Good news for V-Vocal users

[gmp]

When I 1st installed CbB 2018.04, the very first version, I was very pleased that it was very stable and really worked well with V-Vocal. Few crashes and if it crashed I could just double click the CWP and be back up and running in about 10 sec. Far better than Sonar Platinum.

Today I'm happy to say that 2019.03 using Win updates from 10/7/18 is by far the most stable version for V-Vocal, I've found so far. I just worked on 3 songs tuning vocals and did 51  V-Vocal clips whit only 1 crash and that was on a spot that had 2 clips and each clip had a gain envelope. When I tried it the 2nd time I bounced to clip both clips to eliminate the gain envelopes and it worked fine.

It may be fine to update the latest Win updates, but for now I'm just going to stay with this version for at least another month or so before making any changes. I'm enjoying the stability.


 

[Tezza]

Can the bakers put V-Vocal in the new recipe?

[Grem]

38 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Can the bakers put V-Vocal in the new recipe?

If you mean including it with CbB, that won't happen. V-Vocal was a Roland product offered with Sonar when they owned Cakewalk. When Gibson bought Cakewalk, that was the end of V-Vocal.

Unless you already owned V-Vocal from a purchase of Sonar when it was with Roland, your not going to get it.

[Starship Krupa]

Doesn't Melodyne do what V-Vocal did?

[CJ Jacobson]

5 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Doesn't Melodyne do what V-Vocal did?

Yes and does it a lot better

[gmp]

 I've tried Melodyne a few times and was really trying to transition to it, but I was not able to fine tune the pitch like V-Vocal has allowed me to. In V-Vocal I can move the pitch manually and also draw pitch lines to my ear's satisfaction.

 It also has the Formant feature which is great when you have to move a pitch a half step or more and notice it changing the sound of the voice. Formant allows you to correct this in a manual way giving you total control. 

I do love the Melodyne feature of tuning notes in a chord. I know there are a few die hard V-Vocal users who have expressed the same thing. This post is really for them, to bring more stability.

Although I'm certainly open to any Melodyne users who want to explain how I can do what I want, especially ones that used to use V-Vocal and aware of it's strengths.

[Craig Anderton]

The Melodyne Essential version is more limited than V-Vocal was, but the higher versions like Editor and Studio are incredible. The only real feature it lacks compared to V-Vocal is the ability to add artificial vibrato, but you can do that with the Sonitus modulator. Drawing pitch lines doesn't have an exact equivalent, but the way Melodyne can flatten vibrato, enhance vibrato, separate the "blobs," do polyphonic processing, and so on is pretty effing remarkable. Being able to pitch-correct a couple guitar chords in a rhythm guitar track because I pressed down too hard on the strings is mind-blowing. I also feel that all things being equal, Melodyne is more transparent, with part of that due to formant controls.

It's too bad V-Vocal was never pursued further by Roland, but companies have different priorities. With Melodyne and Auto-Tune, as well as programs like Cubase/Logic/MOTU etc. having their own equivalent functionality, and companies like Waves and iZotope offering additional third-party solutions, Roland probably saw it as a niche market that would never pay back additional R&D. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Craig Anderton

[gmp]

4 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

The Melodyne Essential version is more limited than V-Vocal was, but the higher versions like Editor and Studio are incredible. The only real feature it lacks compared to V-Vocal is the ability to add artificial vibrato, but you can do that with the Sonitus modulator. Drawing pitch lines doesn't have an exact equivalent, but the way Melodyne can flatten vibrato, enhance vibrato, separate the "blobs," do polyphonic processing, and so on is pretty effing remarkable. Being able to pitch-correct a couple guitar chords in a rhythm guitar track because I pressed down too hard on the strings is mind-blowing. I also feel that all things being equal, Melodyne is more transparent, with part of that due to formant controls.

It's too bad V-Vocal was never pursued further by Roland, but companies have different priorities. With Melodyne and Auto-Tune, as well as programs like Cubase/Logic/MOTU etc. having their own equivalent functionality, and companies like Waves and iZotope offering additional third-party solutions, Roland probably saw it as a niche market that would never pay back additional R&D. 

 

Thanks Craig,  for the Melodyne info. All I've tried was the Melodyne Essential. I've know about the other versions, but didn't try them. I wonder if they give a trial period to see if I can get used to it? Can you elaborate on "Drawing pitch lines doesn't have an exact equivalent," I assume I can't draw pitch lines, but what's the workaround?

Sometimes a vocal note is off, but it's a very short note and I may draw a straight line and as long as it sounds natural, I'll use it. Or I may move 1 cycle of a vibrato up or down. how can Melodyne do this?

[Tezza]

Yes as Craig says, the problem with Melodyne is that you just get the Essentials version which has limitations. Essentials is offered with so many DAW's now it isn't funny but it is not a solution to professional pitch correction. The upgrade path can be expensive but they do have sales occasionally.

The annoying thing is, when people talk about how great Melodyne is, they are always talking about the most expensive package. There is also criticism of Melodyne as well, that it is not as transparent as something like Waves Tune. If you are a waves plugin user and you want pitch correction for vocals mainly then I think Waves Tune is a better option, it is MUCH cheaper as well and you get the full version, no annoying crippleware.

I think it is stronger for DAW's to have their own pitch correction if possible, some do, some don't. It is a real shame that Roland have consigned V-Vocal to dust and there are no options for Cakewalk to integrate it's own pitch correction.

 

[RexRed]

I used to be a hardcore V-Vocal fan but Melodyne Editor (Essential is nearly useless) won me over and I eventually bought Melodyne Studio when it went on a major sale.

I work with a lot of harmonies and being able to have my blobs in the same editor window is an absolute necessity.

I found myself editing and re-editing lines in V-Vocal over and over rather than getting them right and being able to leave them. I have had trouble with the lack of ability to "draw" pitch lines in Melodyne but now I use a two pronged strategy.

I get the pitch as close as I can in Melodyne using mostly the auto align and then the pitch drift tool and then I use the real-time pitch correction in Izotope Nectar (not full strength).

Together these work perfectly and place the pitch granularly where it needs to be.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by RexRed

[Craig Anderton]

20 hours ago, gmp said:

Sometimes a vocal note is off, but it's a very short note and I may draw a straight line and as long as it sounds natural, I'll use it. Or I may move 1 cycle of a vibrato up or down. how can Melodyne do this?

Yes, you can flatten a varying pitch all the way down to a straight line. Sometimes, using the pitch drift correction tool can do the job as well.

Being able to work with vibrato is one of Melodyne's strong points IMHO. You can isolate vibrato down to individual cycles (I split on zero-crossings), and raise or lower their amplitude.  It's impossible to tell by listening that the vibrato has been manipulated.

[Starship Krupa]

Since the thread has expanded a bit to include pitch correctors in general, I'm curious to know if anyone's messed about with Meldaproduction's MAutopitch.

The only pitch correction I've used for a finished product was Melodyne Essentials to do a bit of "drag the blobs around" here and there, one with some vocal tracks and then on a bass guitar track where the player just hit the wrong note, so it's kind of an undiscovered country for me.

My understanding is that there are two ways of doing it, one where you tell the corrector what to do and it listens to the track and processes it as it goes along, and then the way I did it with Melodyne where you go "clam" digging and drag individual botched notes into the correct pitch, add or correct vibrato, etc.

Do I have that right?

[msmcleod]

Melodyne MAutopitch is similar to how the original AutoTune used to work, and also how IzoTope Nectar works... It basically works automatically, so there's no editing.

What you can do however, is use automation to change the intensity of the effect, or whether it's on or off at all at various sections.

Another way of using it, is to use the select tool to select the area you want corrected, the use Process->Apply Effect from the menu.

[bitflipper]

Unless you're doing contemporary R&B with lots of Cher-effect vocals, stay away from automatic pitch correction entirely. That includes Melodyne's algorithm, which is actually quite good. Always edit pitch by hand, and always determine where corrections are needed by ear alone, ignoring the visuals. That will get you the most transparent pitch correction possible.

Great vocals simply don't need to be quantized to exact pitches any more than drums need to be quantized to exact ticks. Except for those genres that are built around machine-like precision, such as EDM. Listen to Paul McCartney or Paul Simon vocal tracks - both are masters of pitch, but neither are precisely on the note. Not ever.  

[Larry Jones]

3 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Listen to Paul McCartney or Paul Simon vocal tracks - both are masters of pitch, but neither are precisely on the note. Not ever.  

I'll see your Pauls, and raise you Mick Jagger and Frank Sinatra. Nailing notes is for opera singers. (For my voice, I need pitch correction just to get in the same time zone with the note I'm trying for.)

[Tezza]

When I was playing out regularly on the east coast, just acoustic guitar and vocals, romantic jazz style, my vocal pitch was faultless, many people thought it was a radio playing or recorded music until they saw I was there. That was because I am a good singer but more importantly, my voice was well practiced and warm. If I stop singing for a length of time, it takes about a month to get back to that level. It's impossible to get back to that level before that, it's just how long it takes me to warm up, regular practice for a month. I can't push it or it will cause my voice to go hoarse and it will be painful.

If my voice is warm, I won't hesitate to pick up the guitar and sing a song in public, if my voice is not warm...no way!

At the moment I can do scratch vocal tracks but that's it, to finish off the vocal tracks on my projects will require some sustained work on the vocals but I know it will come.

If you want to improve your vocals, you can cup your ear and sing into a wall at close range, 6-12 inches or so. That can increase your awareness of pitch, rebounding your vocals off the wall. The breath has to come from your stomach, your diaphragm, your stomach should be tight. It's like wrestling a beast, powerful air coming up from your diaphragm and being mediated by your vocal box. You also have to know the different modes of your voice and do the necessary range exercises within each mode. You should also be able to mediate different frequencies in your voice while you hold a note, literally run an EQ over it manually in your throat, while maintaining the same pitch.

Taking even a few singing lessons from a qualified teacher no matter how old or hopeless you think you are can improve things greatly.

I don't buy the "I can't sing" thing. That's like me saying I can't play the clarinet, I can't, but that is only because I haven't done the proper training and exercises for that instrument. The voice is no different, it is like any other instrument. If you don't do the correct training or exercises for your voice, it will never sound good.

People have different genetic qualities that may allow them to sing with a greater range or sensitivity or tonality but everyone should be able to sing in pitch within their range. If you can't do this, it is because you haven't done the right exercises or practiced your instrument in the right way. Get a teacher to show you the basics, you can't do it online, you need a real world teacher because that teacher has to see how your breathing and be able to tell what is happening with your voice in real time while you sing. Tell you what frequencies to mediate and improve the tone of your voice as you are singing.

Why would you spend a bunch of money on pitch correction software and invest so much time in learning how to use it, yet not spend any money on a singing teacher to learn the basic exercises nor undertake the necessary training to master control over your own voice?

My first singing teacher was a large woman, an opera singer who also played piano, she was in her 50's and was Italian. I remember my first session with her, it was such an eye opener. She was quite strict, we would do scales on the piano in the different modes and she would mark off what my ranges were and expected improvement! She would get me to hold a note really loudly and then walk around me poking me in the stomach and grabbing my neck, shouting instructions to get rid of frequencies and tones she didn't like. I never realized I could have so much control over my voice.

If you buying pitch correction software for yourself because your vocals sound crap, STOP! get a friggin decent singing teacher first!!!!!

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Tezza

[marcL]

6 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Unless you're doing contemporary R&B with lots of Cher-effect vocals, stay away from automatic pitch correction entirely. That includes Melodyne's algorithm, which is actually quite good. Always edit pitch by hand, and always determine where corrections are needed by ear alone, ignoring the visuals. That will get you the most transparent pitch correction possible.

Great vocals simply don't need to be quantized to exact pitches any more than drums need to be quantized to exact ticks. Except for those genres that are built around machine-like precision, such as EDM. Listen to Paul McCartney or Paul Simon vocal tracks - both are masters of pitch, but neither are precisely on the note. Not ever.  

 

2 hours ago, Larry Jones said:

I'll see your Pauls, and raise you Mick Jagger and Frank Sinatra. Nailing notes is for opera singers. (For my voice, I need pitch correction just to get in the same time zone with the note I'm trying for.)

To both above:

One thing that is always being forgotten is that a diversified good singer (Blues, Rock, Poprock, ...) does often draw the pitch of a note, e.g. the note starts on one pitch and is being slurred into the pitch of the song's "real" note. Mick Jagger is an extreme example to this and I have found out that I apply it myself very frequently. What has this to do with pitch correction?

Many times when I was working with Melodyne it showed me some notes completely out of tune although it sounded correct to my ears. Investigating more time in those cases I found out that it was a pitch slur described above. When I separated the notes correctly (not like the automatic detection) the resulting 2 legato notes were almost 100% correct in pitch!!! And not to forget about microtones! I found out that I use very often 50 cent microtones on such pitch slurs (legatos, especially on phrase end notes). I also observed that if I move the note start (separation) some milliseconds in Melodyne the pitch values change sometimes drastically! What's the clue of all that? It means that the detections of start and end of each note are of tremendous importance before it is possible to do pitch correction!!!! There is NEVER a good automatic pitch correction!!! You have to invest a lot of manual work in note detection IMHO, just to find out that the pitches are almost correct, but not the timing! ?

[msmcleod]

I almost never use pitch correction on my vocals, but quite often do on guitar.

I’ve got a 1/2 size cheap thing I use to get ideas down, with pretty bad intonation (all my decent guitars are safely locked in my studio). Melodyne is great for cleaning the pitch up.

[Craig Anderton]

5 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I almost never use pitch correction on my vocals, but quite often do on guitar.

I’ve got a 1/2 size cheap thing I use to get ideas down, with pretty bad intonation (all my decent guitars are safely locked in my studio). Melodyne is great for cleaning the pitch up.

I always use pitch correction on bass. Bass strings violate the laws of physics; they simply can't be under enough tension to produce notes that low, yet still be part of a playable instrument that doesn't have a 7-foot-long fretboard. So the pitch varies wildly as the note sustains. I use Melodyne to flatten the notes past the initial pluck. 

[Base 57]

1 hour ago, Craig Anderton said:

I always use pitch correction on bass. Bass strings violate the laws of physics; they simply can't be under enough tension to produce notes that low, yet still be part of a playable instrument that doesn't have a 7-foot-long fretboard. So the pitch varies wildly as the note sustains. I use Melodyne to flatten the notes past the initial pluck.

I don't know about anybody else but this was one of those Homer Simpson head slap moments for me.