RexRed Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 I just got the new Cakewalk Sonar update and, WOW! I have been working for several hours now, laying down many vocal tracks and midi (in 32bit) and not one single dropped frame! (not one!) Clicking in the timeline is very noticeably more responsive, I am no longer fighting with the timeline, you fixed it!!!!! I could cry, Cakewalk (getting teary) is running so very nice! You deserve a 2024 award for excellence, never has a program of such magnitude improved so greatly over such a short amount of time! If I gave out awards and I could only give out one first place 2024 award, Cakewalk wins hands down without any doubt or reservations! (...and I work with a lot of very big programs!) You have made me very happy! Someone has noticed your work and you are, AMAZING! Cakewalk is king! Big thanks to the bakers! (Take a break, you deserve some time off!) 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 Why 32 bit? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 32-bit files, not 32-bit OS 🙂 (i hope) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said: Why 32 bit? Once I switched to 32 bit recording I would never consider switching back. I own a RME Fireface UCX II, it cost me $1,700. I use that for Windows handling and routing all of my sound for live stream sources (couldn't do without it). But I use the Zoom UAC-232 2x2 32-Bit Float USB-C Audio/MIDI Interface for Cakewalk. I never have to ever set gain, it actually does not even have an input level knob. So when I re-plug a mic into it, it is always the exact same attenuation for re-singing lines. And it totally sounds better and cannot distort my sound. Even better than the Fireface, After years of buying many interfaces and never satisfied with the sound, (including the Fireface) I have found the perfect interface for my music and it is rock solid. I might add that with the new headroom with Cakewalk it might be/is time to experiment with 96khz settings again for songs. The Zoom I paid 200 bucks (it is now selling for $129.00) and, take my word for it, there is no interface on the planet that can even come close to beating it. For 129 bucks you can have the very best interface ever made... I will tell you now it will beat whatever you have. My Fireface gets HOT too, that bothers me a lot, the Zoom stays cool as a cucumber. And the Zoom is VERY easy to use. Easier than any other interface because you can just sing into it without setting any levels or worrying about clipping, EVER. This is a totally worry free and less cumbersome way of making music. Over time you feel like making music more because there are less obstacles. Try it and you will never ever consider going back to 24 bit. Edited October 4 by RexRed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr No Name Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 16 minutes ago, RexRed said: Once I switched to 32 bit recording I would never consider switching back. I own a RME Fireface UCX II I use that for Windows handling and routing all of my sound for live stream sources. But I use the Zoom UAC-232 2x2 32-Bit Float USB-C Audio/MIDI Interface for Cakewalk. I never have to ever set gain, it actually does not even have an input level knob. So when I re-plug a mic into it, it is always the exact same attenuation for re-singing lines. And it totally sounds better and cannot distort my sound. Even better than the Fireface, After years of buying many interfaces and never satisfied with the sound, (including the Fireface) I have found the perfect interface for my music and it is rock solid. I might add that with the new headroom with Cakewalk it might be/is time to experiment with 96khz settings again for songs. The Zoom I paid 200 bucks (it is now selling for $129.00 and, take my word for it, there is no interface on the planet that can even come close to beating it. For 129 bucks you can have the very best interface ever made... I will tell you now it will beat whatever you have. My Fireface gets HOT too, that bothers me a lot, the Zoom stays cool as a cucumber. And the Zoom is VERY easy to use. Easier than any other interface because you can just sing into it without setting any levels or worrying about clipping, EVER. This is a totally worry free and less cumbersome way of making music. Over time you feel like making music more because there are less obstacles. yes, but what happens when you convert down to 24 or 16 bit for finalizing and mastering tracks, gain staging is necessary at the mixing stage definately 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 1 minute ago, Mr No Name said: yes, but what happens when you convert down to 24 or 16 bit for finalizing and mastering tracks, gain staging is necessary at the mixing stage definately You use Cakewalk to gain stage, look at your levels and use a brick wall on your final mastering bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 (edited) https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UAC232--zoom-uac-232-usb-3.0-audio-interface Even lower price, almost 50% less than what I paid for it. Let me know here if you buy this. Let others know if you own this and like it a lot like I do! I'll give you a tip on how to use this device in Cakewalk. Since it does not have an input volume sometimes your project volume can be louder than your input volume. I just put a bus output volume envelope on my master bus and temporarily lower that and sometimes I will send the recording track output out of Cakewalk rather than have it flow to the master. That solves that issue. Then you can attenuate the recording input volume with that of the mix. Consider that it never matters the volume you record something at, low or high volume it will "always" be perfect in 32 bit. If you have a mic boost button, you might use it in the on position to raise the input a bit above the volume of the mix. Imagine a vocalist that is all over the place screaming into the mic and then whispering. This is NEVER a problem as 32 bit recording it is impossible to clip or saturate the gain or have it so low that turning it up reveals the noise floor. There is virtually no noise floor and there is not much in this world loud enough to clip this. I am a vocalist and the price of this to never have to set my gain is worth every penny of the investment not to mention that it does sound better, with more bits it should (in my opinion). The file sizes are larger but not enough to notice, a whole project may only be a few gigs... Just imagine your song in 32 bit... And Cakewalk does not run noticeable sluggish either, and with the new updates it is super efficient and fast. I was using this interface with the Bandlab version and was very happy then as well. I am not affiliated with this product in any way, I am just a very happy customer. Edited October 4 by RexRed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reginaldStjohn Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 The zoom interface records to 32 but files but the converters are 24bit. Thus was discussed in another thread some months ago 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 (edited) 33 minutes ago, reginaldStjohn said: The zoom interface records to 32 but files but the converters are 24bit. Thus was discussed in another thread some months ago I am not sure what you mean, it never clips and there is no noise level. So the final result is a 32 bit floating point recording that sounds pristine (better than my Fireface). The converters are facilitating a 32 bit algorithm. The Zoom UAC-232 uses two 24-bit A/D converters for each input to achieve high-quality audio recording without the need for gain adjustments. Here’s how it works: Different Input Gains: Each of the two A/D converters is set to a different input gain range. This means one converter handles quieter signals, while the other handles louder signals. Automatic Switching: The UAC-232 constantly monitors the data from both converters and automatically selects the one that provides the best recording results. This ensures that the audio is captured without clipping or introducing noise, regardless of the input signal level. Wide Dynamic Range: By combining the data from both converters, the UAC-232 can achieve a wider dynamic range than would be possible with a single A/D converter. This design allows the UAC-232 to capture a broad range of sound levels, from very quiet to very loud, without the need for manual gain adjustments, ensuring high-quality, clip-free recordings. Then the algorithm turns the two signals into a 32 bit recording. The end result of having 2 x 24 bit recorders one set for low gain and the other for high gain is a wider dynamic range when they are both combined allowing for a performance with dynamic range to be capture flawless and then saved in a 32 bit format. Then you can use Cakewalk to lower and raise the volumes to the median. Edited October 4 by RexRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr No Name Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 13 minutes ago, RexRed said: I am not sure what you mean, it never clips and there is no noise level. So the final result is a 32 bit floating point recording that sounds pristine (better than my Fireface). I assume the converters are simply facilitating a 32 bit algorithm. It might be more your DAW works at 32 bit float point by default, I also agree with what you said about not having to mess about gain staging, if you have a moment of inspriation it's handy to be able to grab your guitar/bass and just get it down with out having to mess around. Useful for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRed Posted October 4 Author Share Posted October 4 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Mr No Name said: It might be more your DAW works at 32 bit float point by default, I also agree with what you said about not having to mess about gain staging, if you have a moment of inspriation it's handy to be able to grab your guitar/bass and just get it down with out having to mess around. Useful for sure. Very very loud signals can clip but I have not experienced that yet. That is why there is no gain on the device. Just look at what is recording, if your signal is in the ballpark but clipping occasionally in the track view you are golden. Just pay attention if it is way too high or way too low. I have had it clip a ton and still not be any noticeable distortion at all in the recording. The algorithm used by the Zoom UAC-232 to switch between the two 24-bit converters is designed to minimize any changes in the color of the sound. Here’s how it works: Seamless Switching: The algorithm continuously monitors the input signal and seamlessly switches between the two converters based on the signal level. This ensures that the transition is smooth and does not introduce any noticeable artifacts or changes in sound color. High-Quality Components: The converters and other components used in the UAC-232 are of high quality, which helps maintain the integrity of the audio signal. High-quality components are less likely to introduce coloration to the sound. Precision Matching: The two converters are precisely matched to ensure that their output is consistent. This means that when the algorithm switches between them, the sound remains consistent and transparent. Digital Signal Processing (DSP): The DSP algorithms used in the UAC-232 are designed to handle the switching process efficiently, ensuring that the audio signal remains clean and free from distortion or coloration. By using these techniques, the UAC-232 can switch gains without altering the color of the sound, providing high-quality, transparent audio recordings. Edited October 4 by RexRed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 Right, we were talking at cross purposes earlier, though not without some justification. When you first said "32 bit", I took it to mean you were running the 32 bit version of Sonar, not that you were recording at 32 bit. That bit (pun not intended) wasn't made clear at all. And as far as I'm aware, the Zoom is the only consumer grade interface that lets you record at 32 bit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Borthwick Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 18 hours ago, RexRed said: Once I switched to 32 bit recording I would never consider switching back. Zoom makes good interfaces. Not many audio interfaces support 32 or 64 bit inputs. The only one I came across many years ago was from Rane and that was a DJ mixer. It made sense to output in 32 bit since it was mixing internally. I’m sure you are aware but besides the advantage of flexible gainstaging (low or high input gain isnt a problem in float) there is no sonic advantage to 32 bit inputs since all ADC converters are up to 24 bit. Quote Wide Dynamic Range: By combining the data from both converters, the UAC-232 can achieve a wider dynamic range than would be possible with a single A/D converter. This design allows the UAC-232 to capture a broad range of sound levels, from very quiet to very loud, without the need for manual gain adjustments, ensuring high-quality, clip-free recordings. Then the algorithm turns the two signals into a 32 bit recording. Its clever that they have two inputs and choose the best level. Not sure how they handle that dynamically without levels jumping around but it seems plausible. However in this case you should note that the 32 bit inputs themselves are not giving you better dynamic range of the audio, since the convertors are still sampling 20-24 bit audio at the end of the day. My guess is that they are likely applying some gainstaging for whatever algorithm they use to combine data from two inputs and its more convenient to do losslessly in 32 bit. Still its a nice innovation. In Sonar there is actually an advantage to having 32 bit inputs from the audio interface. Since the engine is all floating point, all hardware inputs get upconverted to 32/64 bit depending on the engine bit depth. If the audio inputs are already 32 bit no conversion is necessary so this actually saves a bit of CPU. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonD Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 12 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said: .... And as far as I'm aware, the Zoom is the only consumer grade interface that lets you record at 32 bit Actually, the current line of Steinberg interfaces also allow 32 bit (I own the UR24C). I'd be very surprised if these are the only ones. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reginaldStjohn Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 (edited) All I am trying to clear up is that as far I know and can find there is not such thing as anything better then a 24bit ADC to digitize audio type signals. For that matter, even if there was a 32 bit converter it would be an integer converter and not floating point. Zoom and others may be doing other things to combine multiple inputs or convert things to floating point internally. I would just be careful to believe the marketing terms without understanding the technical details. The below image is from the zoom UAC-232 specifications. They used to have the ADC bit depth but have obfuscated that with the 32 float/ 24 bit line. Edited October 5 by reginaldStjohn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Zonday Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 (edited) I'm so confused. Is this new "Cakewalk Sonar" a new build we have to pay for? AND it's different than the latest build of "Cakewalk by Bandlab," and ALSO different than "Cakewalk Next" which comes with a Bandlab subscription? I'm happy to pay for the latest build (I have used Cakewalk for 27 years), it's just hard to know what the product line and roadmap is now. Edited October 6 by Tay Zonday 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bachman Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 1 hour ago, Tay Zonday said: I'm so confused. Is this new "Cakewalk Sonar" a new build we have to pay for? AND it's different than the latest build of "Cakewalk by Bandlab," and ALSO different than "Cakewalk Next" which comes with a Bandlab subscription? I'm happy to pay for the latest build (I have used Cakewalk for 27 years), it's just hard to know what the product line and roadmap is now. Yes - Cakewalk Sonar is different from Cakewalk by Bandlab and Cakewalk Next. And Sonar should also come with the bandlab subscription. I hope this helps you. If you have a bandlab subscription, you should be good to go. The "new" Sonar is awesome. Cheers! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 I think Noel pretty much nailed it. I believe that with the Zoom interface, 32 bits is about gain-staging more than fidelity. It's like a digital version of the Sony recorder that recorded analog audio into channels at two different levels. If there was an accidental overload on the more sensitive channel, it switched to the less sensitive one that wasn't overloaded. It was a process that effectively extended the dynamic range of analog recording. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Borthwick Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 7 hours ago, Tay Zonday said: I'm so confused. Is this new "Cakewalk Sonar" a new build we have to pay for? AND it's different than the latest build of "Cakewalk by Bandlab," and ALSO different than "Cakewalk Next" which comes with a Bandlab subscription? I'm happy to pay for the latest build (I have used Cakewalk for 27 years), it's just hard to know what the product line and roadmap is now. @Tay Zonday both Cakewalk Sonar and Next are paid products currently only available via BandLab membership. This information has been available on our website for quite some time now. See screenshot. There is also an FAQ at the bottom of the page that explains more about membership. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Zonday Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 (edited) 5 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said: @Tay Zonday both Cakewalk Sonar and Next are paid products currently only available via BandLab membership. This information has been available on our website for quite some time now. See screenshot. There is also an FAQ at the bottom of the page that explains more about membership. I suspect there are other curmudgeons like myself using "Cakewalk By Bandlab" who will gladly pay for "Cakewalk Sonar" but are confused about the upgrade path. It would make a BIG difference if "Cakewalk Sonar" auto-installed from the Windows Bandlab assistant when one became a paying member. That would intuitively mirror the experience of "Cakewalk By Bandlab." I originally tried opening "Cakewalk By Bandlab" projects in "Cakewalk Next" and I don't think that product is designed to inherit desktop project workflows quite yet. I then realized that "Cakewalk Sonar" was the intended upgrade path for 42-year-olds like me accustomed to Desktop workflow. It's GREAT to make something in the Windows app store ecosystem that bridges with mobile app product design (I assume that's what Cakewalk NEXT aspires to be). But it strikes me as not being as ready to open projects with fifty tracks, 200 rack VSTs and 40 gigabytes in the project audio folder as "Cakewalk Sonar." 😉 You have moved mountains repeatedly to keep the best DAW in human history thriving. It's great to see you replying! Edited October 6 by Tay Zonday 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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