Re: Exporting Cakewalk Projects (.CWP) to Reaper

[TedPiano]

Hi All,

Re: Exporting Cakewalk Projects (.CWP) to Reaper

As some of you know I’ve been having major problems with CBB etc – the Tech guy’s are being very helpful but in the interim time while working out solutions I came across a You Tube Video by Gerad Deuvall which mentions installing azslow into Reaper – which then allows Reaper to Accept the Sonar/CBB files

Are any of you using this method/or aware of updates in Reaper that have incorporated the azslow install?

Once again just trying to carry on till CBB is up and running and therefore just trying to set up a backup option/plan.

I suppose it's the same scenario as providing CBB files to a collaborator using a different program e.g. Reaper or Pro Tool etc i.e. what do they need to do for their DAW to accept the Sonar/CBB Files

Anyway any advice/opinions most welcome

Best

Ed

[martsave martin s]

Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks (public alpha)

Edited September 17, 2019 by martsave martin s

[TedPiano]

Hi Martsave - thanks very much - will follow up 

Also I forgot to thank all you Guy's like Chuck E & Michael for all the help

Very best

Ed

[martsave martin s]

if yours projects are not too complex it will work..

[paulo]

I tried it during the dark days as a potential back up should the worst happen and it didn't really work for me. The projects I tried did open in Reaper but were a total mess. Some reported good results though so I guess it depends on how your projects are set up.

[Some Guy]

Export an OMF (v2) from Cakewalk and use AATranslator ($199 version requires).

Edited September 22, 2019 by Some Guy

[msmcleod]

OMF will only give you a very basic export, and you still have to do your MIDI tracks separately. It's really not that more different from exporting your tracks as WAV files, except that they're combined into one file.

@paulo - have you tried contacting @azslow3 directly? AFAIK his converter was based on the project files he had to hand, so its very likely there's plenty of scenarios that aren't covered. Of course there will be certain project configurations that just won't map across as they are after all different DAWs... but its worth a try.

 

[SuiteSpot]

The OP's best bet is azslow3's Reaper plugin.
Sonar's OMF implementation not only contravenes the 'specification' (for what that is worth) by allowing stereo media to be referenced and making it difficult for many other DAWs to open but it contains only the barest of detail such that exporting stems would be be better option.

While AATranslator is normally the best recommendation for most scenarios in this case (and for the above mentioned reasons) it is not the best bang for your buck.

Now having said that I am literally right this minute working on adding functionality to AATranslator to read native Sonar session files and hope to have that in the next official release but even so for Sonar to Reaper I would still recommend azslow's Reaper plugin.  Any other format it would have to be AATranslator ? 

BTW In the meantime for other destination DAWs you can convert to Reaper using azslow's plugin and then use AATranslator to convert from Reaper to any other supported format.

[Jon L. Jacobi]

Export stems. Then you can use any DAW.

[Some Guy]

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

OMF will only give you a very basic export, and you still have to do your MIDI tracks separately. It's really not that more different from exporting your tracks as WAV files, except that they're combined into one file.

@paulo - have you tried contacting @azslow3 directly? AFAIK his converter was based on the project files he had to hand, so its very likely there's plenty of scenarios that aren't covered. Of course there will be certain project configurations that just won't map across as they are after all different DAWs... but its worth a try.

 

Wave files are even more basic than OMF v2, so that's non-factor. MIDI transfer is easy. Waves are good If you're sending the project off for mastering, and very little editing is needed.

Honestly, it's easier to just buy Reaper for $60 and use it from the beginning on collaborative projects, if that is what the others are using. Or, have them use CbB.

@SuiteSpot Most (all?) DAWs allow stereo to be referenced (or embedded) in OMF v2, and this has always been the case. Not sure what you're talking about, since OMF was designed initially for Video Post Production, which uses stereo files (sound effects, etc) quite a lot.

Pro Tools had a limitation where it only supported Mono Tracks, so the convention of Splitting stereo into mono pairs became commonplace. Pro Tools is industry standard for Video Post Production, and in recording studios, so its limitation influenced workflows.

Most other DAWs did not have this limitation.

Nothing in the OMF spec forbids referencing Stereo Clips.

Cakewalk has a checkbox in the OMF export dialog for splitting stereo into dual mono. Other DAWs and NLEs have this, and may call it a "Pro Tools Compatible" setting. AAF files (and support) are similar. 

Stems are the LCD and will work everywhere. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Some Guy

[Bapu]

1 hour ago, SuiteSpot said:

The OP's best bet is azslow3's Reaper plugin.
Sonar's OMF implementation not only contravenes the 'specification' (for what that is worth) by allowing stereo media to be referenced and making it difficult for many other DAWs to open but it contains only the barest of detail such that exporting stems would be be better option.

While AATranslator is normally the best recommendation for most scenarios in this case (and for the above mentioned reasons) it is not the best bang for your buck.

Now having said that I am literally right this minute working on adding functionality to AATranslator to read native Sonar session files and hope to have that in the next official release but even so for Sonar to Reaper I would still recommend azslow's Reaper plugin.  Any other format it would have to be AATranslator ? 

BTW In the meantime for other destination DAWs you can convert to Reaper using azslow's plugin and then use AATranslator to convert from Reaper to any other supported format.

So If I convert CbB to Reaper my AATranslator Enhanced version will allow me to convert from Reaper to (Studio One, Pro Tools & Mixbus) on Windows?

 

[SuiteSpot]

6 hours ago, Some Guy said:

Wave files are even more basic than OMF v2, so that's non-factor. MIDI transfer is easy. Waves are good If you're sending the project off for mastering, and very little editing is needed.

Honestly, it's easier to just buy Reaper for $60 and use it from the beginning on collaborative projects, if that is what the others are using. Or, have them use CbB.

Stems are the LCD and will work everywhere. 

@Some Guy This I can certainly agree with but not much else

"Most (all?) DAWs allow stereo to be referenced (or embedded) in OMF v2, and this has always been the case."
Steinberg and Sonar and probably Media Composer (but I haven't looked at that for a while) but pretty much no-one else

"Not sure what you're talking about, since OMF was designed initially for Video Post Production, which uses stereo files (sound effects, etc) quite a lot."

It was actually a counter to AES31 as Avid/Digi were not having any of that but that is another story.  We all know what is involved in Video Post Production but this has nothing to do with OMF. 

You will find that in almost every instance a reference video is supplied along with the OMF as the safest option and with the greatest chance of another DAW opening the OMF but that is no safeguard. An OMF standard? I think not. Just to complicate matters even Avid have two OMF (and AAF) variants - the PT one and the MC one and it is usually the MC one that causes the most drama.

Try opening a Sonar OMF with 2 mono tracks and a stereo track in say PT 12 HD and after dismissing the error message you will find that the stereo clip isn't referenced. Adobe  Audition (which has the best OMF converter 2nd to Avid) will tell you that encapsulated stereo files are not supported, Nuendo is fine with it. I could go on but OMF is out and AAF is the new (supposed) saviour.

Thank you for the link to the OMF specification but I have read it many times and it always makes me chuckle.

For me, the [unnecessary] complexity of OMF make it a "use at your own risk" format.  Although there are other formats that can be in the same category,  it is one of the worst. It is a self proclaimed standard that never should have been created.
Although the container format is always a standard, the methods of describing data within the container are not.
There are multiple ways of describing the same thing and since everyone has a slightly different way of doing things within the containers, they might as well not exist at all - a quick google search will find countless issues where one DAW can't open an OMF from another.
To call it any kind of standard is a joke.  OMF is literally a format within a container format (AAF and MXF are much worse because they are a format within a container within a structured storage format).

YMMV and I'm sure you know more about it than I and I certainly don't want to hijack this thread so I'm happy to defer to you.

[SuiteSpot]

5 hours ago, Bapu said:

So If I convert CbB to Reaper my AATranslator Enhanced version will allow me to convert from Reaper to (Studio One, Pro Tools & Mixbus) on Windows?

 

It certainly will.  Just email me via the web site and I'll hook you up with the latest beta version.

[Some Guy]

2 hours ago, SuiteSpot said:

"Most (all?) DAWs allow stereo to be referenced (or embedded) in OMF v2, and this has always been the case."
Steinberg and Sonar and probably Media Composer (but I haven't looked at that for a while) but pretty much no-one else

Cubase/Nuendo, Cakewalk, Samplitude/Sequoia, Old versions of Logic Pro had the same option... and a few others.

OMF support is not huge, as it has been usurped by AAF, and many DAWs that took too long to implement it have skipped it for AAF.  OMF is considered a legacy/dead interchange format (obsoleted by AAF).  Cakewalk doesn't, so OMF is the next best thing.  As a result of this, more DAWs these days support AAF than OMF... 

In any case, this had nothing to do with the OMF spec (or AAF, for that matter, where this worked identically in Pro Tools), but a limitation of the Pro Tools DAW itself.  OMF support across DAWs was always inconsistent, and many basically implemented as little as they could, to remain compatible with Pro Tools. 

Quote

Try opening a Sonar OMF with 2 mono tracks and a stereo track in say PT 12 HD and after dismissing the error message you will find that the stereo clip isn't referenced.

Quote

PT 12 HD

Quote

PT 12

Quote

PT

…  Umm... Correct. This is like saying you can't run a Windows executable on a Mac (without emulation, of course).  This is not expected to work in Pro Tools.  Try the Cakewalk generated OMF in a DAW that does not have this artificial limitation.

https://www.proaudiogirl.com/pro-tools-does-not-support-import-of-aaf-omf-references-to-multi-channel-audio-files/

Quote

The file formats AAF and OMF were designed to allow for multi-channel audio files. It makes sense because video software and audio software can have multi-channel tracks with stereo files, 5.0, 5.1 etc. The video software is doing what it should be, the file format is designed to work with it, but Pro Tools doesn’t do it (for an unknown reason).

This reasons are likely historical.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Some Guy

[SuiteSpot]

As you say "Pro Tools is industry standard for Video Post Production, and in recording studios, so its limitation influenced workflows" and I agree that "OMF support across DAWs was always inconsistent, and many basically implemented as little as they could, to remain compatible with Pro Tools" which meant that by default mono OMFs became the standard and to deliver anything else is always a courageous decision.

"OMF is considered a legacy/dead interchange format (obsoleted by AAF).  Cakewalk doesn't, so OMF is the next best thing."
Certainly, which is why I am currently looking at adding support for reading native .cwp session files.

Now poly-channel AAFs is much more interesting topic but probably best left for another time and another thread ?

[Some Guy]

Question has basically been answered for the OP, anyways.

1. Use AATranslator and go OMF -> RPP.

2. Vordio can generate a Reaper Session from FCPML.  Vordio is cheaper, but it's a Reaper-Specific Solution.  Export OMF, and then use an NLE to generate the FCPXML from the OMF.

3.  Bounce out the audio tracks as Stems.

… then export the MIDI and import directly into the Reaper Session.

OMF is becoming increasingly less viable as a reliable means of interchanging between DAWs, which hurts collaboration for those using CbB.  A lot of the "popular DAWs" don't support it at all (Reaper, Studio One, FL Studio - to name a few), and even less NLEs support it.  Many went straight to AAF (i.e. Studio One).

The only DAWs that support OMF are those that implemented it like a decade or more ago.  I think SONAR implemented OMF support at version 2.0 (released ca. 2002).

NLEs have actually been dropping OMF support, increasingly, as AAF and FCPXML are much better supported - and generally better implemented in client software.

49 minutes ago, SuiteSpot said:

which meant that by default mono OMFs became the standard

due to the ubiquity of Pro Tools, and competitors aiming for little more than compatibility with it... is not the same as saying the support for one DAW is "out of spec" because it doesn't default to generating Pro Tools-compatible OMFs; while Pro Tools itself is incompatible with perfectly spec-perfect OMF files - including those it can, itself, generate.

Neither Media Composer nor  Pro Tools have any issue generating AAFs with interleave tracks (they've been removing OMF support from their products, aforementioned).  Courage has little to do with it ?  It is a Pro Tools "limitation," and lots of software defaulted to it because the expected workflow was "to Pro Tools."

[SuiteSpot]

1 hour ago, Some Guy said:

Question has basically been answered for the OP, anyways.

1. Use AATranslator and go OMF -> RPP.

2. Vordio can generate a Reaper Session from FCPML.  Vordio is cheaper, but it's a Reaper-Specific Solution.  Export OMF, and then use an NLE to generate the FCPXML from the OMF.

3.  Bounce out the audio tracks as Stems.

… then export the MIDI and import directly into the Reaper Session.

Not quite

1. In the short term, before we implement support for native Sonar session file support,use Azslow's Reaper plugin to go from Sonar to Reaper (I would never ask a Sonar user to shell out $199 for Sonar OMF support I would rather they exported stems). Once we implement Sonar support you can forget about OMF.

2. Vordio is great for FCPXML to Reaper. Yes it is Reaper-specific but be careful when you say "cheaper". We have never charged for AATranslator updates - if you purchased AAT 10 years ago then you are still getting free updates. Not even Reaper can make that claim.

3. Stems are always the cheapest and least hassle and work no matter what

[paulo]

17 hours ago, msmcleod said:

@paulo - have you tried contacting @azslow3 directly? AFAIK his converter was based on the project files he had to hand, so its very likely there's plenty of scenarios that aren't covered. Of course there will be certain project configurations that just won't map across as they are after all different DAWs... but its worth a try.

Yes, there was some dialogue at the time and IIRC he said the problem was because of softsynths in instrument tracks. I'm not that bothered tbh as I don't particularly like Reaper anyway - it was only a worst case scenario experiment when the future of CW was unknown. 

[azslow3]

@OP: http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,406.0.html describes what and how is (and not) converted by ReaCWP. REAPER has full functional demo, ReaCWP is free. So you can easily check how that combination works.

 

On 9/22/2019 at 5:02 PM, SuiteSpot said:

Now having said that I am literally right this minute working on adding functionality to AATranslator to read native Sonar session files and hope to have that in the next official release but even so for Sonar to Reaper I would still recommend azslow's Reaper plugin.  Any other format it would have to be AATranslator ?

Written 2 years ago, that could save me a lot of fun writing ReaCWP ?

But I guess, as with other AATranslator formats, you are not going to touch MIDI and FXes. Still, respect if you manage to distribute file chunks along tracks correctly ?‍♀️

[SuiteSpot]

5 hours ago, azslow3 said:

@OP: http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,406.0.html describes what and how is (and not) converted by ReaCWP. REAPER has full functional demo, ReaCWP is free. So you can easily check how that combination works.

 

Written 2 years ago, that could save me a lot of fun writing ReaCWP ?

But I guess, as with other AATranslator formats, you are not going to touch MIDI and FXes. Still, respect if you manage to distribute file chunks along tracks correctly ?‍♀️

No we won't be adding midi or FX and as I have said many times you have done an excellent job and I have and will continue to recommend your plugin when converting from Sonar to Reaper even after we add Sonar to AATranslator.

And BTW having now worked out most of the internals of the .cwp it is I who give my respect to you for your deciphering efforts ?