Introducing Cakewalk Next and our new brand identity

[MarianoGF]

9 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

No you don't if you only purchase their intellectual property, which Bandlab did. They didn't purchase the company at all, just the code to make the program. They also hired the programmers that Gibson fired. But this is 100% a new unrelated company otherwise.

I understand your point, that's what they said in early 2018. But if you acquire only de code, I don't think you can use the names "Cakewalk" or "Sonar", because that's not part of the intellectual properties. They are brands. But ofcourse I'm not sure, are all doubts I have.

[michaelhanson]

It seems like some folks are getting hammered by others for having a little skepticism.  I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and certainly entitled to decide what they find attractive  in which to spend their money on.  

I'm waiting to see the details.  I don't mind options, especially if it offers some a subscription plan and others the opportunity to buy outright.  I have been around long enough (2002) to  watch Cakewalk/ Sonar go through many business models long before Gibson ever got involved.   I used to jump in head over heals to which ever direction Cakewalk went.  I'm a little more reserved these days, having gone through the last road bump with Gibson.  As I had mentioned earlier in this thread, that speed bump caused me to rethink what I was buying and whom I was buying from, to support my needs long term.  I no longer rely on Cakewalk or the plugins inherent with in Cakewalk, but have spread out my reliance to many 3rd party vendors.  Kind of like not putting all of your eggs in one basket, should one vendor fail to stay in business.  

That being said, I was about to put $150 down to upgrade my Studio One V3 Pro to V6 Pro.  I am now waiting to see where Cakewalk goes to make my final decision.  Both programs are similar in the way they layout and function.  I have always preferred Cakewalk, especially because I like the work space and layout of ProChannel.  In many ways Studio One is more advanced than Cakewalk however.  I basically only use the ProChannel plug ins and none of the other Cakewalk plug ins, so they really aren't a huge factor.    

My decision is going to come down to which platform is going to be my primary and which is going to be my secondary.  Again, I am going to reserve judgement, until the cards are on the table.  

[dubdisciple]

10 hours ago, Moskus said:

As stated by others, pricing is everything!

I would recommend going the route of Davinci Resolve. It has a "free version" which works great and has like 99% of the features, but if you really want the advanced (and cool!) stuff you need the "Studio" version. Which is a one time payment, no subscription.

And please keep your price reasonable.

As an owner of paid version of resolve, i can say the reason they can do that is because (like Digidesign in the early days of pro tools) is a hardware company selling software as gateway to high margin hardware. You can tell software is more of a hook Than main income source. I do think it's a q better deal than most, but possible because of unique position 

[kc23]

They keep throwing these veiled confirmations that, indeed, what is coming is a subscription model. For which a lot of people here keep saying is not what is desired. Comparing a daw with a car? To justify a subscription with the same arguments as corporations wave when dismissing your right to really own what you pay for? Just because people have lost perspective on the entitlement of a business over the reality of what you allow them to do, does not mean it´s correct, moral or ethic behavior.

Remember, Bandlab is not a little independent company, run by three or four guys in a garage. Quite the opposite.

So no, to whoever said "100% of people here agree", it´s just not true. And also no, "rent to own" or "perpetual license" is not "buy a 12 month upgrade plan", which actually is a subscription in disguise.

So far, the only "new" thing offered seems to be this vector based gui. But for the rest, it´s even been said it´s going to be the same, all the way to the base code, which has been used countless times as excuse for not implementing very long requested features that are granted in other daws. Even things that were introduced by cw, and then left for dead. Remember multitouch support? Not a single change nor development since it was introduced in the win8 days. Not one. As someone asked, what then is the new value proposed for the asking price, whatever it will be? So far, not much in my opinion. And you want people to pay periodically?

Also, I see the general attitude here is the same that made the old cakewalk forum famous for: "If you question this daw in any way, shape or form, you will be berated, shamed, belittled and thrown out of here... how dare you?!?" I have run in to this a couple of times, and there´s not much to argue against that narrow mindset.

It seems times ahead are certainly not rainbows and sunny days.

BTW, to those that payed for lifetime updates (even older cw versions, from sonar x2) and still keep proof of purchase, it can be used for crossgrade discounts for Cubase and for StudioOne. So, even other software companies are still willing to, in a way, honor that. Just so you know, to keep things in perspective.

Edited June 7, 2023 by kc23
typo

[MarianoGF]

2 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

This isn't SONAR (all caps)

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Was it the right choice to call this new version of their application Sonar? That's debatable.

Good points. I think theese are the keys to debate. But, ok, only a lawyer could clear them.

[User 905133]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyV said:

@User 905133   where did you find this quote. I'm looking for clarification regarding the removal of the Activation time out?

https://www.cakewalk.com/sonar

Scroll down to the FAQs > Will Cakewalk by BandLab be discontinued?

Quote

Yes, eventually. We will continue providing community support and maintenance for Cakewalk by BandLab until Cakewalk Sonar becomes publicly available. At some point after the release of Sonar, Cakewalk by BandLab will no longer be supported. Note that existing Cakewalk by BandLab users will be able to continue using the software after the release of Cakewalk Sonar. In the meantime, Cakewalk by BandLab continues to be available here.

It doesn't say anything about the removal of the activation time out.  So far I have only seen discussion (questions/speculation) by users.  But honestly, there's too much Chicken Little stuff going on for me to keep track of what users are saying.  But if I find a definitive statement about the activation feature, I will let you know.

[A Tolerable Quietude]

2 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

The have tech support now, either by submitting a ticket HERE or mailing support@cakewalk.com but they obviously need to keep paying these people moving forward...

Not only that, but in my limited experience, Cakewalk's tech support is really good!  I had a ticket open with them recently, and a ticket open with Native Instruments for a paid product.  Cakewalk's tech support was prompt, courteous, and helpful.  Native Instrument's has been extremely slow, inexpert, and ultimately incorrect.  It's astonishing to me that Cakewalk's support team for a free product is leagues better than NI's for a paid one.

[JnTuneTech]

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

My car is already subscription (OnStar). If I want remote access to it or to check stats, I have to pay $15 a month
I got a few years of free access when I bought it. Actual appliances have already gone this way. 
The classic 90's software model of paying for a specific version has changed many years ago whether we like it or not.

Buying, owning, many, many "things" in our modern world has changed, - a lot for some of us old enough (yes, I know, grumpy gramps talking...) - and that affects everyone, in different ways, to be sure. I've learned so far that I can only make as good a choice as I am capable of, and if possible, try and help to make it work out. When Gibson dumped on us with Sonar, we all had to deal with that. Now, somehow we are still here with a progression of Cakewalk software, and I for one plan to try and continue to make the best of it.

-Of course - open forums encourage all opinions and expressions, but I have to wonder sometimes if people realize the logical loops created by complaining without offering any positive solutions. -Ah well, perhaps it all helps in the end. I just hope the devs can sort through all this hubub and continue to keep this Cakewalk thing going, and getting usable feedback from members here. It has previously been a mostly positive experience from my vantage point, so far.

     Yes - software, and related product "ownership" has changed a lot in the past 30 years & counting. But creators and companies that stay alive generally keep working because we support them with our dollars - with varying shades of the effects of the balance of power (wealth), of course. -I'm just happy Cakewalk wasn't dumped - again.

On the grumpy side:

I too wish I could use an iPhone 3 with the current Apple software and a phone provider of my choice. -Instead now of having a phone that could plug into any jack, in almost any major country, I have to pay again (or subscribe) to get an entirely new one, or eventually they cease to work for the primary purpose I bought it for.

Adobe still owns all my and my client's PDF software rights, and could shut them off at any time.

Avid MC used to be the solid, reliable, backwards-compatible media editing & storage option. -See the previously mentioned company about that now.

(Isn't there already a book out there called "Future Shock"? - I really should read it)

Salespeople can never be trusted to tell us the truth. -Oh, wait, -are you working sales for that new startup now... Oops, sorry about that.

I can open my client's original Apple Mac Word .doc file on almost any device and still figure it out. The original licensed Word for Mac will not work on any modern computer normally.

       -And this could go on & on...

We all wish everything could stay the same, unless of course we don't like it. -Pick your battles, when you can, I am told.  -Seems wise to me.  -Well, at least until AI starts turning off the heated seats and driving me where I don't want to go, anyway.  I wonder, -will AI let us unsubscribe even? Be happy when you have a choice.  I think Cakewalk here seems to be continuing in that general direction, and that works for me. Today.

Edited June 7, 2023 by JnTuneTech
Sppp...pelling!

[michaelhanson]

2 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Not directed to anyone in this thread in general, but nobody here is crapping on anyone for asking questions - it's obvious stuff is still being worked out at Bandlab HQ that the Bakers can't talk about yet, so it's fair to speculate. But man, there's a lot of "the sky is falling" and general FUD in these threads, threats to go to another paid product and learn a new system if they make this one a paid product (WTF?), or just general misunderstandings. At the end of the day, nobody here is your mum - if the terms going forward don't work for you, people all have the choice to go wherever they please. But throwing toys out of the cot because of speculation is ridiculous. Let's see what's actually happening first, this isn't even day 1 yet.

Well, its obvious were you are directing it and if you read all 12 pages the crap pile is there.  I'm not making threats, I moved to multiple DAW's long ago.  Money is not the objection, I make a very healthy living; value is my question, were do I want to put my investment for the best long term out come.  

The fact that the "Bakers", a term many of us old times coined a long time ago, role out a similar message each time they change the business model is growing a little old however.  They have always dipped their toe in the water before releasing pricing terms.  The last subscription model went exactly the same way.  I preferred the subscription back then, by the way.  It fit my budget better at that stage in my life.  

 

[limpet]

I started a few years ago with Reaper, used it for a while, felt a bit guilty and decided to buy the personal use license which I think was about £40 at the time. Unfortunately I couldn`t really get to grips with it so I went looking for something a little simpler to use and came across Mixcraft. This was easier to use, and so more enjoyable and I paid about £70 for it. Every couple of years it was revamped into a new release which existing customers could get, if they so desired, at around a 50% discount, so all good there.

Unfortunately, Mixcraft started to get a bit crashy and I very nearly lost a lot of projects so I had a look around and came across Cakewalk. I tried it out and I have to admit when I opened it up it was pretty intimidating, but after a few hours playing with it, it was humming along nicely and I have used it ever since with no issues. Got to love that pro channel.

Obviously this free to use situation was too good to be true and could never realistically last, so this news is not unexpected.

The only question to be answered really is about the pricing.

For me, not a heavy user, if it`s a case of a one off payment in the region of £80 to £100 with new versions every couple of years at a 40 % discount to existing users, then I could go for that. If on the other hand we`re talking more like £200 or God forbid a subscription then that would be too rich for me and I would be compelled to give Reaper another try, or see if Mixcraft has become more stable, which would be no real hardship as I have already paid once so it wouldn`t  be to expensive to re-visit and upgrade a bit.

Time will tell of course, but I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.

 

[MarianoGF]

28 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Do you think they would be using the same graphics, names and even website for the last 5 years if they didn't have the rights? This would have ALL been part of the Intellectual Property.

No, I'm sure they have the rights (please). But I think that acquiring the brands Cakewalk and Sonar are more than to acquire just the intellectual property (the code).

[Rob Chang]

Can we please get Z3TA+ and Rapture back, or some other synth? One of the most glaring holes in CbBL currently is there's no quality synth included. TTS-1 is not what anyone would call a quality synthesizer due to how limited it is. I don't know why Z3TA+ and Rapture had to be taken away from CbBL in the first place. It's not like they're still being sold. 

I teach music production to a lot of hobbyists and I tell all my students to use Cakewalk because it's free, but when it comes to using synths in their tracks, TTS-1 is so primitive and meh that the students are just not impressed. Having them go find/download/install third-party synths adds more complication because often there are compatibility issues with those, including installation complications such as the VST not showing up in Cakewalk even if the directory is being scanned. Having a high quality included synth will make the DAW feel more complete and usable right out of the box. And these students will "graduate" to paid version of Sonar when it comes out, and if they are already familiar with an included synth they really like, it'll be a smoother transition. 

 

 

[chris.r]

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

My car is already subscription (OnStar). If I want remote access to it or to check stats, I have to pay $15 a month
I got a few years of free access when I bought it. Actual appliances have already gone this way.

My single question would be, can you still drive your car or keep using your appliance in case the maker decide to close? (not wishing you any of it)  

[marcL]

1 hour ago, JohnnyV said:

@User 905133   where did you find this quote. I'm looking for clarification regarding the removal of the Activation time out?

Nowadays it is common that nobody talks about activation! The user has to find it out after he has paid!

[garybuckels]

So when is all this gonna happen? A week, a month, 'next' year? (no pun intended)

[Noel Borthwick]

7 minutes ago, chris.r said:

My single question would be, can you still drive your car or keep using your appliance in case the maker decide to close? (not wishing you any of it)  

Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future.
Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. 

[GreenLight]

22 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

>>"Annual" means no expiry / no deactivation after one year,   just no further free updates after the year, right?

Exactly. We were one of the few companies offering this model even in the SONAR days. How it works is you either pay for 12 consecutive monthly subs OR you purchase a one year subscription upfront. In both scenarios the last months version is permanently unlocked for you and you own it.  This is essentially no different than buying an annual version of the software outright. Many people who dislike subscription are unaware that we always did this.

I think the model you mentioned is great.

But I think it's important to consider why many people misunderstood the message. I think it is/was due to semantics. "Annual" feels like a very ambiguous word for what it is, it implicitly implies an annual subscription payment. If you'd call it "including 12 months of updates", that's immediately a lot clearer even if it refers to the same thing.

I am also one of those who prefer single payments to subscriptions. (That's what I was taught as a kid, how to be an economical consumer: always keep all your recurring costs to a minimum.) For non or semi-professionals especially, there are several problems with music software subscriptions in addition to the ideological ones: what if you go on vacation? What if you're just not using your tool for 5 weeks? What if you get a divorce/dog/get severely sick and are unable to produce for 3 months? Who wants to pay for that time? There's a reason gyms love subscriptions... ?

Anyway, as a long time user I'm very excited by the further development of Cakewalk! ? And I would be really happy if the new Cakewalk Sonar implemented a competitively priced model of "single payment with 12 months of updates included- last version permanently unlocked". Even if it was called a "subscription"... ?

[Magic Russ]

8 minutes ago, GreenLight said:

I think the model you mentioned is great.

But I think it's important to consider why many people misunderstood the message. I think it is/was due to semantics. "Annual" feels like a very ambiguous word for what it is, it implicitly implies an annual subscription payment. If you'd call it "including 12 months of updates", that's immediately a lot clearer even if it refers to the same thing.

I think you may be giving many of the people who misunderstood the message a bit too much credit.

[Terry Kelley]

I'm staring at my Cakewalk for DOS floppy and thinking about how far we have come (users and the developers.) Given some of the issues with the past (such as how Cakewalk ended in 2018) there is no reason people can't express their doubt and concern and it IS justified even if those that made that happen are no longer involved. As one person said (paraphrasing) 'Engineers go about things often far different from marketing.' 

But considering how CbB and the developers themselves have treated us since 2018, I willing to give them a lot of leeway. And I'll bet they don't forget about us. Maybe we will be the ones that benefit from our willingness to try and help (even when I did ask extraordinarily stupid questions that caused them to burst out laughing.)

As long as I can use Cakewalk, I will continue to use it. Hopefully I can. With a little want included.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Terry Kelley

[marcL]

14 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future.
Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. 

We are very thankful for your grace! ? And as we depend on it, we hope it will still be true in the future!

Frankly, I would prefer some sort of real offline activation (like Reaper, Audiothing, United Plugins, ...). I guess you think this is paranoia, maybe you're right! But I don't like too many dependencies for my music.

Paying for Sonar again (even after lifetime upgrade) is no problem, I understand this, you did a great job on the bugfixes and updates and this has to be honored!