Slow project loading

[Jim Roseberry]

Configuring the 13900k is a lot more involved than previous generations.

If you set XMP and leave everything at "Auto", the machine will thermal-throttle running heavy stress-tests (Cinebench, OCCT, etc).

This is true even with a top-tier 420mm AIO.

 

No PageFault issues here (just double checked using the latest CbB build).

[satchmo-x]

Still haven't found a solution. This computer build is rockstar at everything other than loading Cakewalk projects, and in the effort to fix that, I was able to tune it even better.

On 10/3/2023 at 12:11 AM, mettelus said:

Wow, I cannot recall cakewalk itself ever throwing page faults on me, so that is just plain weird to see. Did this also happen with the 22.09 version or is it specific to the 23.09? 

The slow load time  behavior, yes, it's been happening since I got everything working back in March. Honestly, I can't say regarding the page faults. I just started digging deeper in to this on Sunday when I posted. I was hoping someone with a similar setup would just have the "Ah, yeah, I had that... change these two things" answer.

On 10/3/2023 at 10:08 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

Configuring the 13900k is a lot more involved than previous generations.

If you set XMP and leave everything at "Auto", the machine will thermal-throttle running heavy stress-tests (Cinebench, OCCT, etc).

This is true even with a top-tier 420mm AIO.

 

No PageFault issues here (just double checked using the latest CbB build).

Yes, yes it is. I did discover that ParkControl now supports controlling CPU parking on the 12th and 13th gen Intel CPUs. My system can now play "Time to Fly" at 32 sample buffers without late buffers almost every time. Enough that I feel very confident tracking even very complex projects with low latency. It still takes 22 seconds to open this project, Cakewalk hits many hard page faults during that, and shows as Not Responding in task manager until the project loads    

- Current BIOS settings are: C-States enabled, all cores enabled, XMP1 (5600 MHz), MCE disabled (caps CPU power at 125W/253W boost)
- ParkControl settings: parking disabled, set to standard instead of heterogenous, and short threads to Performant Processors

Result during playback at least is glorious:

 

Side note: Other than the noted ParkControl changes, everything else is the same as I usually run things. Cinebench scores a little over 37,000, with some of the individual performance cores just touching thermal throttling occasionally during the 10 minute benchmark (<5% of the time), with the CPU Package never hitting thermal throttle. This seems very reasonable and proper for this CPU.

Edited October 6, 2023 by satchmo-x
Uploaded better image

[David Danson]

Just to give you some idea of my credentials, I've been using sonar / cakewalk for over 20 years and been in the IT industry since mid 1976; I know PCs and windows pretty well; although forgotten most other than win 11. I was having this issue several years ago on one of my computers running win11; and it's now returned. I have 2 computers, both win11, both with (KB5031455) updates. Both have ample cpu power, memory, ssd, and hard drives.

Both work great for all things except the my fastest PC. Cakewalk works slowly, and sometimes hangs when loading mid files.

I have reinstalled cakewalk several times on the problematic computer and still not fixed. I have eliminated the loading of most of vst instruments and still problematic although much better.

What is interesting / puzzling is that, and here's something to try, open cakewalk (do it in administrator mode), with the 'cakewalk start screen' showing, open and close various midi files. These should open virtually instantaneously; less that a second. Close the project, (not cakewalk) and again instantaneous. (On my fastest, newest, most plentiful computer, closing down a project sometimes takes 4-5 seconds. The windows cursor changes to the windows blue circle (hour glass) and this happens more when closing the project, rarely when opening.  The more I went through this, maybe 10-20 projects, system became much faster; almost as though it was learning the process!)

It is now acceptable although sometimes still takes 4-5 seconds to close a project. My 5 year old i7 computer does it with no delay.
Start testing with just one vst and increase the numbers.
Still can't advise on what the issue is but think it is cakewalk/hardware implementation related. 

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

Have you by any chance got Kontakt 7 in any of the slow loading projects as it does a re-scan of everything the first time you load it which slows down project load time considerably here.

Once it's done it the first time it subsequently loads much faster.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[msmcleod]

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Have you by any chance got Kontakt 7 in any of the slow loading projects as it does a re-scan of everything the first time you load it which slows down project load time considerably here.

Once it's done it the first time it subsequently loads much faster.  

There are also options within Kontakt to tell it how many of the samples to load - i.e. all of them, or only to load "n" Mb, then the rest on demand.

If Kontakt is configured to load all of the samples, it'll not only take an age to load a project, it'll take forever to shut down too as it frees up GB's of memory.

What I tend to do is set it to load everything on demand, then play the project through once.  This ensures it's only loaded the samples for the notes / velocities it's actually using.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

29 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

If Kontakt is configured to load all of the samples, it'll not only take an age to load a project, it'll take forever to shut down too as it frees up GB's of memory.

I'm not talking about loading the samples for the project. 

Even if empty , when it loads for the first time it does a scan / update for any new libraries which takes time. 

[Milton Sica]

There are constant reports of slowness from users of the latest version. There is this specific topic and also in the feedback post, but these comments seem to be relegated to the third or fourth level, if not at all, with the search for a justification always being sought.

One time it's Kontakt, another time a plugin, another time configuring the user's station and so on.

And I'll reinforce: yes, the program is slower to load projects.

[gustabo]

24 minutes ago, Milton Sica said:

There are constant reports of slowness from users of the latest version. There is this specific topic and also in the feedback post, but these comments seem to be relegated to the third or fourth level, if not at all, with the search for a justification always being sought.

One time it's Kontakt, another time a plugin, another time configuring the user's station and so on.

And I'll reinforce: yes, the program is slower to load projects.

Can't reproduce "slower to load projects", it is the same here, both audio centric and midi-centric projects.

[satchmo-x]

On 10/29/2023 at 6:17 AM, gustabo said:

Can't reproduce "slower to load projects", it is the same here, both audio centric and midi-centric projects.

I'm certainly still having this issue of slow project loading on this otherwise insanely fast computer.  I have the issue on my new computer with seemingly all Cakewalk projects created after a certain date or Cakewalk release. I skipped from Sonar 8 Producer to Sonar Platinum w/Lifetime Updates. Projects first created in Sonar 8 open very fast, and projects first created with 2017 Sonar Platinum or later peg a CPU core for 18 seconds before opening. Something had to have changed either between those file versions or the default UI or other configuration that induces this problem on this particular hardware setup.

I don't own Kontakt.

I did the following test to confirm it's related to the version of Cakewalk that initially created the project. I copied the entire directory structure of one of my most complex projects last saved in 2010. It has over 20 tracks of audio and MIDI, multiple plugins, synths/virtual instruments, mix automation, V-Vocal correction used for timing tweaks, etc. I renamed the cloned project file, opened that, and made a couple small changes. I also added a new track to get a functional ProChannel EQ, made some changes to that EQ, and did a "Save As" to a 3rd file name. That new tweaked and resaved version still opens in 4 seconds just like the original 2010 file. Yet, a completely empty project with no plugins that was initially created with anything from the 2017 Sonar Platinum or later takes 18 seconds to open on the same hardware. It's bizarre.

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, satchmo-x said:

Yet, a completely empty project with no plugins that was initially created with anything from the 2017 Sonar Platinum or later

Have you been using a common custom template to start all your porojects since then? If you open the Media browser what directory does it default to, and is it the same as the fast-opening projects? 

[satchmo-x]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

Have you been using a common custom template to start all your porojects since then? If you open the Media browser what directory does it default to, and is it the same as the fast-opening projects? 

Well, I think you just helped me nail the what/when (although I'm not sure this is what you were driving at). If I close the media browser on a newer empty project and save, it now opens in less than a second. Subsequently opening the media browser after opening that project takes just under 18 seconds. The old projects don't have Media Browser opened at load time. Opening Media browser on an old project also  takes just under 18 seconds. Thank you for helping me find the culprit!!! It's Media Browser!

So, now.... why?

[David Baay]

Look for a large zip archive in the path that the media browser is referencing or possibly on your desktop.

[satchmo-x]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

Look for a large zip archive in the path that the media browser is referencing or possibly on your desktop.

There are many directories involved between that and the File  Folders, Plugins, etc in Preferences, but I'll try to look. I found a 1.4 GB zip named "Cakewalk-SONAR8.zip" in one of those folders. I moved it out of the known paths, with no benefit. Plus, Media Browser seems to open as a default to the top level of what Windows thinks is a reasonable view in File Explorer, which is the obfuscated Profile oriented BS view of the filesystem. That makes me worry that it could be a zip file anywhere on the  13 tebibytes of storage across 4 drives that this computer has ? It also sounds like a bug to see behavior like this just from having large archive files on the filesystem somewhere. It's very possible guaranteed I'm not familiar with the inner workings of Media Browser, but I'm guessing you are from the suggestions you have. Care to enlighten me?

Edited November 3, 2023 by satchmo-x

[HIBI]

This comment (and topic) below may give you a hint.
(I thought @David Baay suggested based on this.)

 

[David Baay]

See Noel Borthwick's explanation in the following thread from last year about this issue that was recently bumped to life. If you re-save the project with the the Media Browser set to a different location it will re-open to that location (default would be \Cakewalk Content \Audio Library). It's not entirely clear why it sometime picks up on archive files in other Locations, but I've run into myself as mentioned in that thread.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by David Baay

[HIBI]

Oops, seems we were writing at about the same time and looks like my comment wasn't necessary. Sorry, @David Baay

[David Baay]

33 minutes ago, HIBI said:

Oops, seems we were writing at about the same time and looks like my comment wasn't necessary. Sorry, @David Baay

Not at all. You beat me by a second, and I figured you had picked up on that thread, but I pushed the button anyway.

[satchmo-x]

@David Baay and @HIBI, thank you a ton! (and thanks to the other people trying my test files, reporting back, offering suggestions and knowledge).

This problem now has a workaround. Watching file accesses in Resource Manager while opening projects over and over, one ZIP file finally stood out. I'd zipped my user profile from my old computer to the second drive to transfer it, resulting in a 13 GB zip at the top level of D:/.  That file obviously didn't exist on the old computer, thus why the new computer has been having this problem but my old computers didn't. I moved the file, and now opening any project is fast.

Seems like there's something fixable here, but at minimum, documentation should really call this out. I think this is really odd behavior, and was a real headscratcher to troubleshoot. Why doesn't File Explorer by itself exhibit this issue if that's what Cakewalk is supposedly using behind the scenes? I navigate to the top level of D:/ many times a day. Also, I can navigate in to that 13 GB zip file in File Explorer nearly instantly. Disabling Defender file scans or adding the file to the scan exception list also makes no difference in project open times.

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

Tim

[Quinellipe Zorn]

Fascinating, thanks for keeping us updated @satchmo-x.  That large file thing is quite intriguing to me.  On some occasion this year Cakewalk was opening projects quite slowly, and then it suddenly went back to its typical faster times, perhaps some relationship to this file issue of some sort, as I can be moving files around and zipping things in cleansing at arbitrary times.  If it happens again I hope I will remember to look for unusual file changes.  Anyway, mainly just glad you got it working, that's great!