How to use reference tracks witbout having to buy them?

[T Boog]

Hi guys. I'm just learning to mix and I'm realizing that the first reference track I try usually isn't the best. And I cant afford to keep buying songs from itunes. How can I get song MP3s(even if it's just partial songs/samples) into Cakewalk to use as a reference?

Btw, I'm no computer wiz so I'm hoping there's a relatively straight forward(easy 😉) method. Thanks!

 

[Pathfinder]

44 minutes ago, T Boog said:

Hi guys. I'm just learning to mix and I'm realizing that the first reference track I try usually isn't the best. And I cant afford to keep buying songs from itunes. How can I get song MP3s(even if it's just partial songs/samples) into Cakewalk to use as a reference?

Btw, I'm no computer wiz so I'm hoping there's a relatively straight forward(easy 😉) method. Thanks!

 

One easy way is youtube. Many options but I have found that 4K Youtube to MP3, which costs a whopping $15 is a great tool. You can also get the audio without this app but i like how easy it makes it.

[Lynn Wilson]

Can you not rip a song from a CD that you own already?  There are free programs that rip songs from a CD, just google them.

[DeeringAmps]

21 minutes ago, Lynn Wilson said:

There are free programs that rip songs

CbB does that Import>From CD

From the main File drop down IIRC. 
 

I just pull up YT, hit record in CbB, we’ll actually, in Sonar now. As if by magic, Boom, reference track. 

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

4K Youtube to MP3

$15, is a no brainer, off to YT to sign up; thanks Path!

t

[Bristol_Jonesey]

27 minutes ago, Lynn Wilson said:

Can you not rip a song from a CD that you own already?  There are free programs that rip songs from a CD, just google them.

Exactly what I do.

Remember to route it directly to your main outs, bypassing any mastering Fx.

[Duncan Stitt]

Quote

How to use reference tracks without having to buy them?

To clarify, you want to use someone else's work as a learning tool to make your own work sound better, but you don't want to pay for it? This is the attitude that's killing the music business - the very same business we aspire to be a part of.

A couple of other music-related forums I've frequented over the years would have flagged this thread for advocating for music piracy, but I'm old and, obviously, times have changed.

[steve@baselines.com]

5 minutes ago, Duncan Stitt said:

To clarify, you want to use someone else's work as a learning tool to make your own work sound better, but you don't want to pay for it? This is the attitude that's killing the music business - the very same business we aspire to be a part of.

A couple of other music-related forums I've frequented over the years would have flagged this thread for advocating for music piracy, but I'm old and, obviously, times have changed.

Time to lighten up a bit Duncan.  The material he is looking for can be found for free anyway.  This is not the 'piracy' that is causing the losses.  Better to concentrate on other major offenses.

[steve@baselines.com]

If you are satisfied with mp3 reference tracks, you will be neglecting the higher frequencies.  I don't remember for sure, but I think the same thing holds for ripped versions from CDs.  Most people won't notice, particularly if you only supply mp3 versions to distribution points.  But the more your ear progresses over time, the more you will notice the difference between mp3 and wav.

 

[John Vere]

My favourite reference track is one of my own masters. It took 10 years to get that sucker to sound exactly the way I want my songs to sound. 
I don’t really want to sound like someone else so there you go. 
 

When I did try references tracks from my CD collection I found many of mine are older masters and so were made from the masters used for LP replication. 
There were like 16 LUFS. 

Mp3 is out of the question if you are serious. But they can serve a purpose of training your ears to learn about your headphones and monitors. 
My interfaces all have Loopback so it’s pretty simple to record songs off YouTube. I pay an annual fee which is a pathetic donation to   the music community but that’s not anything I can fix. 
 

[AB99]

What about mp3 at 320kbps.  Seems to go up to 20khz.

[T Boog]

53 minutes ago, steve@baselines.com said:

lighten up a bit Duncan

Thanks for saying it. Again, I'm happy with just a 30 sec sample of a song.

Also, as I alluded to in my orig post, the problem is having to try multiple references to find the right one. 

I'm happy to pay for the one song I end up using but I can't keep paying for all the ones that dont work out along the way.

Btw, In the late 90's, I helped write the software for Napster. (Don't tell Duncan 🤫)

[T Boog]

44 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Mp3 is out of the question if you are serious. But they can serve a purpose of training your ears to learn about your headphones and monitors. 

Thanks John. Yeah, Im just trying to get in the ballpark as well as learn my speakers.

[Mr No Name]

ripping a song off of youtube won't provide the correct LUFS value as the original track, so is pretty useless, the best way is to use a wav or flac track, the trick is to use a few of your favourite songs as a reference, buy them from bandcamp or someplace. This is for mastering purposes obviously.

if you are wanting to use reference tracks for mixing it might not matter, but it seems counterintuitive to use another song as a reference for a mix, every song should have it's own unique mixdown, that's the art of mixing.  ?

 

find a guide for gain structure and use that, basically mix your bass and kick drum together first using a VU meter , when both combined hitting about 0 on the needle, and mix the rest in to suit.  (a VU meter should be calibrated to far lower than 0dbfs   (digital 0) between -18 and -12 dbfs)

https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/118131269-how-to-balance-kick-and-bass-in-a-mix

[Helios.G]

1 hour ago, T Boog said:

Thanks for saying it. Again, I'm happy with just a 30 sec sample of a song.

Also, as I alluded to in my orig post, the problem is having to try multiple references to find the right one. 

I'm happy to pay for the one song I end up using but I can't keep paying for all the ones that dont work out along the way.

Btw, In the late 90's, I helped write the software for Napster. (Don't tell Duncan 🤫)

I'll tell you what I do.  I make a folder for 3 songs that are in the vein of what my project is going to be.  Look for similarities in tone and production.  Then I find them on amazon and buy them from there for about a dollar and change.  Once imported to cakewalk, I compare and contrast and pick the one that I think is the closest tonally to my song.  After that I use a program I have called UVR 5 (ultimate vocal remover) that is free and open source.  This program splits songs into different parts, bass, drums, music and vocals.  Once I do that, I import the split stems, and the orginal into a folder in cakewalk which I call reference.  Make sure to route the output of these 5 tracks to the main output of your interface and not your master bus.   Lower the level of all the reference tracks so that they roughly match the song you're working on.  Once I start my mix, I work the static mix first to sound roughly level with the individual stems of my reference.  Once that's done, I do some light eq on the master to match the tone (brighten, darken, whatever) of my track to the reference, then add some bus compression to glue everything together lightly, one to two db of compression should do.  Once that's done, I work down my busses and compare and contrast by section, using the split stems of the reference to measure how far off or not I am tonally.  I work this way for about 75% of the way, then I mute the reference and finish the mix on my own.  By this point you should have a reasonable enough facsimile of your reference tonaly, but still have enough wiggle room to give it your own flair.  The idea is to get it in the ballpark, so that it sounds professional, not identical.  Good luck!

 

Edited June 22 by Helios.G

[T Boog]

12 minutes ago, Mr No Name said:

every song should have it's own unique mixdown, that's the art of mixing. 

10 minutes ago, Mr No Name said:

every song should have it's own unique mixdown, that's the art of mixing.  ?

Thanks. That's what's been a bit of a challenge is my song is pretty unique. I ended up not using bass guitar because my piano(left hand) & cello take up a lot of that low end. It kinda sounds like an Mtv Unplugged acoustic thing. Which I love too. But yeah, finding the right reference has been a lil tricky. Esp since I'm learning this stuff for the first time. Oh well, I figure some trial & error is to be expected.

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

CbB does that Import>From CD

From the main File drop down IIRC. 
 

I just pull up YT, hit record in CbB, we’ll actually, in Sonar now. As if by magic, Boom, reference track. 

$15, is a no brainer, off to YT to sign up; thanks Path!

t

I just checked Tom and you can set the MP3 quality to your liking. Mine i set at 320kbps!

Edited June 22 by Pathfinder

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

I use somewhere between 300- 400 reference tracks a year

You can grab them from straight from Youtube at 256k which is perfectly fine for referencing purposes. Most of what what makes a great mix isn't in the super Hi-Fi stuff anyway ( i.e. a great mix will sound great on a crappy radio as well  )

It's much more about arrangement , mix balancing , midrange translation, production tricks, sound design etc. than it is ultimate fidelity of the file.    

Edited June 22 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[Duncan Stitt]

"Time to lighten up a bit Duncan.  The material he is looking for can be found for free anyway.  This is not the 'piracy' that is causing the losses.  Better to concentrate on other major offenses."

Free music on the internet is exactly why the music business collapsed. Prior to Napster, musicians and songwriters could make a good living from mechanical royalties. Today, they have to drive for Uber. I agree that streaming services are only adding to the problem, but the problem originated with free music on the internet, and as long as stealing music remains acceptable in the public eye, the creators will continue to suffer. As creators ourselves, it's in our best interests to discourage music piracy, not condone it.

For the OP: here's a national act based on piano, cello and voice:

https://www.brandenjames.com/music?pgid=ktq4ifr3-c08ea239-dd22-4d4a-aa72-1b89d2bda23a

[Mr No Name]

1 hour ago, T Boog said:

Thanks. That's what's been a bit of a challenge is my song is pretty unique. I ended up not using bass guitar because my piano(left hand) & cello take up a lot of that low end. It kinda sounds like an Mtv Unplugged acoustic thing. Which I love too. But yeah, finding the right reference has been a lil tricky. Esp since I'm learning this stuff for the first time. Oh well, I figure some trial & error is to be expected.

The idea is the same, you need to leave yourself plenty of headroom, be much easier to mix a cello and a piano together.

 

this is one of my favourite classical pieces, I'd recommend this a reference. One of the finest renditions of it I've encountered.

 

 

[T Boog]

31 minutes ago, Duncan Stitt said:

Free music on the internet is exactly why the music business collapsed.

I feel u yeah Duncan. Btw, Im a 53 yr old lifelong songwriter too. Lars Ulrich was 100% right to fight against Napster and every other artist shoulda fought too. I dont blame the Eagles, Prince, Floyd etc for blocking their music at all.

Also, I can see how the way I worded my post could cause a knee jerk reaction but I'm not trying to hustle the system my friend.

So far Ive purchased 9 songs to mix one track and I'll prob never listen to those downloads again. I don't even have itunes on my phone. Im just looking for a better way to go about this at least until I know more of what to look for in a reference track. Cheers my friend and oh btw...  Lighten Up! 😄