Beginner CbB and MIDI-user trying to get SSD5 sampler to play thru a TD-17 and failing.

[Twub]

 

 

Ok, so the latency that is caused by these multiple tracks separating my kit components hopefully is directly related to the number of tracks involved?

If that's the case, I could combine, say the three toms as one track, cymbals in another and lessen my latency?

Find a workable happy medium that way?

Please?

Toms for instance in my experience, unless they are very small or very huge, respond nicely to essentially the same EQ settings, with cuts in the low mids, and maybe a boost around 4k for some attack. I'd probably be quite satisfied to treat them all as one, if that could make a difference.

Would that help? I'm scared again. I can't play with latency, and I'm not about to try to just "get used" to an acceptable amount.

The only way this is going to work is: OK, technically there's latency, but I can't detect it. 

I just know this machine of mine is going to return a signal 14 minutes later, once I get these tracks all set up. 

 

 

[HOOK]

With a 22ms round trip I can't imagine you're not experiencing that as latency already.

This is typically what I prefer, but I can usually live with anything less than a 10ms round trip with drums.  In my experience, adding tracks so that the VST can route drum sound to different channels won't add to a latency problem.

 

[HOOK]

And yes, you can combine your toms to one channel if you wish.    Here's a snapshot of my drum break out.  I send all toms to one stereo channel.  All overheads to the same stereo channel.  And one for rooms.

 

[Twub]

Nevertheless, none detected so far. 

I'm setting these routing track now, and granted, I've only added the snare, the three toms and the kick.

(Because I don't know how to use SSD5 yet and I cant find the cymbals in the SSD5 mix screen)

But no delay. I went back and added EQ to each, then reverb, to see if that would up the latency. 

No latency yet. 

A couple things though: What does that crazy high sampling rate of yours (compared to my 44100) buy you?

and I can't get CbB to save my EQ presets, either - in a bank, not in a bank, nothing. 

That's a pretty big deal and a show-stopper if I can't recall EQs for these instruments. 

[mettelus]

3 hours ago, Twub said:

But anyway, soon after I started putting out these drum tracks, the old problems surfaced again - how to mix the kit from two outputs. 

This is the MIDI versus audio again, but you also mentioned tracking versus mixing, so will hit those quick.

For tracking (recording MIDI from the TD-17), you want buffers lower (may need to shut FX off globally with the "E" hotkey) so that latency is minimal. This is so you can capture your MIDI performance with kit pieces on separate tracks (preferred).

For mixing (post production), you are now working with editing MIDI performance in Cakewalk, and tailoring the audio from SSD5 to fill the stage appropriately. During this part, you will want buffers higher (you will get latency and should not be tracking/recording during this stage) and be focused on the mix. If you do need to track again during this, the global FX bypass can be helpful, but mixing is more the relaxing, drinking coffee and focusing on post production part.

Keep your tracking a post-production stages separate and realize that the buffer size varies between them as well.

[Twub]

Yes, I see.  I'll certainly take note of "FX contributing to latency" and try to adjust accordingly when tracking. 

Like I said though, so far I don't seem to have any at this early stage of separating these instruments to tracks. 

When I said "problems with mixing the kit from two outputs, I probably should have said "EQing the kit from two outputs. " That's what I meant anyway. The same issues surfaced in this new studio environment that I had been seeing for years onstage. You just cant hope to EQ a kit that's only on one channel.

[mettelus]

1 hour ago, Twub said:

Yes, I see.  I'll certainly take note of "FX contributing to latency" and try to adjust accordingly when tracking. 

Like I said though, so far I don't seem to have any at this early stage of separating these instruments to tracks. 

When I said "problems with mixing the kit from two outputs, I probably should have said "EQing the kit from two outputs. " That's what I meant anyway. The same issues surfaced in this new studio environment that I had been seeing for years onstage. You just cant hope to EQ a kit that's only on one channel.

I am not familiar with SSD5 specifically, but most of that (if not all) can be done from inside the VSTi. Each kit piece should have its own EQ, pan, fader, etc., as well as overhead and room channels, and often their own built-in FX racks. The audio outputs of many VSTis also include multiple outputs (almost like their own mini-DAW) allowing you to record the audio to separate tracks or mixing entirely within the VSTi depending on your preference. When learning that aspect, you could focus on just learning SSD5 and use MIDI samples that either come with SSD5 or from the loop library (drag/drop into MIDI tracks) to learn the routing and functionality of SSD5 itself.

[Twub]

 

This is starting to get the better of me. 

Anyway, I realized I hadn't mapped my kit with SSD5. 

So I think I've got that accomplished. 

I think I saved it properly. 

I want to make a customized kit from the (very) limited instrument options in this free version. 

That's doesnt bother me, though, that limitation. What's there sounds as good or better than my Roland sounds. I'm confident I can make them sound better yet, but...

I must be unique among all persons, in that I seem to be the only one in the world who wants to use a virtual kit, but has never seen any of this stuff before. 

Every tutorial on the internet (for SSD5) seems to assume that the viewer has been working with virtual drum software for years, and this particular one is just another variation of an age old theme. 

Not a single one shows it for a newcomer who's never laid eyes on anything like this. 

And acronyms out the wazoo. The one dude used four acronyms in a seven word sentence. I replayed and counted.

All of it is for established pros who just might want something different. 

In SSD5 you choose a kit. You load it.  First thing I want to do at this point is name it and save it so I can change it and not overwrite anything.  That's not even shown anywhere in any video, and it's not obvious or intuitive.

Click on instrument names and drag them onto the kit. Ok.

Does that overwrite what was there already? What was there already?

And why are there columns of slots on either side of the kit that one can pull instruments into?

Do those instruments stack on top of stuff on the kit and play at the same time? How are they assigned?

What do I do with the stuff I drag into those slots? Who knows?

In these vids, I see it done like lightning, but am not finding out why.

Those vids are just like the following example. 

"You unlock the door when you get closer to it. Get in, start it up, put it in gear and go. Hmm, it's a five-speed, so you'll have to use the clutch for reverse. Shift around 1100, and try not to let it hit 5-grand at any point. Oh, and put your belt on, sorry.  How's your gas by the way? Get that junk off the windshield. Wipers on the left of the column.  Squirt button's on the end. Go ahead and put 'em on full bore, not intermittent. High beam's on the floor, just like the old days..."

Think of the unsaid, unstated intermediate steps in those statements that we all would process without thought while using some vehicle that was "just like a car" but wasn't a car. Some goofy new thing that you'd never seen before.  There's a ton unsaid there. A ton. Volumes. 

 Those instructions would work for us, though. No special concerns, right?

Just like a car, they say?  You'd give it a go.

And given what you know already, you'd be rolling almost immediately despite the unfamiliar feel and appearance of the vehicle. 

Give those same instructions (and nothing BUT those instructions) to William Shakespeare as he stands there blinking at this device and see how it goes. He'd be twenty minutes just to figure out this was something one was supposed to get inside of. And after a day or so of examining it, he just might end up inside it. He won't be worrying about his revs any time soon. 

You guys that have been doing this forever all know this software didn't exist back in the '80s, but by the time it came along you already had a knowledge base to that allowed you to see where it all fit, and a decent idea of how to implement it. 

One thing is for sure; you skilled fellows can never again see something like SSD5 thru the eyes of a raw newbie, and see how weird it is. 

So that's how my fact-finding has been going. 

You wanna make a fortune?

Write a book that takes Shakespeare all the way to a single, simple, completed virtual kit that can be used in CbB. 

 

[HOOK]

6 hours ago, Twub said:

I must be unique among all persons, in that I seem to be the only one in the world who wants to use a virtual kit, but has never seen any of this stuff before. 

Every tutorial on the internet (for SSD5) seems to assume that the viewer has been working with virtual drum software for years, and this particular one is just another variation of an age old theme. 

Not a single one shows it for a newcomer who's never laid eyes on anything like this. 

FYI - I've used Cakewalk since 94.  All audio, all the time with countless live drum kits and full rock bands.  I never even touched a VST instrument until spring of 2022 because the bands I worked with didn't have any use for them.  I learned from YouTube how to make SSD5 work.  Granted, a lot of the videos are a little vague and not SSD5 specific.  But all the secrets are there to be had.  I asked a couple questions here as well.

I felt like a monkey trying to understand magic.  And then....it worked.

The slots on the side of the SSD5 screen where you build a kit - those are to stack sounds on top of the sounds you already have assigned to the drum pads.  Add another snare (in any one of those slots) and it'll trigger simultaneously every time you hit your snare.  Generally speaking, add a kick and SSD5 knows to trigger that additional sound along with the one you drop on top of the kick. Add toms, and they'll trigger with toms.  Watch this video:

 

[HOOK]

13 hours ago, Twub said:

Nevertheless, none detected so far. 

I'm setting these routing track now, and granted, I've only added the snare, the three toms and the kick.

(Because I don't know how to use SSD5 yet and I cant find the cymbals in the SSD5 mix screen)

But no delay. I went back and added EQ to each, then reverb, to see if that would up the latency. 

No latency yet. 

A couple things though: What does that crazy high sampling rate of yours (compared to my 44100) buy you?

and I can't get CbB to save my EQ presets, either - in a bank, not in a bank, nothing. 

That's a pretty big deal and a show-stopper if I can't recall EQs for these instruments. 

96khz sampling rate isn't crazy high.  But I use it because my system sounds best at that sampling rate.  It also has the added effect of helping to keep latency very low.  I've worked at 96khz since about 2005 or so.

I wouldn't concern myself with it if you're not having issues with the latency you're experiencing.

I also wouldn't get too concerned with saving EQ presets.  You're building a project and saving it, right?  You 'll save that as a template eventually.  That project, and subsequent template, will save all those settings in it.  You can always tackle saving presets later if you want.

What would really help you is a good team-viewer session with someone who can set this up while you watch.  Honestly, it seems like you're  about 7 mouse clicks away from having this whole thing figured out....lol

[HOOK]

BTW...I still feel like a monkey watching magic when I sit down and all this stuff just works when I open my template.  It's really pretty ridiculous.  If I had these tools when I was 15 instead of bouncing sounds back and forth between two cassette boom boxes and laying in new tracks via the built-in mics....I'd be so famous that 20 people would know who I am instead of 10.

?

[mettelus]

Being new, you did jump into the deeper end of the pool, so give yourself a LOT of credit for the tenacity to stick with it (pun intended). Even separately, controllers, MIDI, and virtual instruments can be daunting and you jumped in with all three.

Sometimes it is best to focus on a small task and learn that, say just sitting with SSD5 and tailoring out your default kit, working with a drum map, or working with the outputs of SSD5. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.

Acronyms and keywords are going to come at you like drinking from a fire hose, you will not be able to escape that. Something that may be helpful there is to ask a question on what you want to do with a given task, and folks will very often come back with ideas and the keywords you need so you can delve further. Never hesitate to ask; this forum has some exceptional folks who go the extra mile to help others.

Another trick you should be aware of... to find things that may have already been posted in detail (often there are), a Google search that starts with "site:discuss.cakewalk.com" (this forum) or "site:forum.cakewalk.com" (the old forum) and then the keywords you are looking for will give you better results and zero in on these forum(s) specifically. Such as "site:discuss.cakewalk.com How to make a drum map"

[Twub]

7 hours ago, HOOK said:

What would really help you is a good team-viewer session with someone who can set this up while you watch.  Honestly, it seems like you're  about 7 mouse clicks away from having this whole thing figured out....lol

Sign me up. 

Honestly for what I want to do with SSD5 a one afternoon seminar class would get me rolling. Seven mouse clicks away?

Kliks maybe. The ones U.S. infantry units refer to. 

@Lord Tim asked me what I was using for the EQ on the tracks that I couldn't seem to save. It's accessed on the track itself on the FX selector. It's called Sonitus EQ. I like it because of the number of bands in it, and the focus freqs can be changed.

The Quadcurve EQ thingy in the ProChannel only allows for 4 bands. Let me guess; it can be expanded to 144 and has near-infinite customization, right?

Sonitus EQ says I have the options to save the settings and name it, but it lies, and I hear laughter from deep inside my PC tower when I attempt these things. Come to think of it, I have been hearing lots of chattering here and there these last few days and nights. It started in my head, about 48 hours ago. I'm sure of that. But now I hear voices from the tower as well.

Stepping away from this is not an option! I will return to my band's shared folders with a beautifully EQd drum track for "Detroit Rock City" and "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Manic Depression" and all the rest of them or perish in the attempt!  <<falls off chair, shrieking and thrashing about>>

I am stepping away tonight, because tonight is Band night and I get to go make noise thru a big PA until the wee hours.

-------------------------------

Now I DID see that the All Synth Audio Outputs template that I saved kept those EQ settings that I assigned the tracks, in place. And that's fine. I'll let it go at that.

@HOOK said that would be the case.

And that video? I've seen it 70 times. It seems to start halfway thru a lecture, and be Part II of a Part I, but of course it isn't.

One thing I'll just toss out here is... when people respond to us for auditions, I'm usually the one that vets them. I always insist that they contact me via phone, after we get their initial response from whatever media source they hit us on.  Twenty seconds of in-person conversation can equal days of text and Emails from an "information-exchange" standpoint. 

Any of you fellows willing to try that?

e.g. I open my little freeware SSD5 and the other Party, already in possession of SSD5 does the same. Then that other Party gets blasted out of their seat with three-hundred questions uttered in one manic sentence, tells me to shut up and 20 minutes later I know stuff, can be confidant I'm not missing a ton of critical steps and key issues, can sleep again, eat again, etc...

What's in it for you? Less noise from me on this thread.

Give it a think. 

 

[HOOK]

2 hours ago, Twub said:

And that video? I've seen it 70 times. It seems to start halfway thru a lecture, and be Part II of a Part I, but of course it isn't.

You asked a specific question about the info provided in that video that you say you've watched 70 times.

[Twub]

No takers on a SSD5 set-up phone call?

[HOOK]

Let see exactly where you are...I've lost track.

Do you have your kit talking to Slate?

Do all of your pads trigger the correlating Slate sample - kick for kick, snare for snare, etc?

Do you have Slate sending kick to a kick channel, snare to a snare channel, etc. on the Cakewalk mixer?

Edited September 7, 2023 by HOOK

[Twub]

3 hours ago, HOOK said:

Let see exactly where you are...I've lost track.

Do you have your kit talking to Slate?

Do all of your pads trigger the correlating Slate sample - kick for kick, snare for snare, etc?

Do you have Slate sending kick to a kick channel, snare to a snare channel, etc. on the Cakewalk mixer?

Yes. I've got SSD5 producing sounds and I've been able to get CbB to put up 48 Mono Audio tracks and the single MIDI track. 

@Lord Tim had mentioned earlier that ideally I should be using the mono tracks, but for initial simplicity he wanted me  to do the Stereo track format. And I did do so, but since then I wanted to check out the mono track option. 

I'm able to assign the audio tracks to the appropriate SSD5 microphone groupings, (mostly, not everything) and that all seems to be working (mostly, not everything)

I'm closer to walking than crawling at this point, I feel.

The roadblocks for me now are (primarily) in SSD5 itself, and I think they're exacerbated by some lingering uncertainties of some elements of CbB and like I said, I could gain miles of ground if someone who knew SSD5 well would consent to the both of us each opening SSD5 on either end of a phone-connection and showing me around a bit, answer a few critical questions and generally setting me straight.

I think it unlikely that anyone willing to do this has only the "Sampler" version of SSD5 as I do, but I'll bet that there's enough similarities to suffice.

And again, voice communication can replace days of texting. 

[HOOK]

If you've mapped to SSD5, you're getting sounds, and you've routed those sounds to individual tracks - I'm having a hard time understanding why you're not recording yet.

Why you'd route out of SSD5 with 48 mono channels is completely lost on me.  I route out of SSD5 with 7 channels total.  I can't imagine a scenario where you'd need more than that to do the things you want to do.  And certainly not more channels than you have actual pads.

I have a distinct feeling that you've been conflating some terminology and have a misunderstanding some of the tips you've been given.  Not hard to do if this is all new to you.  The best way to show you this stuff would be a phone call in conjunction with a Team Viewer session.

If you want to do that, message me and we can work it out.  I should be free this afternoon...or I should be able to block out a window for you this coming weekend.

 

 

[Twub]

33 minutes ago, HOOK said:

message me and we can work it out. 

Message sent.

[Twub]

From @Lord Tim:

"Start up a new project, then drag over SSD5 into the track header area like you did before, but this time in the dialogue that pops up, put a tick in All Synth Audio Outputs:  Stereo

This will make 1 MIDI track which you'll use to record your playing, and then you'll get a bunch of audio tracks created.

What you'll need to do then is load your preferred SSD5 kit, then name your tracks that were created just to make life easier for yourself, then look at the input for each of those tracks. It'll say Output#1, Output#2, etc.

What you need to do then is go into SSD5's Mix page and look for each drum and set the OUT for each thing to correspond to the tracks that were created:

So you'll see by default here that everything is "out 1 st" which means everything will be coming in on that first audio track that has Output#1 as the input. So you'd change all of the kicks to "out 1 st" in SSD5's mixer, then all of the snares to "out 2 st" so they come in on the second track that has the input set to Output#2 and keep going until you've mapped the kit to each track.

Ideally you'd be using mono tracks for each but it doesn't overly matter too much and that's a bit more work to set up initially."

 

 

When I did as he asked, I saw why @Lord Timsaid the selection of Stereo Tracks was less complicated to set up. 

I get one MIDI and 24 Audio tracks. selecting MONO gives me 48 Audio. 

Perhaps you are inputting to SSD5 thru a keyboard or and external drum machine with 8 pads or whatever they have and you utilize a step-sequencer to produce your drum tracks?

I'm not interested in programming 5 and 6 stroke rolls and paradiddles and flams. I play them.

My Roland has something on the order of 16-19 separate triggering surfaces, depending on how one counts the hi-hat inputs. 

Sure, I don't really need to separately put ....say the TOM RIMS on tracks, or even the CRASH BOWs from their edges, but for sure I need to separate the SNARE TOP from the SNARE RIM, and the RIDE EDGE from the RIDE BOW or BELL. 

I just followed the instructions I'd been given. I can always delete whichever unused tracks that are left over, right?

And anyway, my primary issue is the confusion I'm having with SSD5 itself, otherwise I WOULD be recording by now. Like I said, I'm pretty close to rolling.