like to get safe mode to work. 
 

The project is backed up and those are also screwed. I have a version that opens from 10 years ago that could be reworked. I also saved it as a midi file a few years ago. 
 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[David Baay]

14 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

So I guess my concern is why is Sonar so unstable all of a sudden? 

When just one or a few users are experiencing sudden-onset instability and it it isn't affecting the majority of other users, it almost always means one or both of two things:

1. The root cause is at least partially external to Cakewalk - i.e. interoperability with particular environments.

2. Different users with similar symptoms are assuming Cakewalk is the common cause when the root causes are actually different, making the "issue" seem more widespread.

In your case, it sounds like you're seeing similar - but not identical - issues on different machines. Together with the fact that Platinum is also unstable, this points to the root causes being both external to Cakewalk and different on the two machines (and maybe different for Platinum than for CbB and Sonar).

Aside from the VC Redist issue, other common external causes are (in no particular order):

- Other O/S or 3rd-party software updates, changes or new installations.

- Interface hardware/firmware/driver updates or configuration changes.

- Other hardware/firmware/driver updates or configuration changes.

- RAM/Disk errors or other failing system hardware.

- Cakewalk configuration changes (expecially related to driver mode, I/O enables and CPU 

- Project content changes (e.g. using new/updated plugins).

If Cakewalk is launching okay and crashing only with a project open, the first step is to see if it's stable doing essential things like recording and playing back MIDI and Audioin new project started from the Basic template with only well-known stable instrument plugins.

On re-reading your second post, I guess it's really down to a problem with just one project. If you want to PM me a link to a zipped copy, I'll give it a whirl here, otherwise you should submit it to the Bakers.

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by David Baay

[Promidi]

13 hours ago, Canopus said:

Yesterday both Sonar and CbB crashed on me. Sonar 2024.12 didn’t even start (I tried three times), while CbB 2024.12 did start but crashed as soon as I pressed Ctrl+N to create a new project. So, I updated my Visual C++ Redistributable package from here, and everything just started to work again.

I don’t know if it was the 2024-12 Cumulative Update for Windows 10, or the BandLab installers, or a combination of those, that wreaked havoc on my system, but regardless; the redist update certainly fixed the problems on my computer.

Windows updates does not update the Vdist runtimes.  The Cakewalk installers can.  Many other application installer also can.

I know some will think this is way overkill,but when ever I install a new program, I check the Windows “programs and feature”, sort by date, and see if an installation of a version of the Vdist runtimes has occurred.

If there is a  Vdist runtimes installation entry at the top, then I reinstall the latest versions of the Vdist runtimes. 

[Sock Monkey]

Thank you @David Baay  

Yes I have sent in 4 crash dump submissions each has at least 2 dump files attached. I also submitted the CWP file , there is no audio in this project.  I included detailed information much of what I'm posting here.  

From the beginning I knew it was a plug in. I only followed through with the clean install and redist  because that is what support told me to do. I think the clean install was totally un-nessassary but who knows.  At least the Redist are a no brainer.  

A couple of the dump file said Addictive drums2. , Some other cash dumps pointed at ntdll.dll which when looking it up is not a Sonar issue. 

This morning I opened Sonar Platinum and managed to open the project in safe mode again. This time I immediately did a " save as " and renamed it with "Irishfog Splat"  And then again as a Midi file.  The midi file is actually all I really need. Easy to build on that.

Oh I also learned that safe mode only seemed to work if you browse to the project using the file menu. So I was doing it wrong. 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[David Baay]

54 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

Oh I also learned that safe mode only seemed to work if you browse to the project using the file menu. So I was doing it wrong. 

Yeah, I missed that you were doing it from Windows Explorer. That would have eliminated the need to jump through all the hoops to avoid unwanted plugin loading.

I'd still be curious to look at the "un-fixed" project to see if my system has the same issue with AD2 and/or silent synths. All sounds a bit odd.

[Sock Monkey]

@David Baay  PM's the project thanks once again really appreciate this.  

OK now I actually can use Safe Mode I proceeded to try different options on loading. In the end it was not an instrument but there were 2 plug ins listing upon loading that were not used in the project. One was called unknown EQ and the other was CA-2a> removing those 2 items has now made the project stable. 

But once again I'm a bit disappointed that the new Sonar has trouble with this?  d

Haven't heard back from Support yet, it's the weekend,  but I sort of know what they might say- Fresh install ( done) and Redist ( done)  

[Glenn Stanton]

one of the lastest updates for me included the NVIDIA update (via Microsoft update) from June... suddenly i'm getting glitches - i ran LatencyMon which picked up the NVIDIA driver as causing issues. i downloaded and install the Dec 2024 drivers directly from NVIDIA - problem solved. back to rock stable Sonar. 

[Glenn Stanton]

one of the versions of CA-2 was problematic for a while - even though i had bought it about 10 years agop and used it numerous times in CbB, then early last year it was misbehaving. i found there was an update so i installed it and voila.  it does seem like a constant battle to have updated OSes and plugins... i'm on a 2-week cycle now to check and troubleshoot if needed.

[Promidi]

1 minute ago, Glenn Stanton said:

one of the lastest updates for me included the NVIDIA update (via Microsoft update) from June... suddenly i'm getting glitches - i ran LatencyMon which picked up the NVIDIA driver as causing issues. i downloaded and install the Dec 2024 drivers directly from NVIDIA - problem solved. back to rock stable Sonar. 

This is why I have told Windows updates never to touch any drivers. 

I will do these manually if and when they are required.

[Sock Monkey]

Yes that is why I paid the extra for W11 pro!  But it doesn’t hurt to go over your computer settings every once in a while.  
I still have n issue with my Motu m4 with loosing audio if you leave the computer on long enough for it put the displays to sleep. Only solution is restarting. 

Well the CA2A was no where to be found so this might have been a case of deleting a plug in and it somehow lurks in the project..  This created the corruption.
There’s a good chance it was in the bin of the blank vocal track. That used to be  template I used. This is an instrumental but back then I often used project templates. 

I hadn’t opened this one for at least 2 years. I was actually in the process of opening all my projects to then save as to a backup as pure CWP and midi files with no audio. So it’s safe and sound now.  

Edited December 23, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[Michael Vogel]

I feel the pain too. Not instability, but sometimes I think I need a full time software engineer working for me to just keep on top of updates, interoperability mismatches and the complexity of a modern OS, namely Windows 11 Pro.

I use a lot of apps on phones and tablets and they just seem to work (he says, generally while touching a very large chunk of wood). Then I want to use my DAW (any one of several) and let the games begin. I seem to be gradually doing more and more computer software management to keep on top of everything.

I guess I want it all; something about cake and eating it too. Tell me what would be the point of cake if you couldn’t eat it too?

 

[Glenn Stanton]

On 12/22/2024 at 5:18 PM, Promidi said:

This is why I have told Windows updates never to touch any drivers. 
I will do these manually if and when they are required.

typically i don't let the WUP do this, but for some reason as part of the latest W11 large update it included about 20 drivers including the HP firmware (i know this because i looked at the update log 🙂 ) and interestingly enough, the "included non-windows software etc" is unchecked. so maybe as part of the "great AI" improvements from the OS people (Apple, MS, etc), they're deciding the updates need to include everythings... for our benefit... you know, like that 4th booster shot etc...

[Sock Monkey]

Mr @David Baay was super kind enough to look at the project for me. One thing he noticed was I had stripped the audio tracks and most of my Sub Busses of all Pro Channel Modules.  In those days I believed the Pro Channel was using resources even when turn off.  Any ways,  David remembers @Noel Borthwick commenting that this might not be wise and was going to look into it. The project now seems  stable and all I did was re save it after opening in safe mode and saying NO to the mystery EQ and the CA 2A.  

In the end there's still a possible bug lurking that would be rare as I doubt anyone else ever deletes all the dormant Pro Channel modules. 

I  found  what you see in my screenshot interesting. I always wondered why the Gloss EQ didn't have an icon? 

SInce those days I have never bothered to remove the EQ. But I do remove everything else and save that as my default. I find the default is super annoying clutter. Mostly I might not use the EQ but I like the spectrograph. 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

typically i don't let the WUP do this, but for some reason as part of the latest W11 large update it included about 20 drivers including the HP firmware

The help pane for the Group Policy entry that controls this setting says "Enable this policy to not include drivers with Windows quality updates."

The setting that tells Windows updates to never to touch any drivers applies to quality updates only. 

Feature updates will still update drivers regardless of that setting.  That “latest W11 large update” must have been a Feature Update.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

5 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

Mr @David Baay was super kind enough to look at the project for me. One thing he noticed was I had stripped the audio tracks and most of my Sub Busses of all Pro Channel Modules. This was a template I had made possibly 6 years ago and is since long gone. In those days I believed the Pro Channel was using resources even when turn off.  Any ways,  David remembers @Noel Borthwick commenting that this might not be wise and was going to look into it. The project now seems  stable and all I did was re save it after opening in safe mode and saying NO to the mystery EQ and the CA 2A.  

In the end there's still a possible bug lurking that would be rare as I doubt anyone else ever deletes all the dormant Pro Channel modules. 

I  found  what you see in my screenshot interesting. I always wondered why the Gloss EQ didn't have an icon? 

SInce those days I have never bothered to remove the EQ. But I do remove everything else and save that as my default. I find the default is super annoying clutter. Mostly I might not use the EQ but I like the spectrograph. 

 

The Gloss EQ cannot be removed from the Pro Channel. Why you're seeing a blank icon for it is very strange. This is my list

[sjoens]

There was a glitch in X1 that allowed us to remove the EQ from ProChannel strips.  It's since been fixed so you can no longer do that.  EQ is the default module for ProChannel and can't be removed which is why it's normally not in the list and why there is no icon for it.

If you had removed it, back when you could, and now open the project in any Cakewalk program, it will appear in the list with a blank icon.

[Sock Monkey]

On 12/24/2024 at 3:39 PM, Bristol_Jonesey said:

The Gloss EQ cannot be removed from the Pro Channel. Why you're seeing a blank icon for it is very strange. This is my list

 

Ah! That just might be the answer to the mystery. 
Back when I created the template you must have been able to or I would not have done that. Thanks @sjoens that seems to sound about right. But I used 8.5 ( no pro channel) up until X3. ? 
But in my screen shot you can clearly see the pro channel and it is blank. And when you open the insert module the gloss EQ icon is missing possibly because there isn’t one? 
If you click there it opens. 
As David said there was an issue so they probably made it so the EQ was baked in an update. 
This would create a conflict. So when I tried to open the project Sonar was looking for the Gloss EQ and couldn’t find it. 
 

I guess this would be a very rare situation. I will possibly have a few other old projects that might be like this.

Any way thanks everyone and  Happy Holidays 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Sock Monkey

[sjoens]

I'm learning stuff.  Old bug that was fixed or not, I made an Empty.pcp ProChannel preset with no modules in X1 that still loads in X1 but not in X2 and above.  If Empty.pcp was loaded & saved in a project created with one of the default templates already having PC modules,  it will open empty in X1 but not X2 or above.

In X1 you can save a Project Template with Empty.pcp and any project made and saved with it, even in CbB, will retain the empty PC in every version of Cakewalk you open it in.  So the empty status seems to be retained in the template, not the project made with it.  Makes sense then this would also apply to templates made in 8.5 and earlier that had no PC at all.

So...  if you have an old project with no PC modules, CbB & Sonar should reload the modules when you open it IF it was not originally created with a PC-less template.  If it was, you'll be reloading them manually.

Or... this may work:

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by sjoens