Why Creative Sauce is Abandoning Cakewalk ! ** Updated 25th Nov **

[DeeringAmps]

10 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

if the only way is a subscription plan then will you still always use it?

I’ve already made that decision; I’m a Sonar user…

t

[T Boog]

Im still on CbB. If Cakewalk Sonar had a reasonable one time purchase option(which I could swear they were assuring us they would), Id buy it immediately. But the subscription thing is MASSIVE turnoff to me and I feel jerked around by all the inconsistent/indecisive messaging.

I like the Cakewalk daw and Id like to stay loyal to the Cakewalk team but forcing a subscription has me making plans elsewhere.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

Okay so Mike has doubled down and gone into more detail in a new video....Very interesting and chimes with my thoughts on the marketing side of things. 

Have linked it at the most interesting part 

 

[Terry Kelley]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:03 PM, T Boog said:

Im still on CbB. If Cakewalk Sonar had a reasonable one time purchase option(which I could swear they were assuring us they would), Id buy it immediately. But the subscription thing is MASSIVE turnoff to me and I feel jerked around by all the inconsistent/indecisive messaging.

I like the Cakewalk daw and Id like to stay loyal to the Cakewalk team but forcing a subscription has me making plans elsewhere.

I think at this point, if Bandlab gave us the option for a perpetual license, the number of people that would buy it might pay the bills for the developers for maybe a month. After that, then what? They will still be dependent on the rental revenue or as a loss leader.

Why bother. I think they are best off just sticking to their original decision for rental only. That is either financially successful or it’s not. 

Edited November 27 by Terry Kelley

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, Terry Kelley said:

I think at this point, if Bandlab gave us the option for a perpetual license, the number of people that would buy it might pay the bills for the developers for maybe a month. After that, then what? They will still be dependent on the rental revenue or as a loss leader.

Why bother. I think they are best off just sticking to their original decision for rental only. That is either financially successful or it’s not. 

So this must be about few people use the software to begin with.

[Terry Kelley]

I don’t know. There were a lot of people on the old forum and now here, but the current numbers are unknown. I just believe that Bandlab’s future is more driven by new subscriptions to their service vs old users. It appears many moved on and that why I believe the revenue from sales might be low.

Who knows.

[OwenT]

People saying that Pro Tools is the number one DAW and is also subscription based are missing a couple of points, I think. Pro-Tools only stopped perpetual licenses in 2022. They had decades to build a strong base and reputation.  More importantly Pro Tools targets the professional recording market, people who work with it for a living, which means they can claim the subscription as a work related expense come tax time. No way I am going to be recouping any costs from my dingy basement studio. 
PS, I've been running Mixcraft Pro alongside Cakewalk for the last year and am ready to make the switch. Moving on...

[mettelus]

On 11/25/2024 at 3:43 PM, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Have linked it at the most interesting part 

Wow, that is a rather brutal assessment IMO. Bandlab ignores him (i.e., "help me to help you"), yet Bandlab's competitors are reaching out to him.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

54 minutes ago, mettelus said:

Wow, that is a rather brutal assessment IMO. Bandlab ignores him (i.e., "help me to help you"), yet Bandlab's competitors are reaching out to him.

I know right ? And really it confirms what I've felt since this Cakewalk Sonar announcement. The Devs are beavering away but whoever decides how this DAW is sold and marketed doesn't really seem to be at all connected to the users.  

[T Boog]

1 hour ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

whoever decides how this DAW is sold and marketed doesn't really seem to be at all connected to the users.  

And sadly that goes against the whole concept of community. Heck, I get more ticked off for OTHER users here(esp the long time Sonar faithful) than for myself.

Like the current Bandlab subscription sale. Which, if I understand right, doesn't apply to current subscribers. HOW IS THAT GOOD BUSINESS?! All that's good for is sowing discontent. And the bakers end up getting undeserved backlash too.

Cakewalk is a great daw with a great tech team but yeah, the owners & marketing seem to be out of touch or just uncaring. 

[Terry Kelley]

I rented Sonar early on for 15 days and then let it lapse. I just got my first discount offer which is this  Black Friday sale.  I didn’t even get  a come-on like others have mentioned until this.

Maybe they are now trying to bring in the early people that didn’t continue like me.

Edited November 30 by Terry Kelley

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

8 hours ago, Terry Kelley said:

Maybe they are now trying to bring in the early people that didn’t continue like me.

Or maybe they are not hitting the numbers they expected.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If everything is wrapped up in one al encompassing BL membership do they even know who's using the various Apps it includes?

Maybe it doesn't matter to them whether it's the existing Sonar users or new Bandlab / Next users. 

[Terry Kelley]

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Or maybe they are not hitting the numbers they expected.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If everything is wrapped up in one al encompassing BL membership do they even know who's using the various Apps it includes?

Maybe it doesn't matter to them whether it's the existing Sonar users or new Bandlab / Next users. 

I think they go together. It’s probably a long haul.

Edited November 30 by Terry Kelley

[Starship Krupa]

On 11/27/2024 at 2:30 PM, Terry Kelley said:

I think at this point, if Bandlab gave us the option for a perpetual license, the number of people that would buy it might pay the bills for the developers for maybe a month.

I disagree. I they did a perpetual license or hybrid subscription and leveraged the advertisement toast in CbB to sell it, there would be much more uptake.

The YouTubers like Mike and XELOhh would likely start up again if there were a clear path from CbB to permanent ownership of a Sonar license. As a fan of both CbB and NuSonar, I'd be shouting it from the rooftops on multiple forums.

The CbB and Sonar userbase extends way beyond the people on this forum. We're like a flake of snow atop the tip of an iceberg.

[Terry Kelley]

Maybe so. But it doesn’t appear they want to test our theories! 😀 I personally think too many people have moved on but only Bandlab knows for sure. Our pitching and bitching hasn’t moved them one inch. And Wookie pretty much confirmed it. 

Edited December 7 by Terry Kelley

[Starship Krupa]

6 hours ago, Terry Kelley said:

I personally think too many people have moved on but only Bandlab knows for sure

That they surely do, thanks to the usage data that CbB and NuSonar collect. How many have left, how many new users have come in due to Sonar's inclusion in their BandLab membership, how many have left and would return in case of perpetual or hybrid, we can only guess. My suspicion is that if/when any changes are made, they will be around the time of quarterly reviews of the data. Who's using Sonar, who's using Next, who's still on CbB, how much clickthrough is CbB generating since the orange toast notification was installed....

There is a vast silent majority of Cakewalk users who have never posted a word in public regarding their use of it. Maybe too busy, um, using it to make audio recordings? Stranger things have been known to occur.

It's the only program I use other than The Elder Scrolls Online where I give any thought to a "community" of people who might be using it. The MMORPG was subscription-only when it launched 10 years ago, then they started offering a perpetual license, one of which I got for free and have since been off and on with their subscription, which allows the user access to more content and some useful in-game quality of life features.

Not my video editing software, nor my photo editing software, web browser, paint software, messaging software, mobile phone. No idea about any "politics" with any of them. Only the DAW and the MMORPG. Not sure what to make of that. They are the two programs I overwhelmingly spend the most time with.

[Mr No Name]

10 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I disagree. I they did a perpetual license or hybrid subscription and leveraged the advertisement toast in CbB to sell it, there would be much more uptake.

The YouTubers like Mike and XELOhh would likely start up again if there were a clear path from CbB to permanent ownership of a Sonar license. As a fan of both CbB and NuSonar, I'd be shouting it from the rooftops on multiple forums.

The CbB and Sonar userbase extends way beyond the people on this forum. We're like a flake of snow atop the tip of an iceberg.

+1 for X to the L to the Ooooooooooooooo.

did some very useful informative youtube vids.

[Terry Kelley]

It all sounds so technical.

[jfrommichigan]

22 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

+1 for X to the L to the Ooooooooooooooo.

did some very useful informative youtube vids.

+2

-informative, and enjoyable.

Between him and Mike, you couldn't ask for two nicer guys to 'represent' your product.

[AxlBrutality]

I will say that I'm definitely at a crossroads myself.

I've been with Cake/Sonar since 2004.  Started with Music Creator 2003 and upgraded from there.  Been through every iteration, every ownership change, every purchase platform/subscription, etc.

Even though I became ProTools and Logic certified in audio school in 2007, I stuck with Cake/Sonar for my personal projects afterwards simply due to cost and familiarity/habit.  Even though most of the people I've worked with in recent years use other DAWs (mainly Cubase these days), I've still stayed.  I have close friends that were similar champions of Cakewalk who have abandoned it in recent years and have been pounding their fist on the table for me to switch every time I have issues...but again, I've stayed.  I'm a creature of habit.  Plus, I almost continually have major projects going on and have not wanted to take the time to migrate things.

I've been through a lot of highs and a lot of lows with the software, the devs, and the community.  Mostly highs, though, (let me stress that)...and until a few years ago I was one of Cake's biggest champions and defenders.

But there were always a lot of little points of friction that eventually built up over time, both in the actual software, the time spent with devs trying to identify/fix bugs and errors, and also in the way marketing/ownership/etc. has been handled.

Those points came to a head in 2022 when I lost a TON of work (about 4 hours of tracking) due to a CbB not actually saving (in spite of appearing to) and then eventually crashing...and I basically lost my sh** and walked away.  Some of you may remember my blowup here on the forums before I basically disappeared.  While I will say that blowup came from a legitimate place and my feelings were valid, I didn't approach it in the best way, I was not constructive, and I was pointlessly combative...and for that I apologize.

I ended up walking away from my own music and from audio work in general for a time after that, and eventually began investigating other options.  But I once again found my way back to CbB...again, the cost (or lack thereof), the familiarity, the fact that I still had several standing projects hanging out in CbB, etc. all playing a part.

I've been out of the loop entirely until just yesterday regarding Cakewalk Sonar and the price/subscription model, and the sunsetting of CbB.  Mainly because, for possibly the longest stretch in recent memory, CbB has actually functioned flawlessly for me and I haven't had reason to return here.  (Plus, of course, I didn't leave the forums on the best terms.)

I'm torn right now.  On one hand, I never expected this DAW to remain free.  Even Reaper isn't technically free.  (The promise of this DAW remaining free forever was a convenient lie that we all knew was a lie but went along with anyway, and tbh it's whatever.)  I also never expected it to remain the exact same; I was always prepared to change and evolve with the software.

What I did not expect was a completely separate and new DAW installation...for the same DAW...for the third time in less than a decade.  That's insanely annoying.  I'm tired of the complete rebuilds and "rebrands", tbh.  No other major DAW goes through this every few years.

I also didn't expect what feels like a shady means of forcing users into a Bandlab subscription.  I don't care about Cakewalk Next.  I don't care about Bandlab.  I have never used Bandlab, nor do I ever intend to.  I was annoyed enough about the Bandlab integration and having to have a BL account and profile/social page, but I understood it.  But it feels...idk, disingenuous and kinda shady to structure the actual subscription/account this way.

(Even the notorious Adobe isn't like this, on these two points.  You just...update things.  No completely new installs every couple of years, and you're never forced into anything else/any of their other platforms.)

Unlike some here, I do actually like subscription models inasmuch as you're not forced to cough up hundreds of dollars at once for a product.  Not all of us routinely have that much cash laying around.  The accessibility is nice.  But not having a path to, or option of, outright ownership is annoying.  Almost every other DAW and plugin company has this figured out.  Plugin Alliance gives you your choice of plugin ownership each year.  Reaper guarantees their licensing for two full rebuilds/versions and continues to support old versions/allow you to use updated versions for free.  Cubase, S1, etc. are all outright purchases that are still supported when newer versions come out. Even Slate...who people are really not happy with at times....still allows you to buy plugins individually outright, in spite of their crappy All Access Pass not being an R2O.  Numerous R2O options exist.  Etc.

(This is where Cakewalk is aligning with Adobe on probably their weakest and most hated characteristic.)

But anyway...

At the end of the day...I'm looking at having to a) install a new DAW, b) pay for a DAW, and c) migrate projects to that DAW.  Which is fine....

But what, exactly, is my motivation for sticking with Cakewalk, when almost every other major DAW does the exact same things that Cakewalk does....without the lack of a path to ownership, without the constant rebrands and complete rebuilds/new installs, without sneakily shoving us into bundled memberships on platforms we don't care about, etc.?  That's a genuine question that I'm trying to answer myself.

I also feel like the ownership/marketing/powers that be are a bit disconnected from the userbase (not as bad as the Gibson days, granted, but yea), and I will say that there are features and reworks to major systems that have been mass requested for years and never addressed (drum mapping, anyone?).  I'm not sure how many of these are finally solved with Cakewalk Sonar, as I have yet to do a deep dive into it and of course haven't installed it.

But yea, idk.  I want to stick with Cake. But if I have to pay for something and go through an all-new install and setup, and I'm stuck with a management model and ownership that I don't really quite trust at this point...I need to know what sets it apart from literally any other DAW on the face of the planet. 

And how long until the next ownership change/rebuild/new install/new purchase model/whatever?

Maybe I'm still just being resistant to change and my annoyances aren't valid, idk.  Feel free to tear me down.  But I'm just....hesitant.

For now, I'll use CbB until it finally breaks or something I really need becomes incompatible with it...and cross that bridge when I get there.

P.S.:  Is there a way to turn off the "give us money and install our new thing" notification I get every time I launch CbB now?

 

Edited December 10 by AxlBrutality