Huge problem with the Tempo Map and audio following tempo changes

[Byron Dickens]

You could work everything out with virtual instruments and then replace them after everything is sorted.

[Jimbo 88]

Ok forgive me, there is a lot to wade thru here, I might understand the issue, I might not.

I do a lot of audio design, vo recording, sound effects etc..to picture or absolute time, then score (compose) music to picture (or even just the audio).  I change tempos all the time.  Some audio i want to stay right where it's at and other elements i want to follow the new tempos (tempi?).

So the trick is choosing an element's time base.  Is it musical or absolute.  you can change that in the clip and track properties on the left.  So let's say I have placed a musical audio clip in the timeline as part of the composition, say a rhythm guitar.  It starts in measure "X", but now the tempo has got to change.  I "bounce to Clips" the guitar part making sure the clip is exactly at the start and end of a measure.  I can change the tempo any way I want, then time stretch the guitar part back to the end of the measure that it was at.  I have done this many times always successful.   If the time stretched audio is what I like.. I bounce it to clips again, cause i found that working with a lot of time stretched elements will cause  apps to crash...this is true in Protools, Cubase, etc.

What I think your are trying to do is create a scenario where CbB detects beats in all your audio clips and adjusts everything to match a new tempo...that might work if you convert all your audio to a groove clip.  that seems to be fraught with issues.  I have seen this work, but never always successful ...in many other Daws.

I hope I helped and did not waste your time.

Best! Good Luck.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Jimbo 88

[Olaf]

14 hours ago, bdickens said:

You could work everything out with virtual instruments and then replace them after everything is sorted.

that's a good idea, but i've got guitar solos in there, and vocals, and those are hard to emulate.

i've grabbed the bull by the balls, and went old style: assessed a tempo for each part, on the fly, hoped it'd work, took a deep breath and re-recorded everything, except for the bass, which i'll have to redo later. if i later decide they don't work, it's back to the drawing board. but i might simplify my life for the clean guitar arpeggios.

[Olaf]

10 hours ago, Jimbo 88 said:

Ok forgive me, there is a lot to wade thru here, I might understand the issue, I might not.

I do a lot of audio design, vo recording, sound effects etc..to picture or absolute time, then score (compose) music to picture (or even just the audio).  I change tempos all the time.  Some audio i want to stay right where it's at and other elements i want to follow the new tempos (tempi?).

So the trick is choosing an element's time base.  Is it musical or absolute.  you can change that in the clip and track properties on the left.  So let's say I have placed a musical audio clip in the timeline as part of the composition, say a rhythm guitar.  It starts in measure "X", but now the tempo has got to change.  I "bounce to Clips" the guitar part making sure the clip is exactly at the start and end of a measure.  I can change the tempo any way I want, then time stretch the guitar part back to the end of the measure that it was at.  I have done this many times always successful.   If the time stretched audio is what I like.. I bounce it to clips again, cause i found that working with a lot of time stretched elements will cause  apps to crash...this is true in Protools, Cubase, etc.

What I think your are trying to do is create a scenario where CbB detects beats in all your audio clips and adjusts everything to match a new tempo...that might work if you convert all your audio to a groove clip.  that seems to be fraught with issues.  I have seen this work, but never always successful ...in many other Daws.

I hope I helped and did not waste your time.

Best! Good Luck.

Thanks, I was thinking of something along the same lines, but couldn't figure it out. I'll take a closer look at what you said, later, and try it step by step - and get back to you.

[Jimbo 88]

Ok I might have not understood, or misspoke, or just spoke from 5 years back.  I had in my head you where trying to change tempos within a song and had trouble. You can change tempos for complete songs in other DAWs, even if there are audio clips.  I just did it in Cubase, it took a little trickery.  I got little pieces of info from different sources and make it work.   Let me see if I can find a way to do this in Cake.  I have not had a reason to this, but I want to try.

[Jimbo 88]

Ok, Now I think I was pretty much right the 1st time.  So I have 2 versions of a song, one at 112 BPM sung by a choir.  Another at 104 BPM sung and performed by a vocalist and rock band.  Kinda always felt the 104 BPM was a little slow and the 112 was too fast after listening to them back to back.  So I mucked around and got the choir version to playback at 107 Bpm..fine.  I'm running into a bunch of artifacts and issues trying to speed up the slower rock band version.  This confirms my suspicions...It's dodgy in any DAW changing speeds.  It's not a guarantee  to work every time.

[msmcleod]

58 minutes ago, Jimbo 88 said:

Ok, Now I think I was pretty much right the 1st time.  So I have 2 versions of a song, one at 112 BPM sung by a choir.  Another at 104 BPM sung and performed by a vocalist and rock band.  Kinda always felt the 104 BPM was a little slow and the 112 was too fast after listening to them back to back.  So I mucked around and got the choir version to playback at 107 Bpm..fine.  I'm running into a bunch of artifacts and issues trying to speed up the slower rock band version.  This confirms my suspicions...It's dodgy in any DAW changing speeds.  It's not a guarantee  to work every time.

You can change both the online and offline algorithms for audio stretching in preferences:

The Online Render is what is used when you change things on the fly (like adjusting tempo), and by default uses an algorithm which is fast, but is prone to artefacts.  The idea is that you use this to get your timing right, and use the Offline Render to commit your results.

The Offline Render is used when using Bounce to Clip(s) / Bounce to Tracks / Audio Export.  This is slower, but produces far less artefacts.

Also some algorithms are more suited to others depending on the type of audio you're stretching (e.g. vocals / bass / drums etc ).
 

[Olaf]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:48 AM, msmcleod said:

You can change both the online and offline algorithms for audio stretching in preferences:

Thanks, I have them both on Elastique Pro, and that's the behavior I get.

@Noel Borthwick Here is the project download link, as a .zip file, The project file is inside the folder. I couldn't export it as a bundle project, because it's got the clip stretching active on many of them.

https://we.tl/t-84601Ma8Vt

The vocal is a sketch recording on the phone, in gibberish, so pay no particular attention to it.

 

There are all sorts of weird clip behaviors, as well, related to trimming, resizing, once "follow project tempo" is activated. You can find the gifs I've made here:

https://we.tl/t-bk0LP7aW8q

If you can't make sense of something, or have questions, shoot me a message.

There's also irregular behavior that I've noted before with Softube Tape, which then stopped after a few updates, and now happens with all kinds of plugins - namely various transport related commands (stop & play, or moving the playhead/cursor on the timeline during play) reset or move the parameters within the plugins around, It almost makes me reluctant to stop playing or move along the timeline.

These plugins are:

Embertone Sensual Saxophone (Kontakt 6.7) - resets the "*****" parameter = play velocity, reverb & distortion;

Waves H-EQ - EQ bands jump up randomly;

Sonimus SonEQ - resets the parameters to 0.

They're all documented in the Gif folder.

 

There's also the recurring problem of the Arranger Track not showing on project open, sometimes not even the Tempo Track, and having to be rechecked every time.

Variety of Sound NastyDLA Wet only setting is not remembered.

The Browser/Synth Rack/Help window sizes and order in the right side dock are not remembered.

 

Very rarely either of these settings will be remembered, but I couldn't tell you how and why.

If these were solved in the next releases, that would be a massive improvement.

Thanks!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Olaf

[David Baay]

I will not have time to look at the project for a while, but I can tell you from some of what you described that a key to getting this to work as expected in this use case is ensuring that the Follow Option is 'Auto strech' before you enable Follow Project. There may still be issues, but that will address a lot of them.

[Olaf]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:47 PM, David Baay said:

I will not have time to look at the project for a while, but I can tell you from some of what you described that a key to getting this to work as expected in this use case is ensuring that the Follow Option is 'Auto strech' before you enable Follow Project. There may still be issues, but that will address a lot of them.

Thanks!

[Olaf]

On 12/24/2021 at 5:21 AM, Jimbo 88 said:

What I think your are trying to do is create a scenario where CbB detects beats in all your audio clips and adjusts everything to match a new tempo...

No, it actually involves performing some simple math. It knows what the current tempo is, it knows what the new tempos is, just needs to recalculate the clip length by multiplying it by the ratio between the two.

That said, @Jimbo 88, @David Baay, thanks a lot for your input. I gave up trying to use "follow project tempo", and just used clip stretch instead. Tried to match the clip end to the normal grid line, and it worked relatively well. Not 100%, cause the stretch ratio only has 1 decimal, but close enough. And on that happy note, I've finally managed to decide on a song structure. Still have a little rearranging to do, for the new section order, but nothing spectacular.

@Noel Borthwick I have some new irregular behavior clips, working with the Arranger and the Tempo Track. "Arranger Exclude" is permanently unchecked in the Tempo Lane.

Tempo envelope nodes not copied with Arranger sections

Copying Arranger section doesn't copy Tempo change & doesn't observe track order. Pressing DEL with Arranger Section copied attempts to deletes Synth

Drawing node on Tempo envelope deletes different node

Edited February 25, 2022 by Olaf

[Olaf]

@Noel Borthwick continued

Select Tempo envelope node unavailable on hover over node + Draw click on node deletes different node

 

Moving Arranger section fails if a wave clip exceeds the section area, and moving Arranger clip doesn't move the Tempo nodes.

 

EDIT: added these two clips:

Comp trimming clips trims the start of the next clip.

 

Comp Trimming a clip moves the wave content inside the clip.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Olaf

[John Vere]

blank
 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by John Vere

[Olaf]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, John Vere said:

there’s a size limit on files posted directly here so no videos and best to put GIF on giffy

You'd be surprised to know - I know I was - that certain mp4 encodings take far less space than GIF files, so it's actually more space efficient to save them that way. These videos all add up to a few megs, so I'm well within the quota. When it's exceeded, I'll delete them. Fingers crossed these (huge) problems get solved by then.

On 2/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, John Vere said:

the only way I can change the tempo of a song is to first export all the audio as stems first.
Then I delete all audio tracks and drag the exported audio back to where they came from.

Thank you for the advice, I can't use it, though, since my problem is having different tempos on different parts - and not definite ones, at that - which I need to move around and tempo adjust to fit the new places in the song. So exporting everything as single take stems is exactly what I can't do. But I've settled on a definite structure - still think I may need to adjust the tempo on one part, though, but nothing major. Just hand stretch until it sounds as "right" as it can, and then rely on Melodyne for the final touches.

[Will.]

On 2/25/2022 at 5:15 PM, Olaf said:

@Noel Borthwick continued

Select Tempo envelope node unavailable on hover over node + Draw click on node deletes different node

 

 

Moving Arranger section fails if a wave clip exceeds the section area, and moving Arranger clip doesn't move the Tempo nodes.

 

 

EDIT: added these two clips:

Comp trimming clips trims the start of the next clip.

 

 

Comp Trimming a clip moves the wave content inside the clip.

 

 

 

Hey Olaf. With comp trimming, I think you have stretch on, thats why the information in side the clip is moving. It's trying to adjust to the tempo its stretched too. I might be wrong.

I will take a look at the project as soon as I get free time (if its still available.) 

I'm not paying full attention to this thread, right. Doing my yearly check up. Dentist after this ? 

[marcL]

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Comp Trimming a clip moves the wave content inside the clip.

This is an issue that I have often when I create/adjust a crossfade in a take lane (had it just yesterday). It drives me crazy!

Most of the time I can handle it by copying/moving the particular clips to a new working track (with only 1 take lane!) and then bouncing one of the clips before I do the crossfades. Sometimes a project close and reopen helps. Other times there is almost no way, i.e. I have to do the edit outside of CbB!

A lot of people say that CbB is much more bug-free than Sonar, maybe it's true for a lot of things (mixing, recording, MIDI). But in respect of clip editing I don't agree at all! There are so many bugs and hassles there. Just this morning it kept me busy! ? 

[Craig Anderton]

You're probably not interested in a workaround, but as someone who thinks tempo changes are important, I've found the best way to introduce them is in the two-track mix. That way you can record with tempo-synched effects, quantize parts if needed, but once mixed they will follow any tempo changes. The quality seems to be better as well, compared to trying to change project tempo when a bunch of clips all need to change at once. 

I use several DAWs and wrote up how to do this in Studio One if you need more details; the same technique works with Cakewalk, and works well. Bring the two-track mix into Cakewalk. Select the two-track mix, open AudioSnap, and select Clip Follows Project. The tempo track doesn't need to match the two-track master, because any tempo changes are relative, not absolute. Just move tempo markers around on the tempo track to change tempo.

This technique also makes it easy to add accelerandos, ritardandos, etc. 

If you want to hear what this sounds like, every song in my album The Singles (the link goes to YouTube) has tempo changes that I think breathe life into the songs. 

[Olaf]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:54 PM, Will_Kaydo said:

I think you have stretch on, thats why the information in side the clip is moving. It's trying to adjust to the tempo its stretched too.

Hey, Will! Normally, stretching the clip would proportionally stretch the wave content along with the edge you're stretching and in proportion to the clip length, not slide it inside inside the clip like that. And it would do it as you change the stretch value, not on trim. What's in the video it does even without stretch enabled, and with "follow project tempo" on.

If you want to check out the project, follow this link, I've aligned the clips via stretch for about half the project, around 3:55, it starts to be out of sync again, for the next two parts - I had those aligned, too, but slowed down the tempo again, by a bit. It's the same recordings, only I've bounced a few clips, after having them aligned, and it's a little less embarrassing ?. Same improvised vocals, recorded on the phone.

https://we.tl/t-d4aBu8cIEt

On 2/28/2022 at 2:36 PM, marled said:

Most of the time I can handle it by copying/moving the particular clips to a new working track (with only 1 take lane!) and then bouncing one of the clips before I do the crossfades. Sometimes a project close and reopen helps.

A lot of people say that CbB is much more bug-free than Sonar, maybe it's true for a lot of things (mixing, recording, MIDI). But in respect of clip editing I don't agree at all! There are so many bugs and hassles there.

Yeah, I agree with you. Ever since the new export dialog, I can't export a song in the same session I've been mixing - it only exports some of the audio tracks completely unprocessed, and ignores everything else. I need to reopen the project every time before export, and redo all the setting that it doesn't remember. Very frustrating. Every time I open a single take track - after comping, I like to keep everything on one lane - it arbitrarily creates a second lane and it automatically distributes the clips between them.  Another thing that bugs like hell is that when you record a new take it automatically splits all the takes in the parallel lanes, at the point where you stop recording. I have to manually remove the clips before it and resize them all, and if you're recording in a loop, the splits are very small and you have to zoom in, cause you can't grab them, and so on. Do it after every single take. It doesn't do it in all projects, and I have no idea what prompts this behavior. I've changed all the settings in the comping settings, no change. Very frustrating.

Absolutely agree with you.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Olaf

[Olaf]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:02 PM, Craig Anderton said:

Bring the two-track mix into Cakewalk. Select the two-track mix, open AudioSnap, and select Clip Follows Project. The tempo track doesn't need to match the two-track master, because any tempo changes are relative, not absolute. Just move tempo markers around on the tempo track to change tempo.

Hey Craig, thanks a lot for the advice! I really appreciate your audio knowledge, and have read a lot of your articles. I am interested in workarounds, but where I also need to move the parts around, to various structure variants, and adjust the tempo accordingly, very frequently, I think the process of exporting everything and reopening it separately might be very cumbersome. I've adopted manually stretching every clip for now - it's still a lot more cumbersome than just readjusting the tempo and have the clips follow along, but at least it solves the alignment issue, and it seems the simplest, under the circumstances.

I'd like to pick your brain on one issue, though. I use a lot of warmers in my mix - console channels on every track, a console bus emulator on the two-bus, for the summing, plus a transformer and crossover emulator, tapes on everything, and the end result is warm, and thick, with a good stereo image, the harshness rounded off, all good and well, but then I listen to Berlin - Marillion, which I have as a reference track for this mix, and everything seems to be so focused in their mix, no flab, with a lot more net, yet not harsh, transients, whereas mine seem pasty and diffuse, bloated, and grainy - a smooth grain, but still - it has a "grey" sound.

Would clippers help on every track? - I've got a clipper on the maser bus, cause it does have that type of effect - netter - more of a metallic brilliance, but without harshness - transients, and it sucks in the gut. You do seem to have that kind of transients in your Youtube project, do you mix through a console? Nice songs, I detect a little bit of a Mike Oldfield guitar in there, Bryan Ferry vocals - who's singing? -  and a little Pink Floyd mood combined with a Brit sound. I like the guitar sound at 10:10. Real amp, right? Did you play everything? My favorites are "My butterfly" and "Goodbye to you".

Edited March 7, 2022 by Olaf

[Craig Anderton]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:41 PM, Olaf said:

I'd like to pick your brain on one issue, though. I use a lot of warmers in my mix - console channels on every track, a console bus emulator on the two-bus, for the summing, plus a transformer and crossover emulator, tapes on everything, and the end result is warm, and thick, with a good stereo image, the harshness rounded off, all good and well, but then I listen to Berlin - Marillion, which I have as a reference track for this mix, and everything seems to be so focused in their mix, no flab, with a lot more net, yet not harsh, transients, whereas mine seem pasty and diffuse, bloated, and grainy - a smooth grain, but still - it has a "grey" sound.

Would clippers help on every track? - I've got a clipper on the maser bus, cause it does have that type of effect - netter - more of a metallic brilliance, but without harshness - transients, and it suck it the gut. You do seem to have that kind of transients in your Youtube project, do you mix through a console?

Everything is mixed in the box, no console. I don't think clippers would help, but it's hard to answer because we have quite different philosophies. I try to avoid effects as much as possible, and do a lot of my processing on tracks using destructive DSP, especially for the vocals. I think the focus you hear in my music is due to track EQ. I always start mixes in  mono, and use EQ so that each instrument owns a specific part of the frequency spectrum. Once all the parts are distinct in mono, then I start thinking about stereo. I also do a lot of multiband processing, which helps with imaging and focus (especially distorted guitar). 

I also never use processing on the master bus. I see mixing and mastering as very different processes: mixing is about obtaining a balance, mastering is about polishing that balance to perfection. After finishing a mix I let it sit for a few weeks, and then I master it. Perhaps some of the effects that you add to every track would be more effective if used while mastering? Also, don't overlook transient shapers. For masters, the best I've found is Waves Trans-X, because it's multiband. 

On 3/5/2022 at 1:41 PM, Olaf said:

Nice songs, I detect a little bit of a Mike Oldfield guitar in there, Bryan Ferry vocals - who's singing? -  and a little Pink Floyd mood combined with a Brit sound. I like the guitar sound at 10:10. Real amp, right? Did you play everything? My favorites are "My Butterfly" and "Goodbye to you".

I haven't used a real amp for recording in decades - even when I was doing concerts back in the 60s, I used clean FRFR keyboard amps, and got my sound before it hit the amp's input jack. And yes, that is me playing all the parts and doing all the singing. A comparison to Bryan Ferry is a first, though...usually people say I sound like David Byrne or Roger McGuinn. I'll take any of those  

The album The Singles was from 2019, when my wife was dying, so it was influenced by the turbulence of that year. You might want to check out some other projects. Take Me Back to Tomorrow is from 2020, and one listener called it "tropical pop" which I think is really accurate. It has an upbeat, island vibe. But for 2021, I got into a 60s retro mode with Anything Goes - lots of guitars, Chicago blues harmonica, etc. I never plan these "themes"...I don't have to worry about being "commercial," so I just do whatever feels good at the time.   

You might also like Neo-, which is short for "Neo-Psychedelic Music for the 21st Century." It was my take on what psychedelic music would sound like if it was invented today. It's the most layered, with the thickest mix and lots of guitar.  There are other projects on my YouTube channel, but I think those would interest you the most, and maybe give you some ideas

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to help.