Guitar mix tone (eqing)

[steve trusty]

I tried posting in the other category but I feel most traffic on here comes to this forum instead. Hopefully someone can lend their ears and advice. 

I’ve been mixing/mastering my latest song. One of my biggest struggles these days is getting a solid guitar tone on my albums. When I get it sounding to my likes, I preview it on different systems - car, phone, Bluetooth/aux speakers. It ends up sounding very mid driven and boxy. While the tone isn’t too bad, it’s not... ever the sound I want. So I settle. 

Im reaching out today in hopes someone will listen to my track and tell me how to basically fix my sound to more of a modern rock/metal guitar sound. I’ve eq’d the “hisses” and useless frequencies,  but I end up with a very mid boxy sound. If I fix the boxy-ness it gets thin or too bright.. I’ve tried and tried eqing it out but for the life of me can’t pin point where to scoop or add. 

Heads up this isn’t the finished product. Merely a rough master. Esp the vocals. 

Also I say boxy but someone else may describe it differently 

I’m no beginner and I’ve been through many article/forums on how to fix this or that, just never translates to what I’m shooting for.

Hopefully you have google drive. Suppose if need be I can upload to YouTube with a link only.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OR6I4jKeCHgHXb72rH6hsIQsxDvwEBsd/view?usp=

 

Closest off top my head I’m looking to achieve the tone of is

“All That Remains”,

“Breaking Benjamin”

“Godsmack”

 not an exact copy of their tone obviously but that smoothness and easy listening tone. My opinion on my tone is it’s rigid on the ear. Especially at high volumes. It lacks warmth and sounds........OFF?

Edited June 20, 2019 by TryMyTones

[CJ Jacobson]

First, lets start with some baseline questions: What guitar are you using? What pick-ups? What amps are you using and What mics are you using?

To get a sound like “Breaking Benjamin”, you need to first start at the source. Ben Burnley uses 2 guitars mostly. Custom PRS Breaking Ben Hollow body Baritone (stock pickups with piezo) and ESP LTD EC-401B guitar.

The amps Ben uses is the Randall RM-50 with Tread plate for dirty distortion sounds and the Blackface Module for most of his clean sounds.

The pedals he uses are Boss OC-3 Super Octave pedal, DigiTech TimeBender Delay, DigiTech X Series Multi-Chorus, Boss DD-20, Dunlap Crybaby and he uses a boss tuner (I know the tuner doesn't matter), but its what i saw on his pedal board.

Ben uses Ernie Ball guitar strings (yes it makes a difference).

so try and get the sound you want right from he start, because if you do not, then you cannot come close to it in the mixing stage, as what sound you start with is the most important sound.

 

[steve trusty]

I appreciate that. That’s a bit more copying of their gear than I intend. Although I do play a Ltd ec-1000. I use amp sims for recording, assortment of pedals and digital pedals.

Just using those bands for a example cause their studio guitar mix overall is pretty similar to what I’m looking for. Each of them have  the same sort of “warmth” ( if that’s a good word) that the mix engineers are scooping, boosting, cutting or all the above, pertaining to EQ. Or even Multiband compression. 

Basically, amp sims sound great stand alone. Until it’s put in a mix, different story. Same with addictive drums, synths/pianos. Sound amazing until you throw other instruments in to share the frequencies. 

Ive fought eq for days on this song and can’t seem to find a happy medium. It’ll either sound full and boxy.. or thin and bright.. bring down some of the highs, it disappears in the mix.. turn up the low mids  it over takes the mix. 

 

[reginaldStjohn]

I took a quick listen on my laptop speakers, all I have in front of me right now, so I could be way off here.  However, what I have found useful is to compare, both using my ears and using an analyzer tool, my sounds with those I want to attain.  I have used Melda's MAnalyzer and Izotope Ozone EQ to compare an Isolated guitar track, or the beginning of a guitar intro, to my sound and compare the difference.  This helps me find the frequencies that I am missing or have too much of.  Most of the distorted guitars that I have analyzed in similar genres as you are mentioning are mostly a flat frequency response  between about 100Hz and 4-5KHz.

Just listening quickly to your guitar sound it isn't bad but it seems to lack some in the lower mids (200-800Hz) or have too much in the 1-2K area.  

Hopefully that is helpful.

Edited June 20, 2019 by reginaldStjohn

[razor7music]

I don't see if this was covered, but are you miking an amp for your source, or are you going directly into your interface and then just using an amp sim plug-in?

The reason I ask is that I was only miking my amp as a source until recently. I have a vintage Boogie amp that needs repair and I don't have the extra cash to have it fixed right now, so I started recording my guitars dry through a tube pre-amp, DI, and then using amp sims. What I found is that I can get a better tone if I use the amp sim plug-in's EQ (tone) adjustments rather than trying to adjust my EQ after the fact with another EQ plug-in. Don't ask me why, I can only speculate (maybe if the EQ isn't there in the amp sim output, you can't boost it after the fact)

Also, if you use more than one guitar, try your pickup selectors on a different setting than each other, and maybe change the phase on one of the guitars in CW on that track.

Just some tricks I'm using.

[mettelus]

I finally had a chance to listen to this on a real system (it does not collapse well to mono on a cell). With EQ specifically, mirror EQ (boosts with complimentary cuts) is often done statically (fire and forget) and in a linear fashion (not making use of the stereo field). The lick at 3:04 is an example where the guitar is 100% focused (no competition whatsoever), but carries the same box it had previously. After a lick has been heard a few times, compressing and lowering the volume will let it carry forward as new content is introduced, but again should not be static... as instruments regain focus they very much should dominate their time in the limelight (such as the 3:04 example). Dynamic compression on the output can be helpful to give the entire "eq box" initially created room to breathe, since you can set a dynamic compressor not to dig into things until the combined sum gets out of hand - taming the 200Hz, 1KHz, and 5KHz areas a smidge helped out. Moving "focus" snippets to other tracks, then copying/modifying the FX bin is another method (or duplicating a track and modifying one for "focused" and the other for "sunk in the mix") - automation is another great tool for moving things around dynamically (when two signals get more than 2dB apart, the louder starts to dominate).

From a stereo standpoint, you could also try the spectral generator from MStereoSpread, which would allow you to also get things out of each other's way (and sometimes simpler). That does collapse to mono (so would need some mirror EQ), but would give you a little more freedom not to over-EQ mix components (roughly the 2 minute mark in their teaser shows a similar example for a vocal). If you like that, bake it into a bounce before the trial expires, and Melda has a weekly 50% off sale of 4 FX each week (and all of them roughly twice per year), so it will rotate through at some point if you like what it does.

I personally wouldn't get caught up in a hardware upgrade loop for this... once in the box, you can do a lot with an audio signal.

[steve trusty]

Thanks everyone for the input. I haven’t had a chance to sit down and give these ideas a shot! Especially reginald & meeteus, you’ve raised several good points on possibly achieving what I was looking for. 

Will report back as soon as I’m able to get back to my studio and try some things. I appreciate everyone taking time to respond and/or listen! \m/ 

Also razor 7, interesting take on that as well. I actually have been using amp sims. Direct in my interface. Usually record 2 different guitars, esp on left, Gibson on right.. eq them differently and try to marry the 2 in stereo. 

The reference to the moment at 3:04 is an interesting one cause I actually use automation throughout the song a lot, but that part I backed off the volume on the guitar and there’s actually a clean with flanger faded left taking over the space of my left distortion guitar. Although it’s still slightly there, the flange was suppose to hint it’s way forward until the song kicks back in. You say it stays in the same box and your right. Although I did some panning and automation, it’s not very obvious apparently.. will work on that as well! 

Again, I will report back, just trying to get in front of my desk before I can give these things a shot! 

Also the breaking down to mono, I use ozone 7 to preview how it would sound in mono and usually comes out ok, but something else I will definitely look in to! 

Should be good to go for tonight. Thanks again everyone! 

\m/ 

Edited June 24, 2019 by TryMyTones

[mettelus]

FYI - It only took two cycles for MStereoSpread to show up on Melda's Eternal Madness (50% off 4 plugins each week).

One thing to always bear in mind is that there is no right or wrong for anything artistic, so always take things with a grain of salt and pick and choose things as they apply (or don't apply) to your situation.

Regarding collapsing to mono... cell phones speakers can be a brutal test bed for music, but a good reality check. They lack in both low and high frequency playback, and collapse things to mono. They do serve a purpose to check mid-range frequencies, crossover band (and slope) selections, mono compatability, and hear the song in a less-than-optimal enviornment. A lot of music is listened to on mobile devices these days, so I often use the cell phone speaker as a litmus test with the assumption that ear buds (and mp3 formats) will be the most common playback medium (and ear buds really aren't a massive improvement).

[Jim Roseberry]

I've brought this up in numerous posts recently.

 

If you compare playing thru a real guitar amp vs. plugin thru an AmpSim plugin, the real amp responds more smoothly to transients.

Craig Anderton has written about this in numerous articles.

Craig is the reason why current Les Paul Standard HP models have the dip-switch option to reduce these types of transients.

 

Using a compressor on the way in (to record) can help the AmpSim respond/sound more like a real amp.

 

I agree with CJ in that you've got to get your guitar sound "up front".

If you're doing much more than using a high-pass filter and maybe a subtle EQ boost/cut, the sound (up front) isn't right.

Same with live guitar tone; If the sound engineer is using radical EQ, he/she is doing more damage than good.

 

If you've got a nice studio channel, that can make a massive difference in the quality of result from an AmpSim plugin.

Something like the Neve Shelford channel (world-class DI/preamp, quality EQ, and versatile compressor) is ideal for use with an AmpSim plugin.

Of course, this type of channel-strip costs as much as a (real) quality guitar amp/cab.

The DI/preamp alone can make a very significant difference in tone.

ie: A  passive Fender P or J bass recorded thru a cheap DI sounds weak/anemic.

That same bass recorded thru a Neve DI/preamp sounds amazing.  The tone is just there... no struggle.

Used lightly, the compressor will help the AmpSim mimic the way a real amp responds (more smoothly) to transients.

Finally, the EQ section can do wonders to shape the guitar tone.

ie:  Dial up a Friedman BE-100 amp model (popular Marshall clone).  Set the Shelford's mid EQ to the 1.8k setting... and add a slight boost.

The resultant sound is a great "Mid pushed" Marshall tone.

 

I can't stress enough just how significant the difference from using quality DI/preamp.

Using a typical cheap DI makes it much more difficult to achieve great guitar/bass tone.

 

[DeeringAmps]

Damn Jim, my GAS is killin' me!
$3500; this bad boy better "walk on water"...

Thanks a lot!

T

[Jim Roseberry]

Only worth it... if you use it.   ?

Neve channels are (IMO) one of the best gear investments you can make...

But I'd only recommend to those who are into recording/mixing for the long-haul.

 

[steve trusty]

Some great info in this thread! I appreciate the help/advice. 

While Like to consider myself a serious solo artist, I don’t make serious solo artist money to afford 3500.00... at the moment.. As I quietly check my shoulder and add it to the wish list lol.. 

While looking into Neve, I also noticed Steinberg has partnered with Neve on there newer interface for 599.00.. 

Honestly for the time being I need to stick it out with my Tascam 2x2. It’s been a great budget interface. Planned to get the Roland octa rack mount interface I believe it’s called.. But would rather have usb 3.0 if I’m going to upgrade. 

Its true I need to work on my guitar signal coming in the interface. That could be playing a huge role in my tone. With all the editing possibilities to “fix” things I never really considered it. 

I do usually slightly compress/EQ the signal before the amp sim. Recently got the neural amp sim, been through a few of them. While it’s sounds great stand alone, it’s been a task to mix with. 

I seemed to have found a better tone with all you guys help. Mainly singled out a few things with Multi band eq, realized I had one of my buses muted. Opened a bit of space with slight reverb and panning. I also reconsidered the drums placement, compression and reverb tails. 

I noticed the issue why it wasn’t collapsing to mono very well. Seemed to have worked most the kinks out. Which basically boiled down to the guitars and cymbals. Was strange cause from my phone it sounded great. Laptop speakers are a different beast.  Bluetooth speaker - slightly distorted with max volume, no distortion turned down a notch. Bluetooth in the car sounds a bit bassy still.. and lined in in the car,  

The  search continues for my “go to guitar settings” 

I’ll never move on from this song if I don’t press forward! Plan to release a single a month once I release this one. So I’m trying to speed my workflow. 

Thanks again everyone. 

 

[metalchef]

Look bro it takes time and experience . NOT GEAR and GEAR REPLICATION. I have a brother who has played in a very popular metal band for 3 years and have played myself for over 26yrs and i can tell you it comes with knowledge,research,andtime period. I mean for christ sake Jimmy Paige recorded his most fampius guitar parts on a beat up Telecaster thru a very small supro amp and on Black Dog the mofo didnt ebven run it thru an amp he plugged straight into the board. There is a reason thre are professional mixing engineers its bcause they either go to school or have done so miuch OTJ raining they are OGs and some just have a gift but u can listen to whoever and buy and use whoevers gear you want the main #1 problem is you are not THEM no matter what u do it wont happen. I saw an Ozzy/Alice in Chains show in 94 when Dirt released and i watched Zakk mess around and pick up one of Jerrys G&Ls and play thru his rig and u know who he sounded just like ZAKK .

[hockeyjx]

Jim,

I have an AXE I/O, have you happened to try one? I'm wondering if you think something like that would be solid to help with transients.

[Craig Anderton]

On 7/2/2019 at 7:21 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

I've brought this up in numerous posts recently.

If you compare playing thru a real guitar amp vs. plugin thru an AmpSim plugin, the real amp responds more smoothly to transients. Craig Anderton has written about this in numerous articles.

Craig is the reason why current Les Paul Standard HP models have the dip-switch option to reduce these types of transients.

Here's one of those articles, it tells how to build the Transient Tamer inside a guitar cable. Most people look at the schematic and assume it can't really work, but look at the screen shots of the before and after

You won't hear any clipping or distortion, it just lets a digital device operate in a happier place, and tangentially, gives a better feel.

I also EQ before going into any amp sim with distortion. Amp sims have the capacity to reproduce sounds a physical cabinet cannot, so I keep the extreme highs and lows from getting into the sim.  As to post-sim EQ, I sometimes add a bit of a broad lift in the 3-4 kHz zone and scoop out the lower mids to give more articulation, but you have to be careful - a little bit goes a long way. Just a dB or two in either case will be enough.

FWIW I also wrote a book called How to Get the Best Sounds Out of Amp Sim Software. 

[Gswitz]

I have a family so I use an Amp Sim.

THU currently.

One of my favorite things to do is to fiddle with tones and then play a tone for a while and then fiddle some more.

I often re-amp anything recorded using an Amp Sim.

I use this re-amp box I soldered together from a kit...
https://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/products/l2a

It's pretty fun to put your guitar playing on a loop and then play with your pedals and amp until you get a sound you like. This means that when I have the house to myself, I can really focus on the amp and fx.

Now, I definitely prefer to play through the Amp and on most Friday and some Saturday nights I get to.

I think gear comes best dribbled into your life. It takes me a while to get used to new things. One or two new items a year is usually enough for me. I have tons of software I don't really use and some hardware.

One of my favorite purchases is my Rivera Rock Crusher which enables me to turn up my 60 Watt amp without rattling the nails out of the walls.

Amp Sims are huge repos of toys and you can really invest a lot of time to getting talented at using them.

I make myself my own bank of sounds and save sounds in it as I go. That way I can remember things I've tried before.

I also use an FCB1010 to control the amp sim so I have expression pedals and stomps to control those in the Amp Sim.

Craig is an incredible musician and teacher. I have purchased a number of his books and videos and learned a ton. I'm very grateful for all he has taught me. One of the things I use the most is his Pop Filter in the Anderton Collection > Vox Tools. To me the thing is magic. ? Thanks, @Craig Anderton

Regarding Neve... I spent a lot of time reading the manual for the Shelford Channel and even made videos about it...

I feel I learned a lot from how the Neve manual that helped me get ideas for how to use the gear I have.

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Gswitz

[RBH]

I've had luck splitting a signal from my amps effects loop and sending that direct to my DAW. I use S-gear convolver only for cab sims by bypassing the amps and effects. It gives me my tube pre-amp over drive and I sometime use just a little limiting on the front end to tame transients.  It's been working pretty well for mid to high gain distortion sound.  Just a home remedy I guess but It's been working ok.

Edited February 20, 2020 by RBH

[Tezza]

On 2/19/2020 at 6:34 AM, Craig Anderton said:

I also EQ before going into any amp sim with distortion. Amp sims have the capacity to reproduce sounds a physical cabinet cannot, so I keep the extreme highs and lows from getting into the sim.  As to post-sim EQ, I sometimes add a bit of a broad lift in the 3-4 kHz zone and scoop out the lower mids to give more articulation, but you have to be careful - a little bit goes a long way. Just a dB or two in either case will be enough.

This is what I do, but not with hardware, I just run a software eq and compressor before guitar rig, I've got a 32 band graphic that I use on the dry sound, get that sounding as best as possible, depending on the style, cut and boost, then a compressor, just a light one, with slow attack, you don't want to kill the bite or attack of the guitar.then it goes into guitar rig, really helps the tone, but I am looking for clean. I do the same for midi samples playing guitar sounds.

One thing I stumbled on was a guy on the internet that said if you want an electric guitar to sound like it's coming from a speaker, download the real world frequency response of that speaker and then set up a para eq with shelves to mimic it on the dry signal,  before it goes into the amp sim, for the reasons Craig mentioned.

I haven't yet tried this myself yet, so can't vouch for it personally, it is on my to do list to try along with the 570 other ideas for getting better guitar tone from amp sims.

 

[lmu2002]

Apparently the original sound file is no longer there. But in general, great guitar sound is one thing, great guitar sound in a mix is  completely another thing.  The marriage of guitars and bass is the key. In my experience guitars must lean heavily on the bass and stay away from the vocals. And must still sound energetic and articulate. This is very hard to achieve. But amp sims are great in this regard as it's easy to go back and adjust the drive, amp and speaker stages.

I usually end up shaving off a lot of low mids end to avoid bass and guitar fighting for the same space. I also use a spectrum analyser to check where the vocals sit in the spectrum and make a careful scoop there.  And especially with metal guitars, less distortion and overdrive often gives a better impact  and clarity in a mix even they might sound too light alone. Too much distortion makes guitars easily too soft and muddy.

I just bought a nice guitar which I tried in a recent project with amp and track settings for another guitar. The new one sounds terrible with those settings, thin, glassy and ear piercing. The pick ups (Duncan Blackouts vs. Duncan Custom/59) are just so different in character that these guitars need a very different treatment in the signal chain. The guitars themselves can be a factor too (Fender/Gibson etc).

Sometimes you just need to adjust the other components in a mix to make  guitars sound great. Soloing guitar with other instruments one by one can be helpful as well.

And in general, mixing rock/metal is hard. You can't stray too far off from the 'standard' as it will easily sound too strange or unacceptable by most listeners. It's a fine line.

[RBH]

I think one great style of production to study is some of the older Eagles albums. How they can get 4 vocals, acoustic guitars and 4-5 electric guitars plus a keyboard and rhythm to play nice is still amazing to me to this day. Very dense - but everything sits right where it needs to.  Apologies for going tangent to the original topic.