Looking for an audio interface?

[RexRed]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:24 PM, John Vere said:

You didn’t read my post. You need an interface with loop back for streaming   Those Behringers don’t look like they do. 
 

 

I bought two of them, the Behringer UMC 1820s.

I have two PCs, one I call my workstation computer and the other I call my streaming computer.

I have a "very" complex system for YouTube live 4k streaming.

I have two powerful PCs,  one of the Behringer UMC 1820s connected to each.

For loop back I just run the PC audio out of my Realtek integrated sound and into the streaming PCs Behringer inputs.

I can route anything out of the Realtek through Windows sound options. 

My studio speakers and headphones I always monitor through the second Behringer connected to the streaming computer. 

The Behringer 1 is hooked to Cakewalk as is my studio mic and/or instrument inputs. That is just about it. 

The line level speaker out of Behringer 1 is routed to the inputs of Behringer 2, the mic and instrument outputs of Behringer 1 are routed out to other inputs in Behringer 2 and the Realtek stereo outs are routed out to Behringer 2 inputs also.

After owning the Behringers for about a day I realized some really crappy things.

One is that Behringer tech support does not and will not supply a signal flow diagram to this device.

I searched the net high and low and not one single diagram can be found.

Secondly, their forum site is like a crazy maze.

And they sent me an email to my query for the signal flow diagram stating they only supply signal flow diagrams of their devices to "partners".

This hit me like a slap in the face.

I wish I had not had to buy these.

The other really crappy thing is they both run REALLY hot. Hot enough to slowly cook an egg on the right side of each unit.

They run hot whether if they are under load or not.

I expect to only get about 2 years out or these devices before they fry their internal components.

With that said, I am still keeping them, together the cost me nearly 600 dollars total. I got scalped about 50 bucks each by the seller on Amazon.

But they do the job for now and do it rather well allowing me to isolate all of my signals and I have actual physical knobs to control them at all times.

This also allows me to set up "everything" and not have to have multiple setups for different kinds of broadcasts. i.e. Cakewalk vs other live broadcasts.

Instead of it taking a couple hours to get all the ins and outs jury-rigged to halfway work, it is always ready, I flip a few switches, drop my greenscreen and go.  

I do not like the heat issues with the Behringers at all.

I will be looking to buy RME devices to replace them as soon can I can swing it.

I have lots of questions though about the RMEs.

Are there signal flow diagrams available? Do the big ones put off enormous heat (enough to fry and egg) or any heart?

Sitting next to these heat makers, they make me feel faint.

There is the option of replacing only one of my Behringers with an RME. 

I could store one Behringer on a shelf and when the first one fries replace it with the other one. 

I would put the RME on the workstation/gaming computer with Cakewalk.

I have to keep both interfaces close in proximity so I can use 1 foot Hosa patch cables. Any longer and the cables attract interference.

I am seeing a lot of RME devices for sale so it seems. Could you all talk about the RMEs more? The different flavors and prices. I plan to do a lot of research on them. Do all of the RME models allow multiple instances of their devices? 

The ability to use two of them at once is something to seriously consider.

The heat problem with the Behringers seems to be a real deal breaker thing, such that I cannot even stack them on top of each other.

If I could get even one of them out of the equation that would be good.

I am really liking the Cakewalk recordings that come out of the Behringers though.

It is noticeably better than any other device I have ever used. 

Why is there so much heat? Is this because of a really old sound CPU?

My EMU 18020m would get really hot too. That only lasted me a few years too, nearly 500 dollars right down the drain...

I need the Behringers fairly close by so I can reach the pan pots.

I have found that it is my streaming computer than needs the multiple ins.

Ins from the Realtek, ins from the main out of the Behringer 1 and ins from channel outputs from Behringer 1.

While, all that is generally going into Behringer 1 is my mic and an instrument.

But, the preamps and recording is so very good with the Behringer.

I would hate to spend over 1000 dollars on a RME just to find I have lost that only good advantage.

From what I read about the RME's recording circuitry it is second to none.

But I read glowing reviews about the Behringers too and few mentioned that they run hotter than a coffee warmer.    

Edited September 16, 2021 by RexRed
Typo

[RexRed]

I am going to pre order the RME Fireface UCX II 40-channel USB Interface.

If I buy it now it will be in stock sometime in the next few months...

The DSP mixer with the Fireface looks great!

My Emu 1820m had one of those.

I am mostly buying it for the near zero jitter and ultra low latency.

I have a feeling that this jitter that is causing the anomaly I have been experiencing with my audio interfaces (several different brands) not faithfully reproducing my transients.

I will  use the RME on my Cakewalk workstation and the Behringer on my streaming computer. 

The RME is a great tip peeps!

Hooking two of them up would be something really great!

Two Nvidia 3090s and 2 RME  Fireface UCX II 40-channel USB interfaces in the same pc. WOW!

Edited September 16, 2021 by RexRed

[RexRed]

I like the Behringer UMC 1820 for the streaming computer because each input has a dedicated volume pot where the RME has the DSP mixer, that is not optimum in a live environment were often an active app is locked into full screen mode, like a video game does. When a game is active, switching to a DSP mixer is a pain..

[Will.]

@RexRed You literally just need two affortable interfaces connected to one pc for live stream. Any of the popular affortable entry level Focusrite 2i2, Presonus 96 or the M-Audio Air will do | or | any of your choice. 

This will record both Audio of your mic or game simultaneously to OBS or which ever streaming capture platform you use. 

Your setup should then look like: Mic into Cakewalk recording with one interface and the Streaming capture sound into OBS using the other. This will give you mere zero latency and should not be an issue ever for this - even within the most demanding setup. 

All you need to do is get an interface just for your mic and use your Behringer to capture your game's live stream.

However: Your systems quick response and performance within the game graphics is a different department on its own. You will need to look at upgrading your CPU, Graphics Card, add Memory, Hard drive speed and dust your fans off every 3 months of so. 

Hope you get your setup sorted out soon and get your streaming on with close to zero latency. ☺

Edited September 16, 2021 by Will_Kaydo
Typos

[DeeringAmps]

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

@RexRed You literally just need to affortable two affordable interfaces connected to one pc for live stream

Will makes a good point, it can be done.
However, you are having other issues as well.

8 hours ago, RexRed said:

pre order the RME Fireface UCX II

RME is famous for its drivers. Their mic pres are also highly regarded for their transparency.
I don't think you can go wrong with  RME; the downside, you get what you pay for and top value = top price.

I have the original Babyface in my office and the UFX+ in the studio (ran the original UFX for 9 years).
I've never tried to use both at the same time, but they use the same USB driver, so I suspect that I could.

You mentioned that you enjoy the "knobs" on the Behringer. Its all "virtual" with RME.
 

8 hours ago, RexRed said:

The DSP mixer with the Fireface looks great!

TotalMix takes a bit of use to wrap your head around, like any "desk" does, but once you do, its great and beyond "versatile".

I suspect it will do everything you need and more....

t

[RexRed]

20 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

@RexRed You literally just need two affortable interfaces connected to one pc for live stream. Any of the popular affortable entry level Focusrite 2i2, Presonus 96 or the M-Audio Air will do | or | any of your choice. 

This will record both Audio of your mic or game simultaneously to OBS or which ever streaming capture platform you use. 

Your setup should then look like: Mic into Cakewalk recording with one interface and the Streaming capture sound into OBS using the other. This will give you mere zero latency and should not be an issue ever for this - even within the most demanding setup. 

All you need to do is get an interface just for your mic and use your Behringer to capture your game's live stream.

However: Your systems quick response and performance within the game graphics is a different department on its own. You will need to look at upgrading your CPU, Graphics Card, add Memory, Hard drive speed and dust your fans off every 3 months of so. 

Hope you get your setup sorted out soon and get your streaming on with close to zero latency. ☺

Well that is all true if you have a fast workstation and are only streaming in SD or maybe even HD.

But if you are streaming in 4k then that option is out.

Even with the minimal running in the background it can congest a 12 core 24 thread PC with 128 GB of ram, and yes even with an Nvidia 3090 like I have.

And then add to that the question of "What are you streaming?"...

Streaming even HD or SD while streaming in a 3D modeling program, the moment you hit the "render" button in the 3D modeler, even the fastest computer slows to a crawl.

And then your fans on YouTube get a spinning circle and frozen stream and they all leave your broadcast because, they haven't got time to wait for the steam to come back.

And then YouTube says it will end your stream in a few minutes because it is, "not receiving enough video and/or audio". In the course of my adventures I have had this happen many many times. And of course the tendency is to blame YouTube. It is rarely ever, or rather, never YouTube's fault. It is the fault of expecting too much from a single PC. And processes divided across ram chips and multicores never like to share.

Now multiply that same problem X6 while streaming in 4k which requires a fiber optic internet connection to stream 4k.

Since a streaming computer becomes necessary then also multiply the X6, X6 again...

That is if you have 6 YouTube channels and each one you serve a different kind of content. 

That means that for each broadcast you use a different array of mics, program and other devices. 

With only two interfaces you have to unplug all of the devices from one broadcast and plug in other device for the next.

That can take up to two hours (or more) to get everything set. By that time, I am often too tired to steam, not feeling it anymore and exhausted from pulling my hair out.  

If you have two devices with many inputs and many outputs on each computer you simply open the programs you need for the broadcast and everything is already set to go.

We are talking about a very complex setup with devices that you are not allowed to have a signal flow diagram for... 

So you sit there for two hours pushing buttons and unplugging and replugging in stuff until stuff magically finally works.

All to unplug it for another completely different broadcast right after.

So having "everything" plugged in and working all the time is a must.

Then you load your particular software or game or, open Cakewalk, comb your hair, dye your beard and you are ready to broadcast.

  

Edited September 17, 2021 by RexRed

[Will.]

15 minutes ago, RexRed said:

Well that is all true if you have a fast workstation and are only streaming in SD or maybe even HD.

But if you are streaming in 4k then that option is out.

Even with the minimal running in the background it can congest a 12 core 24 thread PC with 128 GB of ram, and yes even with an Nvidia 3090 like I have.

And then add to that the question of "What are you streaming?"...

Streaming even HD or SD while streaming in a 3D modeling program, the moment you hit the "render" button in the 3D modeler, even the fastest computer slows to a crawl.

And then your fans on YouTube get a spinning circle and frozen stream and they all leave your broadcast because, they haven't got time to wait for the steam to come back.

And then YouTube says it will end your stream in a few minutes because it is, "not receiving enough video and/or audio". In the course of my adventures I have had this happen many many times. And of course the tendency is to blame YouTube. It rarely ever, or rather, never YouTube's fault. It is the fault of expecting too much from a single PC. And processes divided across ram chips and multicores never like to share.

Now multiply that same problem X6 while streaming in 4k which requires a fiber optic internet connection to stream 4k.

Since a streaming computer becomes necessary then also multiply the X6, X6 again...

That is if you have 6 YouTube channels and each one you serve a different kind of content. 

That means that for each broadcast you use a different array of mics, program and other devices. 

With only two interfaces you have to unplug all of the devices from one broadcast and plug in other device for the next.

That can take up to two hours (or more) to get everything set. By that time, I am often too tired to steam, not feeling it anymore and exhausted from pulling my hair out.  

If you have two devices with many inputs and many outputs on each computer you simply open the programs you need for the broadcast and everything is already set to go.

We are talking about a very complex setup with devices that you are not allowed to have a signal flow diagram for... 

So you sit there for two hours pushing buttons and unplugging and replugging in stuff until stuff magically finally works.

All to unplug it for another completely different broadcast right after.

So having "everything" plugged in and working all the time is a must.

Then you load your particular software or game or, open Cakewalk, comb your hair, dye your beard and you are ready to broadcast.

  

FWIW: I have a friend that stream games too and his life is not as complicated as yours in 4K.

Streaming live games and broadcasting them is literally how he makes a living with a setup of just two small interfaces on twitch and youtube all at the same time. 

 

[RexRed]

 

2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

FWIW: I have a friend that stream games too and his life is not as complicated as yours in 4K.

Streaming live games and broadcasting them is literally how he makes a living with a setup of just two small interfaces on twitch and youtube all at the same time. 

 

Twitch doesn't allow live 4k broadcast that I know of. If they do it is only to a handful of streamers. Facebook doesn't allow 4k live broadcast either that I know of. Only Youtbe does that. I make a good living off my YouTube channels. A few of my songs I have made with Cakewalk have had over a million listens on YouTube. 

Part of the success is obtaining the best video and audio quality possible out of my equipment.

Pushing the envelope, so to speak. ? 

[RexRed]

17 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

Will makes a good point, it can be done.
However, you are having other issues as well.

RME is famous for its drivers. Their mic pres are also highly regarded for their transparency.
I don't think you can go wrong with  RME; the downside, you get what you pay for and top value = top price.

I have the original Babyface in my office and the UFX+ in the studio (ran the original UFX for 9 years).
I've never tried to use both at the same time, but they use the same USB driver, so I suspect that I could.

You mentioned that you enjoy the "knobs" on the Behringer. Its all "virtual" with RME.
 

TotalMix takes a bit of use to wrap your head around, like any "desk" does, but once you do, its great and beyond "versatile".

I suspect it will do everything you need and more....

t

I am thinking seriously of putting up the $1,500.00 for the new RME that is on a waiting list until it come out sometime in the next few months (preorder only).

For these reasons, I like the idea of no jitter (a lot), it seems to also be the lowest latency of any device available and I like the TotalMix DSP. It also has a lot of ins and outs. I mostly like the knobs on the streaming computers Behringer interface because it is the last thing in the chain before the live stream.

I could live without the other Behringer for the workstation PC. 

I wonder if running my inputs through a small preamp before the RME would give me the physical knobs I like having?

It might also give a bit of warm coloration.

Any thoughts on that? I think msmcleod mentioned preamps with the RME.

I need to go back and reread his post.

I am wondering if I will have to use the RME blind too with no signal flow schematic?

What has happened to these companies? They do not give you a clear understanding of how to use these products or how they function?

Just plug stuff in and hope it works...

Edited September 17, 2021 by RexRed

[RexRed]

BTW, I have stopped using VoiceMeeter Potato altogether, I do use the virtual cables that come with it.

I prefer letting Windows Settings handle my "virtual" routing.

I send my Windows browser and gaming audio out of the Realtek to inputs on the Behringer streaming interface. That is what I call a "hardware" loop around.

Then my Behringer interface is not put into some odd loop mode that robs other functionality away from it.

I don't really know what is going on because I have no signal flow diagram.

So, keeping things as relegated and simple as possible is the best way to insure things run all the time without any latency and without fail.

[DeeringAmps]

6 hours ago, RexRed said:

might also give a bit of warm coloration. Any thoughts on that?

The 8 line ins on my UFX are mostly mic pres:
uAudio LA-610: go-to for vocals and bass
Great River MP-500: vocals
2 AEA RPQ-500: for my AEA R88, stereo acoustic guitar
NEVE 517 500: vocals, direct in guitar/bass

I've done some "down sizing" the past year.
I had a Sphere L22 that went into mics 1-2 on the UFX.
Frankly I prefer the TLM 103 > LA-610.
I was under the impression that  the L22 could also do a "stereo" capture; not so much...

HTH,

t

[RexRed]

18 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

The 8 line ins on my UFX are mostly mic pres:
uAudio LA-610: go-to for vocals and bass
Great River MP-500: vocals
2 AEA RPQ-500: for my AEA R88, stereo acoustic guitar
NEVE 517 500: vocals, direct in guitar/bass

I've done some "down sizing" the past year.
I had a Sphere L22 that went into mics 1-2 on the UFX.
Frankly I prefer the TLM 103 > LA-610.
I was under the impression that  the L22 could also do a "stereo" capture; not so much...

HTH,

t

I am sorry if i appear stupid on this but could someone please explain how these preamps are used?

I will ask a few really dumb questions and show how little I really know about this but,

Don't these audio interfaces already have preamps?

Are they too weak for some sources or is it best to just leave the volumes down low on the interfaces and let the volumes on the outboard preamps do the lifting muscle? 

Are these used not so much for the front and back inputs but are you all referring to using them for ADAT instead?

The Behringers have Midas preamps but the RME would not have those. For over 1000 dollars I would expect the preamps on the new Fireface to be even better. Also the Behringers have a PAD button for really loud inputs and a instrument/line toggle button. 

So you would place these between the ADAT SPDIF out and before the inputs into the ADAT?

I don't really understand how you are using these preamps.

Another really dumb question is, on these new Behringers, I have noticed that I will get a signal through the devices the clipping lights will blink even when the volumes on the front of the device for the input are down all the way? Why is this happening? They really don't work to shut signals completely off. This has thrown me for a loop. Another reason why a signal flow diagram would have been nice.

Thanks in advance for helping me figure this all out!

You people are really fantastic!

And just to put this out there? Isn't Behringer the company that has been using everyone's designs undercutting the people they reverse engineer them from and now that they are the largest company in the audio landscape they won't even release a signal flow diagram...

I do not think I like Behringer.

I would rather pay an ethical company like RME much more. A company that invents and develops its own technology rather than a company stealing ideas from others and using it to undercut others with a price that does not include the R and D that went into designing the technology in the first place...

Besides, who here has had a Behringers product die after the first year or so of use? I personally have... 

As you can tell, them not supplying a signal flow diagram has really burned my onion...

Am I wrong about this? Or is this just saying it how it is?

Edited September 18, 2021 by RexRed

[Byron Dickens]

54 minutes ago, RexRed said:

And just to put this out there? Isn't Behringer the company that has been stealing everyone's designs and using them and selling these products from stolen designs undercutting the people they stole them from and now that they are the largest company in the audio landscape they won't even release a signal flow diagram...

Reverse engineering 40 year old designs no longer being manufactured and no longer covered by patents is not really "stealing."

[RexRed]

1 minute ago, bdickens said:

Reverse engineering 40 year old designs no longer being manufactured and no longer covered by patents is not really "stealing."

It is stealing if you don't give attribution.

[Byron Dickens]

The law does not agree with you.

[RexRed]

4 hours ago, bdickens said:

The law does not agree with you.

Attribution is actually part of international copyright and patent law... but a small group of open source designers are not going to go after a company like Behringer.

And Behringer banked on that fact.

A company with resources like Behringer should not be stealing opens source designs without at least giving credit to the many opens source designers who freely devoted their time to the project.

So you are incorrect, yes, the law does agree with me but who has the money to pay the lawyers?

Patents usually last 21 years (correction).

I happen to know copyright law...

I work with companies like SMG and WMG... on nearly a daily basis dealing with copyright issues. 

I have written over 600 letters to the largest music companies in the world concerning copyright matters.

I know what attribution means.

Attribution means that you have to somewhere on the packaging or in the manual give credit for the designs to the open source people, sometimes it even entails listing their names and the organization they all work under and even websites and social networks where they can be contacted. That is what an honest person does.

Otherwise it is stealing/piracy...

Okay?

Edited September 18, 2021 by RexRed

[Byron Dickens]

That's pretty impressive and all but copyrights and patents are two very different things.

[RexRed]

23 minutes ago, bdickens said:

That's pretty impressive and all but copyrights and patents are two very different things.

Copyright and patents work under the same principles as does open source and attribution laws.

I bought my first version of Cakewalk for MS DOS many years ago, then i purchased Cakewalk on up on through the shiny CD disk of Cakewalk 6.

Then the warez sites came and it became easy to just find a good torrent for Cakewalk and not pay at all for it.

This hurt the company immensely.

Sonar X1 and X2 were pirated like crazy.

Then came Platinum and I decided to come clean on everything.

I paid over nearly 500 for Platinum and also bought the lifetime updates.

Then I came clean on Native Instruments and bought their Collectors Edition version.

And I own all of my waves plugins.

Izotope and Fab Filter.

I do not use any plugins or programs that I do not own. I have invested tens of thousands of dollars into supporting instrument and sample makers. 

And if i use a sound effect even an ambulance horn, wind, a swell or a bell that requires attribution I give attribution and note it wherever possible who and where the samples came from.

I am a little guy living off a meager income, not a billion dollar company and if I can pay for "all" of my stuff and give attribution wherever necessary contact major corporations and ask for fair use permission, so can Behringer.

Then I notice this posted by a tech rep "Uli" from Behringer on another online forum and I copied and I am pasting it here.

Hi Ralph, thank you for your comment. Since I have been tagged here, please allow me to respond.
Synth clones have been around for decades, both as hardware and software versions. Why should we not be allowed to enter the market?
All these analog circuitries are free for anyone to use as none of them are patented anymore. Unfortunately your understanding about “open source” for hardware is incorrect. There is no such license for hardware. How many companies use the Ladder filter?
We do understand that we are a fierce competitor as for many decades we have invested in innovation related to efficiency and factory automation.
Our loyalty belongs to our customers and our goal is to make products as affordable as possible.
However I strongly believe there will always be a market for boutique makers and we both can coexist as the customer base is different. Today, we’re collaborating with many developers from smaller companies who either join us as employees (Nashijima San from Korg, Luigi Scarano from Fingersonic) or as collaboration partners like Rob Keeble from AMSynth and many more.
We invite everyone to join forces in our synth mission. Uli

Comment:

Copyrights span a century not decades.

Yes you can enter the market as long as you give attribution like everyone else.
This line is what struck me,

"Our loyalty belongs to our customers and our goal is to make products as affordable as possible."

Comment:
Really? Or does your loyalty belong to your "partners" and your shareholders?

I will spread this issue far and wide until I get a signal flow diagram for this toaster oven they sold me.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RexRed

[Byron Dickens]

Look, I don't give a Rattus norvegicus' gluteus maximus if you dislike Behringer for some reason but it really irritates me when I see people throwing around wild accusations and misinformation when they don't know what the hell they're talking about:

 

"History of Changes to Patent Terms  The term of the patent has been changed by Congress a number of times since 1790:      Initially, under the 1790 Patent Act the term could not exceed 14 years.     In 1836, Congress passed the Patent Act (5. Stat 117, 119, 5) which amended the statute to provide a term that could last for 21 years by providing for a 7 year extension from and after the expiration of the first term.     In 1861, Congress again changed the term to 17 years with no extension.     In 1994 the US signed the Uruguay Round Agreements Act changed the date from which the term was measured. Because the term was measured from the filing date of the application and not the grant date of the patent, Congress amended 35 U.S.C. § 154 to provide for applications filed after June 7, 1995 that the term of a patent begins on the date that the patent issues and ends on the date that is twenty years from the date on which the application was filed in the U.S. or, if, the application contained a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under 35 USC 120, 121 or 365(c), twenty years from the filing date of the earliest of such application. In addition, 35 U.S.C. 154 was amended to provide term extension if the original patent was delayed due to secrecy orders, interferences, or appellate review periods.     In 1999, Congress amended 35 U.S.C. § 154 to provide for additional patent term if the USPTO failed to meet certain statutory deadlines that guarantee prompt patent and trademark office responses and guarantee no more than a 3 year application pendency. Applications filed after May 28, 2000 became subject to the changes to 35 USC 154(b).     On December 18, 2012, the Patent Law Treaties Implementation Act of 2012 (PLTIA) was signed into law. The PLTIA among other things set forth provisions implementing the 1999 Geneva Act of the Hague Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Industrial Designs ("Hague Agreement"). These provisions (Title I of the PLTIA) take effect on May 13, 2015.  Per this agreement,  U.S. design patents resulting from applications filed on or after May 13, 2015 will have a 15 year term from issuance.  Design applications filed before May 13, 2015 will continue to have a 14 year term from issuance."

https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator

I don't know where in the world you got that 50 - 90 year figure but that's not true of copyrights either. Not in the US at any rate.

 

You are certainly free to think whatever you want but the law doesn't care what you think. The courts disagree with you. The courts disagree with you because the law disagrees with you.  Behringer has been sued multiple times. And won.

Edited September 18, 2021 by bdickens

[RexRed]

3 hours ago, bdickens said:

Look, I don't give a Rattus norvegicus' gluteus maximus if you dislike Behringer for some reason but it really irritates me when I see people throwing around wild accusations and misinformation when they don't know what the hell they're talking about:

 

"History of Changes to Patent Terms  The term of the patent has been changed by Congress a number of times since 1790:      Initially, under the 1790 Patent Act the term could not exceed 14 years.     In 1836, Congress passed the Patent Act (5. Stat 117, 119, 5) which amended the statute to provide a term that could last for 21 years by providing for a 7 year extension from and after the expiration of the first term.     In 1861, Congress again changed the term to 17 years with no extension.     In 1994 the US signed the Uruguay Round Agreements Act changed the date from which the term was measured. Because the term was measured from the filing date of the application and not the grant date of the patent, Congress amended 35 U.S.C. § 154 to provide for applications filed after June 7, 1995 that the term of a patent begins on the date that the patent issues and ends on the date that is twenty years from the date on which the application was filed in the U.S. or, if, the application contained a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under 35 USC 120, 121 or 365(c), twenty years from the filing date of the earliest of such application. In addition, 35 U.S.C. 154 was amended to provide term extension if the original patent was delayed due to secrecy orders, interferences, or appellate review periods.     In 1999, Congress amended 35 U.S.C. § 154 to provide for additional patent term if the USPTO failed to meet certain statutory deadlines that guarantee prompt patent and trademark office responses and guarantee no more than a 3 year application pendency. Applications filed after May 28, 2000 became subject to the changes to 35 USC 154(b).     On December 18, 2012, the Patent Law Treaties Implementation Act of 2012 (PLTIA) was signed into law. The PLTIA among other things set forth provisions implementing the 1999 Geneva Act of the Hague Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Industrial Designs ("Hague Agreement"). These provisions (Title I of the PLTIA) take effect on May 13, 2015.  Per this agreement,  U.S. design patents resulting from applications filed on or after May 13, 2015 will have a 15 year term from issuance.  Design applications filed before May 13, 2015 will continue to have a 14 year term from issuance."

https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator

I don't know where in the world you got that 50 - 90 year figure but that's not true of copyrights either. Not in the US at any rate.

 

You are certainly free to think whatever you want but the law doesn't care what you think. The courts disagree with you. The courts disagree with you because the law disagrees with you.  Behringer has been sued multiple times. And won.

I do not give a Rattus norvegicus' gluteus maximus  if you have thing for Berhinger also. It is no epidermis off my pecans.... 

Patents last 21 years ... copyrights last, as a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. That is actually over a hundred years that copyrights last.

I was talking about patents AND copyrights which as I said both have similar laws like "fair use" and attribution attached to them.

Behringer sued by Roland/Boss
March 1, 2005

Leading electronic musical instrument and equipment manufacturer Roland Corporation has sued Behringer International GmbH and its subsidiaries to enforce Rolands trade dress, trademark, and other intellectual property rights in and to the famous guitar effects pedals manufactured, distributed and sold by Rolands division, BOSS, as well as other Roland products.

BOSS has long been an industry leader in the design and manufacture of guitar effects pedals, recording equipment and other musical instrument accessories. In addition to their unparalleled sound, the BOSS pedals feature a unique combination of aesthetic design elements which have served to establish BOSS as an instantly-recognizable brand and to distinguish BOSS pedals from pedals manufactured by others.

The Complaint, filed in the United States District Court for the Central District of California, alleges that at the January, 2005 NAMM industry trade show, Behringer announced the launch of a line of guitar effects pedals which replicate the distinctive design features of the BOSS pedals with such painstaking detail that the Behringer pedals are nearly indistinguishable from the BOSS pedals.

Roland contends that this is no coincidence, and that the overall look and feel of the Behringer pedals is intentionally designed to confuse consumers as to the origin, sponsorship or affiliation of the Behringer Pedals, and to capitalize and profit from Rolands success, its impeccable reputation and the goodwill that it has developed over years of hard work.

The Complaint alleges that in an effort to gain industry acceptance of the cloned pedals, Behringer falsely assured industry retailers that the Behringer line of pedals was approved and endorsed by Roland.

Dennis Houlihan, President of Roland Corporation U.S. commented: “Imitation is not flattery, and is far from sincere, when the subject is Rolands valuable trade dress. Roland has expended monumental effort and substantial amounts to create and promote the design elements of its BOSS line of guitar effects pedals.

Behringers replication of the famous BOSS trade dress has caused extensive damage to Roland and its reputation, and Behringers false claim that Roland has endorsed Behringers unadulterated infringement is unconscionable.”

 

Comment and then there is this:

Behringer tried to sue Dave Smith Instruments and 20 forum users for libel

The budget gear company filed a suit last year for what it claimed were “false, defamatory, and libelous” statements made on the Gearslutz forum.

Music Group – the umbrella company that owns budget gear specialist Behringer, speaker brand Tannoy and several other music tech brands – last year sued synth company Dave Smith Instruments together with 20 anonymous Gearslutz forum users for libel and product disparagement and lost, according to a report at CDM.

According to filings from the San Francisco County Superior Court examined by CDM, Music Group launched the suit against DSI after one of its engineers described its CT100 cable tester as a “blatant copy” of a similar 6-in-1 testing product made by Ebtech in a 2017 thread on the Gearslutz forum.

A further 20 anonymous forum users were added as defendants in the $250,000 suit for making “false, defamatory, and libelous” statements, ranging from general complaints about Behringer ‘copying’ other products or using business practices described by one poster as “underhanded”.

The suit – which was filed in June 2017 – was rejected by the court, who ruled that the lawsuit was a ‘strategic lawsuit against public participation’ (SLAPP) intended to censor Behringer’s critics by burdening them with the cost of a hefty legal defense.

The court ruled that “all of Music Group’s claims against it arise from activity protected by the anti-SLAPP statute, because all of the claims are based on statements that were made in a public forum on an issue of public interest.”

Although DSI got the case dismissed, the company is reportedly still seeking to recoup over $100,000 in legal costs from Music Group.

Behringer, which recently released its own version of Moog’s classic Model D synth, has doubled down on its strategy of cloning vintage synths over the past few months, showing off replicas of the Sequential Circuits Pro-One, Roland TR-808 drum machine and ARP Odyssey at this year’s Superbooth show.

Last week, CDM reported that Music Group was considering legal action against Chinese  gear news site Midifan after it called Behringer a ‘copycat’ and ‘shameless’ for its synth cloning practices.

 

Comment:

Creating their own unique line of foot pedals must have been simply too hard.

and

It seems the "false, defamatory, and libelous” statements made on the Gearslutz forum were, TRUE...

Here are companies who innovate and make their "own" synths...

REAL synth enthusiasts...

https://www.vengeance-sound.com/plugins.php

https://www.uvi.net/falcon.html

https://refx.com/nexus/

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by RexRed