Bandcamp sold to Songtradr (not a deal)

[satya]

https://musictech.com/news/music/epic-games-sells-bandcamp-to-songtradr/

Music marketplace Bandcamp has been sold by Epic Games to music marketing company Songtradr just 18 months after it was acquired. For undisclosed sum

[Sander Verstraten]

Duplicate:
 

 

[paulo]

This one time, at bandcamp.........

[telecode 101]

Oh man. So what does this all mean? 
 

no seriously.  I was putting all my bets that band camp was gonna be the new business model for indie artists. WTF!!

[Starship Krupa]

22 hours ago, telecode 101 said:

Oh man. So what does this all mean? 

no seriously.  I was putting all my bets that band camp was gonna be the new business model for indie artists. WTF!!

Is there anything about this announcement that makes you think that's no longer going to be the case?

Bandcamp strikes me as something that any company who owned it and screwed it up would face a ton of ill will.

If there are now to be tools to help people license their music, I think that's a good thing. As long as they don't do something stupid like making a rule that if you want to sell through Bandcamp, you have to stick to their licensing company or whatever.

[user 905133]

2 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Is there anything about this announcement that makes you think that's no longer going to be the case?

Bandcamp strikes me as something that any company who owned it and screwed it up would face a ton of ill will.

If there are now to be tools to help people license their music, I think that's a good thing. As long as they don't do something stupid like making a rule that if you want to sell through Bandcamp, you have to stick to their licensing company or whatever.

Hmmmm.  I know a lot of artists that distribute their music via Bandcamp. As a consumer of music, I appreciate that I can listen and then choose whether or not I want to support an artist. Also (again as a consumer), I like that artists can set their own prices, run their own promotions, etc..  The same holds true for people I know that have used Bandcamp for their netlabels.  I have found that is a great way to find music I might not have otherwise been exposed to.

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, User 905133 said:

Hmmmm.  I know a lot of artists that distribute their music via Bandcamp. As a consumer of music, I appreciate that I can listen and then choose whether or not I want to support an artist. Also (again as a consumer), I like that artists can set their own prices, run their own promotions, etc..  The same holds true for people I know that have used Bandcamp for their netlabels.  I have found that is a great way to find music I might not have otherwise been exposed to.

I've used Bandcamp both as a creator and consumer of music and I agree.

I'd also add that one of my favorite things about it is that if I buy someone's album for $10, the person receives the great bulk of that.

Selling 10,000 copies of an album back in the record company days meant you owed the record company a fortune and if the next one didn't sell at least 10X that you'd be done for. Selling 1,000 copies of your album through Bandcamp means that you've got housing covered for a year.

Bandcamp rules my musical world, it's the first place I look when I want to buy the music of someone I just heard of.

Also, 2 different times, I've asked an artist how I could buy a song or album that wasn't listed for sale on Bandcamp and the artists I asked just sent me a free copy of the single (Chris Zippel) or album (Under The Radar) I asked about.

[telecode 101]

I looked up Songtradr and don’t quite understand what that company is. Do they license music to be used by for profit entities like ad agencies and tv show and what not? If so, then where does that place musicians that operate in the indie alternative sphere? People making music and releasing music that is not intentionally pre pared to be used for selling something else? 

[Conteloto]

16 minutes ago, telecode 101 said:

I looked up Songtradr and don’t quite understand what that company is. Do they license music to be used by for profit entities like ad agencies and tv show and what not? If so, then where does that place musicians that operate in the indie alternative sphere? People making music and releasing music that is not intentionally pre pared to be used for selling something else? 

Songtradr is used to distribute music to digital platforms too, Spotify, AppleMusic ...

Edited October 1, 2023 by Conteloto

[mibby]

I echo everyone's sentiments here, but for a glass half-full perspective - maybe this could be good?  Maybe it'll give Bandcamp some revenue to set up a decent and competitive streaming system. (i.e. one that's easy to use, doesn't stop your stream if you change pages, and more importantly, has a good algorithm for suggesting new artists) 

Honestly, Bandcamp is pretty much my last choice if I just want to listen or find random stuff I might like. I avoid Bandcamp unless I want to buy something to directly support an artist because the stuff they shove at me is pretty irrelevant to my interests in most cases. 

But I DO love it for directly supporting artists and giving me a place to "archive" my finished projects online.

Just my 2 cents.

[JoeGBradford]

Hope they keep the monthly  Bandcamp Fridays where the artist gets the full price of their product

[JT music]

16 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Hmmmm.  I know a lot of artists that distribute their music via Bandcamp. As a consumer of music, I appreciate that I can listen and then choose whether or not I want to support an artist. Also (again as a consumer), I like that artists can set their own prices, run their own promotions, etc..  The same holds true for people I know that have used Bandcamp for their netlabels.  I have found that is a great way to find music I might not have otherwise been exposed to.

It's been a while since this is so, nowadays Bandcamp does not sell more than nothing itself obviously the business model is outdated and surely it was given away (sold cheap) to the first bidder what we will see now that they transform it, which would not be at all unusual to change the rules of the game in terms of licenses and authorship of the songs.

[Starship Krupa]

8 hours ago, telecode 101 said:

I looked up Songtradr and don’t quite understand what that company is. Do they license music to be used by for profit entities like ad agencies and tv show and what not? If so, then where does that place musicians that operate in the indie alternative sphere? People making music and releasing music that is not intentionally pre pared to be used for selling something else? 

I'd say that it leaves us in the same place where we are now.

Bandcamp as a business is being bought by another company. They could leave it exactly as it is or make changes. They may wish to integrate some of the functions of the parent company with Bandcamp or they may not.

[PavlovsCat]

Speaking of 2 cents, I can't help but wonder how much money anyone who's not young and doing live, well-attended shows in person with a decent size following or that has well-viewed social media shows and appearances (e.g., YouTube, TikTok, etc.) can make just putting their songs on BandCamp? I can't imagine there is a realistic hope of making much there; it's just not realistic.

It's so complex to get noticed online for music, even if you are fantastically talented. Of course, like anything else, you have to start with something really special, a great product that appeals to people and that's not easy to do with music. Music that's really compelling to a group of people and of course, it needs to be polished even if it's songs about cats or something off the wall. Even then, if you have that great product / art, finding and reaching the right audience that enjoys it AND is willing to pay for it is the next hurdle and that almost always requires spending on promotions, be it advertising, sponsorship, getting on playlists or popular influencer channels, etc. Rarely is someone out of nowhere without any serious awareness-building effort simply found by a sizable group of consumers eager for to listen to and pay for their content without serious promotion and costs. Those days are generally over.  If I were a young working musician today, I'd be spending a lot of energy trying to make the best music possible and then figuring out ways to build my audience offline AND online. But I don't see most BandCamp creators actively doing those things and I think it's the land of lost hopes and dreams for 90% of the creators there, and a really easy place for those with unrealistic hopes to see them fade. I also wonder how well BandCamp can do if they're not charging creators, because the folks who consume just don't seem to be there in significant quantities. To be clear, I realize that BandCamp is, or at least once was, profitable. But I do wonder about the potential of their model for the average creator and how they can grow their revenue. That is, I think for the overwhelming majority of creators, they're going to be disappointed. They won't draw an audience and they won't produce much revenue. Which is bad for them and bad for BandCamp IF BandCamp is counting on creators' music as their primary source of revenue. I would expect that BandCamp is going to need to derive a significant source of revenue FROM creators to keep growing by doing things like making revenue from tools creators use, which is what Bandlab's owners have been trying to do (now this is what Musk has attempted to do, and I believe it's a fantastically bad idea for X to attempt that strategy for many reasons; to keep it simple, amateurs who create music are heavily emotionally invested in their music and can be incredibly unrealistic about their abilities and willing to pay money to fund their hopes, however far fetched they may be; folks churning out social media messages attempting to influencers have a mindset that people should pay them and give them free things; they'll never embrace having to pay when every other media vehicle pays them).  There'd have to be some way to have an incredibly motivated audience of music seekers not just looking for music from unsigned artists and not just looking, but eager to pay money for it. But I don't really any sign of that demand being sizable and very lucrative for creators /independent artists merely putting their music on the service without ongoing, serious promotion. In 2021, BandCamp had publicly stated they make 80% of their revenue from music sales and 20% from artist services. My guess is that the new owners will focus on growing that 20 percent. 

For record companies, that historically meant live shows and appearances for artists and the company's people doing advertising, publicity and promotion, working with radio program directors, deejays, the media, etc.  Today, it still means that PLUS getting artists on playlists, their music placed in videogames, etc. And it's been said, but it's true that music industry today is very focused on image, so it's always been tough for artists past 30 to build an audience. Popular music (not jazz, cinematic or gaming music) has always been very youth-oriented. Of course, some folks might think of geriatric multimillionaire rockers with household names, but those folks all built their legacies as young artists; the public doesn't have a lot  of interest in 40 something or older new faces in the popular music world, even if you're the dad version of Jacob Collier. 

So considering all of that, what does a middle-aged person who puts their original music on BandCamp take in during a month? I've thought of putting stuff up there, but not with any hopes of "making it," I had my chance at the big time when I was young and passed on it, and of course, it struck me by my 30s there weren't going to be any second chances. But I only thought of BandCamp as a means of distributing my music to my little group of friends and folks who've come to appreciate my musical output along the way.  But I'm curious if anyone here is making anything off of Bandcamp beyond a few hundred bucks a year, at best? My guess is no, but it'd be great to learn that's not the case. 

EDIT: I found a subreddit answered my question and confirmed my suspicions: 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

On 10/1/2023 at 11:37 AM, JoeGBradford said:

Hope they keep the monthly  Bandcamp Fridays where the artist gets the full price of their product

The next one is this Friday.  I don't think they changed anything at all after Epic bought them so I hope this current shuffling doesn't change much either.

@PavlovsCat The Bandcamp Fridays are popular with indie musicians and someone I believe we both know pretty well seems to use Bandcamp extensively:  https://sonicelements.bandcamp.com/ (though I have the CDs - yes I still buy CDs - of New World and Static, I also have purchased them through Bandcamp and on Bandcamp Fridays of days gone by since Dave tends to remind people about Bandcamp Fridays especially when he has a current release he's promoting).

[telecode 101]

I bought the last Ry Cooder Taj Mahal release on BC. I figured maybe the money

all goes to the artists.

[PavlovsCat]

56 minutes ago, Peter - IK Multimedia said:

The next one is this Friday.  I don't think they changed anything at all after Epic bought them so I hope this current shuffling doesn't change much either.

@PavlovsCat The Bandcamp Fridays are popular with indie musicians and someone I believe we both know pretty well seems to use Bandcamp extensively:  https://sonicelements.bandcamp.com/ (though I have the CDs - yes I still buy CDs - of New World and Static, I also have purchased them through Bandcamp and on Bandcamp Fridays of days gone by since Dave tends to remind people about Bandcamp Fridays especially when he has a current release he's promoting).

Thanks for the post, @Peter - IK Multimedia.  I do think BandCamp has been a good place for musicians. Their revenue split is pretty generous.  I didn't mean to be a Debbie Downer, I just meant to express that I think the vast majority of creators there won't see success and there's no easy solution for that.

I didn't realize that Dave has used it so extensively. I need to spend more time there. Is that largely where Dave has cultivated and grown his fan base online (of course,  in addition to touring/live shows)?

Edited October 2, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[telecode 101]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

Thanks for the post, @Peter - IK Multimedia.  I do think BandCamp has been a good place for musicians. Their revenue split is pretty generous.  I didn't mean to be a Debbie Downer, I just meant to express that I think the vast majority of creators there won't see success and there's no easy solution for that.

I didn't realize that Dave has used it so extensively. I need to spend more time there. Is that largely where Dave has cultivated and grown his fan base online (of course,  in addition to touring/live shows)?

Last I heard. It would take you a year listening 24/7 to catch up with all the music being released in one day on Spotify. There is no way you could figure out what artists you would want to listen to without a big label and big marketing campaign.

[Brian Walton]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

 I just meant to express that I think the vast majority of creators there won't see success and there's no easy solution for that.

 

I am under the impression this is the case for every avenue/platform out there.

[PavlovsCat]

2 minutes ago, telecode 101 said:

Last I heard. It would take you a year listening 24/7 to catch up with all the music being released in one day on Spotify. There is no way you could figure out what artists you would want to listen to without a big label and big marketing campaign.

Yep. that is the challenge beyond the challenge of making really good music people want to listen to. It's a lot like having a website. There was a time in the early days of the web where having a website was a big deal. MySpace was awesome for its time, IMO. But now there's so much content out there it's incredibly difficult for someone without a team and big budget behind them to find the RIGHT audience. 

Peter brought up Dave Kerzner -- who I'm guessing some people here are familiar with (he founded Sonic Reality and had played keyboards with Kevin Gilbert -- a singer/songwriter/musician I was very fond of -- back in the 90s). Dave has done a lot of touring (live shows) and is active engaging his fans in social media. So, he follows the indie long-time model of combining traditional live shows and online presence. I think, unless you have a huge social media presence -- such as being a popular influencer -- that's the route that still works best for most indie artists. If you haven't built an audience using either live shows or online, and just put your music up on a service like BandCamp, they will not come (taking that from the often-used Field of Dreams paraphrase, "if you build it they will come"). It's simply too challenging for the right audience to find the right music with so much content out there. That's when you either need a lot of luck (rare) or, more likely, a lot of money and a publicity machine behind you. Most musicians putting up their music on services like BandCamp don't have those resources. I think there are ways of doing it better than the current solutions, especially with using AI to match those who want music around their interests, but the problem is always going to be that those recommendations are going to be impacted by financial concerns. That is, the platforms are going to promote those who pay and I doubt that will ever change. It would have to be a nonprofit that is completely ethics driven by art over commerce for indie artists to get the same treatment as artists with a big budget behind them.