How do I route usb midi in?

[T Boog]

Im considering getting a cheap electronic drum kit, like a Simmons Titan 20. Currently, I record drums using my keyboard as a controller thru my interface via 5 pin midi, then into Cakewalk with Slate 5.5 drums. 

The Simmons kit has a usb midi out, not the 5 pin Im used to. Before I buy the kit Im curious how/where I route the usb midi-in in Cakewalk to record using the Slate vst. I've never bypassed the interace before.

To my knowledge, the drums dont come with their own driver, or is that even necessary?

Note: Im really hoping its easy going back & forth between the two midi sources. And Im also hoping I can record piano(via 5 pin interface) simultaneously with drums(via usb midi)

Edited November 28 by T Boog

[DeeringAmps]

If it is USB, in my experience it will need a driver. My Cakewalk (Roland 500) does. But it has some faders, buttons and dials. Maybe for just straight midi you don’t? CakeWalk “sees” it as a midi interface. My Roland HandSonic is a 5 pin, thus connects directly to the RME. 
As far as connecting, it’s a midi interface and you set it to the midi track that is driving the Slate VSTi. 
hth,

t

[T Boog]

8 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

it’s a midi interface and you set it to the midi track that is driving the Slate VSTi. 
hth,

Thanks. Btw, I added a note after u commented. Im assuming I can have one track(like piano) assigned to the 5 pin midi and the drum track assigned to the usb midi. That way they can be recorded simultaneously. Is that correct?

[T Boog]

I just found this video. He's using Reaper but he describes the drum module as it's own interface and he uses an asio4all driver. Since my interface has its own dedicated asio driver, Im guessing Id have to switch drivers everytime I want to use the drums?

 

Edited November 28 by T Boog

[Terry Kelley]

Make sure the drum kit has a local sound generator otherwise the latency even with super small blocks will drive you nuts. My buddy has to listen to the local sound module while recording the midi.  The midi itself is dead on timing wise but the time for the VST to generate the sound is too long even at 16.

[57Gregy]

You don't need an audio driver like ASIO4All for MIDI.

[DeeringAmps]

10 hours ago, T Boog said:

they can be recorded simultaneously?

Yes! CakeWalk can handle a bunch of midi interfaces simultaneously, I think the limit is a Windows thing, not Cake.

ASIO4all will only cause problems.  I would NOT install it.

As to latency, I run my RME interfaces at 64 samples when using VSTi’s (piano, drums, etcetera) and don’t notice a delay. YMMV

The only time, for me, that latency becomes an issue is late in a project, mixing at 2048, I’ll monitor guitars direct  (that’s why I bought the Tonex) And ANY digital guitar amp is introducing latency. My guess on the order of at least 32 and probably more like 64. Before the Tonex I ran an AXE FX II, I have the number somewhere, never tested the Tonex, Can’t “hear” it or “feel” it.

What audio interface are you using? The interface is always the “heart” of the DAW.

hth

t

[T Boog]

3 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

What audio interface are you using

Behringer umc204. I have no issues with latency at all. Mics, guitar, midi... It all tracks perfectly. But the electronic drums will bypass my behringer interface since it's usb midi. So I dont see what the behringer would have to do with the latency of the drums. Am I missing something? The drum kit wouldnt work on the behringer asio driver or would it?

[Sock Monkey]

I have one word of advice. Purchase a Drum Kit that comes with a Midi driver. And hopfully it is Midi 2.0!  Drums are a little different than playing a piano. Even a tiny bit of latency might bug you. 

Out of curiosity a few years ago I tested a bunch of my midi gear for what is known as "Midi Latency" 

Midi latency has nothing to do with Audio latency. That doesn't bug us unless we use input echo.  Midi latency It is the delay in the data stream from the moment you strike a key or drum pad to the moment it will be recorded by your daw. Midi 1.0 standard is from like 1980. The data is serial so each event follows another. 

Look it up and you will see that the more information in the data steam the worse the latency might become. And yes the Midi driver makes a difference!  

There's a new Midi standard 2.0 and a lot of new devices support it. https://midi.org/midi-2-0#:~:text=Details-,Protocol,of the MIDI 2.0 Protocol.  They have way better latency if you can find something. 

Anyways I tested this by simply placing a mike 1/2" away from a drum pad or a Keyboards key and recording both the audio and the midi event. Because I was using a good audio interface there was unmeasurable latency in the audio signal path.  

I tested about 8 different midi devices I had on hand. Some were USB midi, some were 5 pin. 

Take note that if using a 5 pin midi interface it will come with a proper midi driver. Audio interfaces that come with midi ports will also have a midi driver that is installed with your ASIO driver and software package. I was using a Motu M4. SO there's most always a midi driver involved unless you buy consumer quality gear. 

My Roland A 49 controller has both USB and 5 pin. It also had a Mdi driver that had just been updated.  There was no difference in measured latency between the USB or the 5 Pin and both where the lowest of all my devices. it was around 3 ms. This would be expected as midi itself has around 2 ms delay. This is why it is inadvisable to daisy chain midi devices. 

My Yamaha drum kit is USB and comes with a Steinberg midi driver. It was around 6 ms. 

The worst results were from controllers that used generic midi drivers they were 10ms  and one an Akia Synth station was 14 ms!! 

I think that the quality of hardware electronic and firmware  might be involved somehow because as far as I know they all used the same Microsoft midi driver. 

Of note was vintage keyboards from the 80's using 5 pin had around 8ms of latency so once again must be firmware or hardware related. 

Anyways, I thought it best to explain that because even when using direct monitoring, there can be midi latency so the triggering of any VST drum kit will first be  delayed by that.  Therefore a drum kit with a proper manufactures Midi driver is important! There are not very many good reviews of the Sampson kits as far as using them as controllers go. Lots of fun for a little jam band. 

So in my case my ( made in 2013)  Yamaha  drum kit is 6ms late and then if I use a VST drum kit add in another 10 ms from the Motu's audio playback ( yep that's as best as it can do without drop outs. ) the 16 ms of delay is terrible. Take note that the 10 ms of audio latency is adjusted by Cakewalk so recorded audio is always perfectly in time. I test this first. If there is an error in this calculation it is below the threshold of mattering for these tests. 

What most people recommend is to always monitor using the built in sounds from the drum module while tracking. This will have no latency and you will play much better. 

And yes you can leave the drum kit and keyboard always connected to your computer and simply select which one you want to use as the input to the instrument track when you record. Most Daw's work this way. 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:55 PM by Sock Monkey

[DeeringAmps]

1 hour ago, T Boog said:

dont see what the behringer would have to do with the latency of the drums.

The behringer ASIO driver is playing the drums. Set the driver to 2048 samples and you’ll hear the delay from keystroke or drum pad. Like I said above 64 samples should be transparent. Sock gave you an excellent rundown on potential midi latency; no more needs said. 
If you’re happy with the way things are working using the keyboard to trigger your drums then you should be set. But as Sock outlined, depending on the driver provided by Simmons. Again this would be a midi, not ASIO driver. Behringer has you covered on the  audio. 
again hth,

t

[T Boog]

51 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

Purchase a Drum Kit that comes with a Midi driver

Thanks a lot Sock. Yeah, I never considered midi latency. I'll def look for one with a midi driver. Besides, after researching last night, I learned that the cheap electric kits aren't very expressive(who woulda thought... u actually get what u pay for 😁).

 I'm realizing this is one area I prob shouldn't cheap out on too much. Which is a dang shame, cause I really love being cheap.  😋

[Sock Monkey]

1 hour ago, T Boog said:

 I'm realizing this is one area I prob shouldn't cheap out on too much. Which is a dang shame, cause I really love being cheap.  😋

Ha ha. Exactly. My Yamaha Kit is a DTX 500, the bottom of the line at the time it was  about $600 which for me was a MAJOR outlay. And yes ultimately I haven't used it a lot over the years. Mostly is it takes up a lot of space in my bedroom sized studio, And secondly it really didn't make my drum tracks sound a heck of a lot better than the ones I still do on a keyboard controller. And this is because it's the bottom of the line kit and therefore has very limited dynamic action. The pads are all 1 zone. 

I tried a Roland $5,000 kit and that was amazing. So yes there's a huge difference in price points. Possibly more than any other piece of gear. 

I have always played a little bit of drums because there's was a kit in our practice space as well as when I had the Music store and recording studio. I actually played drums in a simple little country band for a year. For that I bought  a cheap vintage kit because the digital drums would have been terrible. It is still in storage since I moved in 2019. 

I set the Yamaha kit up a few years ago and played around, that's when I did the midi tests. It sat unused in the room so just last week I put it away again. 

When I finally re model the studio space I will unpack them both and I want to make a hybrid kit out of both. 

If it's because you want to get some exercise and have fun, then get a cheap kit and forget about recording midi.  

If you want to improve your midi drum tracks buy something like an old Octopad that you can hit with drum sticks. Or a $5000 digital kit! 

Edited Thursday at 08:42 PM by Sock Monkey

[T Boog]

10 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

it takes up a lot of space

Thats a good point too. If ur gonna lose a lot of space, it should be worth losing space for. Btw, Im actually a decent drummer too but Im fairly content using my keyboard for drums. My conundrum is that Im wanting to record my brother playing drums on a couple songs and he's a killer drummer.

It's really an insult to ask him to play on a cheaper electric kit but since he's my brother, I enjoy insulting him 😄

No really, it's just hard to justify spending a lot for what will prob be an occasional thing. He does of course have a great acoustic kit but that brings up a diff list of probs Id rather avoid. And Ive become pretty spoiled to midi. I guess I just have to weigh it all out a little more.

[mettelus]

20 hours ago, T Boog said:

The Simmons kit has a usb midi out, not the 5 pin Im used to. Before I buy the kit Im curious how/where I route the usb midi-in in Cakewalk to record using the Slate vst. I've never bypassed the interace before.

To my knowledge, the drums dont come with their own driver, or is that even necessary?

Note: Im really hoping its easy going back & forth between the two midi sources. And Im also hoping I can record piano(via 5 pin interface) simultaneously with drums(via usb midi)

I think everyone already hit on what I was going to say. MIDI and audio are separate devices, so if "MIDI compliant" there may be no specific drivers for it, it may just output GM. Unlike audio in ASIO mode, you can connect multiple MIDI devices, easiest to sort them on tracks by what channels you want to use if you have multiple MIDI controllers connected. Also be aware of the controller limit (10?), so if you get carried away with this you may get new devices overwriting the oldest ones (probably not applicable in your case, and not sure if this was changed for newer OS's). For devices that have audio and MIDI running down that USB cable, they will show up as separate devices as well in preferences.

[Amberwolf]

6 hours ago, T Boog said:

Thanks a lot Sock. Yeah, I never considered midi latency. I'll def look for one with a midi driver. Besides, after researching last night, I learned that the cheap electric kits aren't very expressive(who woulda thought... u actually get what u pay for 😁).

I guess that's why my goodwill-sourced wired rockband drums don't work very well?  😆

(I can't play them (well, anything) for real, but I sometimes use a goodwill-sourced yamaha dd55...someday i need to take it apart and see if waht the problem with the upper left pad is, though, since it's way less sensitive than the others. 

[57Gregy]

On 11/27/2024 at 8:25 PM, T Boog said:

Im considering getting a cheap electronic drum kit, like a Simmons Titan 20. Currently, I record drums using my keyboard as a controller thru my interface via 5 pin midi, then into Cakewalk with Slate 5.5 drums. 

The Simmons kit has a usb midi out, not the 5 pin Im used to. Before I buy the kit Im curious how/where I route the usb midi-in in Cakewalk to record using the Slate vst. I've never bypassed the interace before.

To my knowledge, the drums dont come with their own driver, or is that even necessary?

Note: Im really hoping its easy going back & forth between the two midi sources. And Im also hoping I can record piano(via 5 pin interface) simultaneously with drums(via usb midi)

I bought something like this Yamaha DD-75 a few years back for ~$130. Not being a drummer, it was easy to get used to and is easy to play. This one comes with a power adapter, unlike mine which had to be purchased separately. I don't know if that justifies the added $170. 
Has MIDI in/out. Put it on a stand, desk or table when needed; put it against the wall or in the closet when you don't need it.

Edited Friday at 03:09 AM by 57Gregy
c, s, does it matter?

[mettelus]

Depending how much you like to tinker (BIG if), there are quite a few videos of folks converting cheap kits (like Guitar Hero stuff) with new piezo sensors and Arduino controllers. Evan Kale had one from probably a decade ago that I cannot find now with the code he used to make them velocity sensitive. The folks heavy into Arduino usually have the coding supplied and detailed build descriptions in their videos (what to really look for if searching them). The actual parts are fairly cheap for such projects, but the coding and soldering can be challenging (why the videos are nice resources when they are converting something or building from scratch). Those guys take things that have basic pads and turn them into something more usable. Complex kits have more sensors on the pads/cymbals (rims, bell, etc.) so a cheap kit is likely to have only one dead-center on the pad and less things you can fire off while playing.

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, mettelus said:

Depending how much you like to tinker (BIG if), there are quite a few videos of folks converting cheap kits (like Guitar Hero stuff) with new piezo sensors and Arduino controllers. Evan Kale had one from probably a decade ago that I cannot find now with the code he used to make them velocity sensitive. The folks heavy into Arduino usually have the coding supplied and detailed build descriptions in their videos (what to really look for if searching them). The actual parts are fairly cheap for such projects, but the coding and soldering can be challenging (why the videos are nice resources when they are converting something or building from scratch). Those guys take things that have basic pads and turn them into something more usable. Complex kits have more sensors on the pads/cymbals (rims, bell, etc.) so a cheap kit is likely to have only one dead-center on the pad and less things you can fire off while playing.

For years I used a Remo practice kit, modded with piezo sensors glued to soup tin lids inside them.  I cut the foam inserts in half and wedged the tin in the middle, and put a 3.5mm jack socket at the bottom (in retrospect, the side would have been better... they fall out too easily otherwise, so I had to tape them).  These then got plugged into an Alesis DM5, which allowed me to tweak the sensitivity.  I had 11 pads in total:  kick, snare, 3 x toms, hihat (with a standard sustain pedal as my hi-hat pedal), ride, splash, china and two crash symbols.

In fact even now, although I use an Alesis Nitro as my main kit, I still use three of those pads as extra symbols via the DM5.

Both the Alesis DM5 or D4 have trigger inputs, so either will work for this kind of setup.

The D4 sounds are similar to the SR16; the DM5 has more sounds of better quality.

 

[T Boog]

37 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

1 hour ago, mettelus said:

Depending how much you like to tinker (BIG if), there are quite a few videos of folks converting cheap kits (like Guitar Hero stuff) with new piezo sensors and Arduino controllers. Evan Kale had one from probably a decade ago that I cannot find now with the code he used to make them velocity sensitive. The folks heavy into Arduino usually have the coding supplied and detailed build descriptions in their videos (what to really look for if searching them). The actual parts are fairly cheap for such projects, but the coding and soldering can be challenging (why the videos are nice resources when they are converting something or building from scratch). Those guys take things that have basic pads and turn them into something more usable. Complex kits have more sensors on the pads/cymbals (rims, bell, etc.) so a cheap kit is likely to have only one dead-center on the pad and less things you can fire off while playing.

Expand  

For years I used a Remo practice kit, modded with piezo sensors glued to soup tin lids inside them.  I cut the foam inserts in half and wedged the tin in the middle, and put a 3.5mm jack socket at the bottom (in retrospect, the side would have been better... they fall out too easily otherwise, so I had to tape them).  These then got plugged into an Alesis DM5, which allowed me to tweak the sensitivity.  I had 11 pads in total:  kick, snare, 3 x toms, hihat (with a standard sustain pedal as my hi-hat pedal), ride, splash, china and two crash symbols.

In fact even now, although I use an Alesis Nitro as my main kit, I still use three of those pads as extra symbols via the DM5.

Both the Alesis DM5 or D4 have trigger inputs, so either will work for this kind of setup.

My brother, who was my drummer, had a D5 back in the day. He prefered his mics though and only used it for the bass drum but I loved the custom kits he made on it. We played Hard Rock & Metal and they sounded huge.

 Btw, I appreciate yours & mettelus's diy tips but I think Im just gonna buy a $400 or so mesh kit like an Alesis or Simmons. I been watching lots of reviews on em and they seem to work fine controlling midi in a daw. Which was my main concern.

However, I will keep the diy thing in mind if I ever wanna expand on the cheap. 😉

[HOOK]

When I downsized and stopped selling my time a few years ago, I ended up at home without a space to do live drums.  I'd surrounded myself with great drummers over those years so I never really thought about midi drums.  But when I started writing again on my own I quickly found that doing drums manually was tiresome, and frankly, I couldn't get the groove right without actually playing it.

Then  I actually had a good conversation with an honest sales guy at GC and he convinced me that, since I wouldn't be gigging with it, the Nitro kit would probably do everything I needed to do - and that I didn't need to spend more.  And the savings allowed me to get the expansion kit so that I could have three cymbal pads and an extra double zone drum pad.  I use the extra drum pad for ride cymbal so I can use one of the zones for ride bell.  I use the Slate Drums.  Tiny footprint.  HUGE sounds.  Really cool.

Honestly, for my writing, this is the best money I've spent in a couple decades.

As far as sensitivity goes, it's just basic business to go in and do a bunch of manual edits to velocity...it's really no big deal. In fact, it's mostly a thing I do while mixing.

 

Also...if you go this route, you'll undoubtedly need some way to bring this tiny kit up to a height that can be played by a normal size human...lol.  If you look at my pic you can see the couch risers I bought at Home Depot...or Lowes....or Amazon.  Not sure where.  They work great for that.