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[PavlovsCat]

9 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

How many people in the street gonna say, "Nice piano. Too bad it lacks velocity layers."  A live musician lacks velocity layers.  A   flute in it's low end and extreme range lack velocity layers.

Huh? Technically that's incorrect and  it's profoundly incorrect. 

A sample library not having velocity layers means it has only one recording at a specific velocity.  Instruments and voice have variations,  and there's different resonances at different volumes. Sample developers try to approximate acoustic instruments by recording at various velocities due to that. A live singer has enormous variations when volume is changed, the equivalent of velocity. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[TheSteven]

9 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

How many people in the street gonna say, "Nice piano. Too bad it lacks velocity layers."  A live musician lacks velocity layers.  A   flute in it's low end and extreme range lack velocity layers.

Sorry but this is so off base.
Even at flute's extreme ranges pianississimo & fortississimo sound different.
Without velocity layers a sampled flute is going to sound like a cheap synth.   
"A live musician lacks velocity layers." ??
For example with vocals - you're saying there's no difference between whispering and screaming?  

With some songs a lack of velocity layers won't be an issue, with others it will be a major issue.
For example if I was doing a cover of Bohemian Rhapsody I wouldn't even try it with a dynamically limited piano.
The 'average' man might not recognize what was wrong but they would sense something was off.

Note that I haven't heard this piano nor do I intend on getting it as I already have too many virtual pianos.
It's possible that dynamic scripting (EQ/filtering) may make up the lack of velocity layers to some degree - after all that's how (in the old days) it use to be done with sampled instruments.  So this piano may be more flexible than just the number of velocity layers would imply.

Edited October 18, 2023 by TheSteven

[kitekrazy1]

3 minutes ago, TheSteven said:

Sorry but this is so off base.
Even at flute's extreme ranges pianississimo & fortississimo sound different.
Without velocity layers a sampled flute is going to sound like a cheap synth.   
"A live musician lacks velocity layers." ??
For example with vocals - you're saying there's no difference between whispering and screaming?  

With some songs a lack of velocity layers won't be an issue, with others it will be a major issue.
For example if I was doing a cover of Bohemian Rhapsody I wouldn't even try it with a dynamically limited piano.
The 'average' man might not recognize what was wrong but they would sense something was off.

Hmmmmm not as much as you think.  A flute can't play pianissimo in the piccolo range.   If you can I'd love to hear it since I can't to this day.  Next you'll tell me a flute can play fortissimo at middle C.  

 My point is a human can't play 128 velocity layers.  How do you think they sample a piano? No human is touching it.

But no.........the average person wont detect many things.    Do you think they notice such things on a phone?

 

 

 

[kitekrazy1]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

Huh? Technically that's incorrect and  it's profoundly incorrect. 

A sample library not having velocity layers means it has only one recording at a specific velocity.  Instruments and voice have variations,  and there's different resonances at different volumes. Sample developers try to approximate acoustic instruments by recording at various velocities due to that. A live singer has enormous variations when volume is changed, the equivalent of velocity. 

Cherry picking the extreme ........... of course my extreme is 128 different velocity layers.   People don't perform 128 layers.

Yet you can sell a library and charge whatever you want if you advertise 128 layers.   

Edited October 18, 2023 by kitekrazy

[TheSteven]

Just now, kitekrazy said:

Hmmmmm not as much as you think.  A flute can't play pianissimo in the piccolo range.   If you can I'd love to hear it since I can't to this day.  Next you'll tell me a flute can play fortissimo at middle C.  

 My point is a human can't play 128 velocity layers.  How do you think they sample a piano? No human is touching it.

But no.........the average person wont detect many things.    Do you think they notice such things on a phone?

 

 

 

Some good points.
In terms of pianos - "a human can't play 128 velocity layers"
Yes they can, concert pianists do it all the time.
They just can't consistently hit a specified level multiple times in a row, for every key on the instrument at least not without getting tendentious.
They use a robot because it's more consistent and probably cheaper & faster than having a musician waste their time doing so. 

[kitekrazy1]

Just now, TheSteven said:

Some good points.
In terms of pianos - "a human can't play 128 velocity layers"
Yes they can, concert pianists do it all the time.
They just can't consistently hit a specified level multiple times in a row, for every key on the instrument at least not without getting tendentious.
They use a robot because it's more consistent and probably cheaper & faster than having a musician waste their time doing so. 

You don't know that.  We are talking 128.  How do you measure those 128 layers?   When does layer 64 not sound exactly like layer 79. 82, 67, .........yada, yada, yada,

Basically I'm not gonna fall for a library with zillion of layers thinking it is more realistic.  Last I heard people don't listen on high fidelity systems.  These are people who are not into DAWs.  

I get it when there are few layers like soundfonts but our ears are much different than the listener.  These people listen on phones.   No one does 3 way speakers and high end receiver.   

[PavlovsCat]

But here's the thing, those piano libraries promoting 128 velocity layers don't literally have  samples of 88 keys (and round robins) for 128 layers. They use programming, I think it can correctly be called modeling to simulate all of those layers,  right?  

Being realistic, there's a huge difference in the realism of piano sample libraries with 2 layers and one with 16 layers. In very simple terms, there are significant characteristics in a piano note struck very softly, moderately and struck with great force, very loudly. A 2 layer piano sample library is not going to handle a piece well  that encompasses a wide dynamic range. A non musician may not be able to figure out what is specifically wrong,  but depending on how exposed the piano is in a mix,  they'll just find the piano doesn't sound that good. Two layers is definitely not enough for a piano sample library unless the entire piece of music stays -- dynamically -- in the sampled  velocity range. For example,  if you have a piano piece of music that stays ppp through the entire song. If the samples were recorded of a piano playing pianississimo, then its going to work,  but if the piece only has that one velocity layer and the next section of the piece is mezzo-forte then forte, that sample will not sound right to the point an untrained ear will very likely realize that something isn't right. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[TheSteven]

Overall I agree with @PavlovsCat's last post.

3 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

You don't know that.  We are talking 128.  How do you measure those 128 layers?   When does layer 64 not sound exactly like layer 79. 82, 67, .........yada, yada, yada,

Basically I'm not gonna fall for a library with zillion of layers thinking it is more realistic.  Last I heard people don't listen on high fidelity systems.  These are people who are not into DAWs.  

I get it when there are few layers like soundfonts but our ears are much different than the listener.  These people listen on phones.   No one does 3 way speakers and high end receiver.   

I never said I thought sampling 128 layers was a requirement or even practical but that doesn't negate that you need a decent velocity range for reasonable expression. 
Regarding phones - that argument is dated and frankly agist. You're ignoring that many of those people are listening on decent earbuds many which have multiple drivers and better fidelity than the systems most of us grew up with.
Frankly most of those phones (without ear buds) sound better than the cassette players many of us toted around.

[PavlovsCat]

But @TheSteven (FTR, I could ask a developer, but you're a tech pro, so I think you'll know the answer) I don't think there's a single developer that has a piano library or VST that literally sampled 128 velocity layers -- wait is it actually 127 or is it 128?  I'm going to go with 127, because that's the max for MIDI. 

I believe that there isn't a piano sample library that has 127  velocity layers all fully sampled 127 (velocity layers) x 88 (keys) + round robins. Can someone confirm that?

Pianoteq MODELS 127 layers,  SoundPaint uses sampling and claims it has 127 layers for its pianos but uses modeling, not 127 individual sample layers. I've had the latter explained to me by a developer and he compared it to, I believe it was Yamaha, that he said used a similar modeling technique.   
 

Edited October 18, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[antler]

7 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

wait is it actually 127 or is it 128?

127. It derives from using 8 bits to represent numbers where the largest bit is used for negative values (two's-complement). As there are only 7 bits remaining we can represent 2^7 non-negative values. Including 0, the range is 0-127.

 

7 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

I believe that there isn't a piano sample library that has 127  velocity layers all fully sampled

That sounds about right; the disk and memory requirements would be enormous. 8Dio love Ultra Deep Sampling their instruments and I don't think even they do it.

[TheSteven]

8 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

But @TheSteven (FTR, I could ask a developer, but you're a tech pro, so I think you'll know the answer) I don't think there's a single developer that has a piano library or VST that literally sampled 128 velocity layers -- wait is it actually 127 or is it 128?  I'm going to go with 127, because that's the max for MIDI. 

I believe that there isn't a piano sample library that has 127  velocity layers all fully sampled 128 (velocity layers) x 88 (keys) + round robins. Can someone confirm that?

Pianoteq MODELS 127 layers,  SoundPaint uses sampling and claims it has 127 layers for its pianos but uses modeling, not 127 individual sample layers. I've had the latter explained to me by a developer and he compared it to, I believe it was Yamaha, that he said used a similar modeling technique.   
 

velocity 0 is silence... so as mentioned by @antler 127

No one/company in their right mind is going sample all 127 velocity layers for a piano.
While some of the features could be mimicked via programming by the time you add multiple mic positions, alternate round-robins samples (if taken), pedal resonances, lid open or closed, cat or singer lounging on piano lid,  etc. you'd require a terabyte+ drive just hold the samples and it'd probably play like a dog (i.e laggy as hell).

If you look at EastWest Quantum Leap Steinway D, which is regarded as an excellent sampled piano, it's 57.6 GB - just for the samples and the number of recorded velocities is far below 127.
Its specs are:

• Load any piano or mic position individually
• 3 mic positions (Platinum/Diamond); 1 mic position (Gold)
• 10–18 velocities per note of sustain and sustain with pedal
• 8–12 velocities per note of repetitions and repetitions with pedal
• 5–8 velocities of soft pedal and soft pedal with sustain pedal
• 16-velocity staccato on every piano
• Repetition samples taken from 180 BPM performances for a true repetition sound (not simply an alternate take)
• Software detects true repetitions
• Pedal resonance recorded for every note at multiple velocities, as well as with the soft pedal down
• Proprietary resonance captured on the Steinway
• Release samples with software envelope follower
• 8 Articulations on each piano include Sustain, Sustain with pedal, Repetitions, Repetitions with pedal, Soft pedal, Soft pedal with sustain pedal, Staccato, and Release trails
• Recorded in optimal piano environment with vintage Neumann microphones, Meitner AD converters, through a vintage Neve 8078 console
• Stereo swap possible in software
• Mic position mixing in software
• Lid position simulation
• Articulation matrix for quick and straightforward loading
• Powerful streaming engine available with highest polyphony counts

BTW I've been sitting on an extra license (nonregistered so no license transfer issues) for EW Quatum Leap Pianos Diamond that I was given by EW's European distributor in compensation for selling me an out of stock item when he was closing down his shop. PM/DM me if interested in picking it up a good price.

Edited October 18, 2023 by TheSteven
fixed typos