Starship Krupa Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 8 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said: FWIW, I don't think the "Free" upgrade to Win10 was an altruistic move by Microsoft. Of course not. Microsoft exists to make money, and everything they do is to that end And I hope nobody thinks that I believe that BandLab's licensing model arises from altruism. The company BandLab exists to make money, and everything they do will be to that end. Meng as an individual may be a guy with altruistic principles, but that's not what corporations do. The concept that I have been trying to hammer is that there are legitimate paths to making money that are not directly "I make a thing and you hand me money for getting to own it or use it or experience it." Even in what we do, it's been this way for a long time, at least at the semi-pro level. Bands can lose money on the door, but make money on selling merchandise, or lose money on recording and printing CD's, but make a pile on touring and merchandise, or break even on printing t-shirts but make money on downloading songs or whatever. Printing fliers never made money, but we did it because punk bands HAD to have a flier for every gig. Kids collected them. One activity loses money, but promotes and props up another that makes money. It shouldn't be so difficult for people to get that this might also be the case in the business of online social media marketing and associated apps. BandLab had existing freeware DAW's when they acquired the IP from the former Cakewalk company. One for iOS and one for Android. Or maybe that was one, for two different platforms, whatever. And the one that runs in Google Chrome browser. Cakewalk was just adding another. Maybe they'll get one for Macintosh OSX at some point. When we talk about Cakewalk in the context of BandLab's software business, it's really "Cakewalk and the other BandLab DAW's," because they were already a software company. If we want to know how good they are, we should be checking the reviews for their other DAW's in the iOS App Store and Google Play Store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 On 2/3/2019 at 2:33 AM, marled said: Although there is some truth in it, very blue-eyed and optimistic, Starship Krupa! I like freeware, too. There is some freeware on the net that is quite better than paid "shrinkwrap" (and CbB is one of the pearls), but on the other hand there is also a lot of crap out there! But that is also true for paid software. Sometimes I feel that software companies invest more in advertising and promises than in proper development! Someone once affectionately (I hope) described me as "one of those annoying 'glass half-full' people." Like that guy in your avatar pic, it's hard-won. And I can usually back it up with examples and facts. Just stating what is possible if it goes right. Anything can go wrong. Put a bad manager in the mix, an untalented programmer or two, I've seen plenty of promising products die sad deaths. I was at Macromedia when they killed Deck. ? Yes, one of the early, very promising DAW's, I was firsthand witness to its downfall. Freeware is fun, but requires sifting through, vetting. Bedroom Producers Blog is great at that. That's where I learned that Cakewalk had gone freebie. Maybe I'll start a thread in the Coffee House for "other happening freeware." It's so easy to wind up with 30 compressors and 25 EQ's when one should really focus on getting to know maybe 5 of each, if that many. If somebody said to me "you can't get a top-quality mix using all freeware plug-ins" I'd say, "perhaps that's true in your case." OrilRiver reverb, Unlimited limiter, Reaplugs collection, Dead Duck FX, there are some fine things out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoods Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 touch wood it doesn't happen but if Bandlab jettisons Cakewalk has Meng indicated the program will no longer be required to phone home every 6 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 8 hours ago, Notes_Norton said: Perpetual growth is the big problem with corporations. Indeed. Another reason I bailed on the commercial software biz. Every company wanted to "go public." When I left, I swore that I never wanted to work for another publicly traded company again. As soon as the company became publicly traded, it stopped being about selling our product and started being about putting on a shadow play for analysts. You and I agree on many points about economics, Notes. (I want to call myself "Rests") Anyway, I'm enthusiastic and optimistic about Bandlab's experiment. I can envision their collaboration platform becoming popular on a certain scale, and I can see many ways that Cakewalk will fit into it. It's no mystery to me how it could all work, and it'll be pretty neat if it does. If it fizzles, and development stops, I'll be left with this great DAW software and will have to rely the people who own it to continue the free subscription or be kind enough to release a version with a perpetual key. For the value I'm getting now, it all seems quite worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 hours ago, backwoods said: touch wood it doesn't happen but if Bandlab jettisons Cakewalk has Meng indicated the program will no longer be required to phone home every 6 months? Cakewalk's future looks as good as any. On the plus side is that Cakewalk doesn't have to keep increasing sales revenue every quarter to stay alive, and that's a good thing! They even had a big presence at NAMM 2019! I doubt that failure has been considered as an option for Cakewalk, as they are still in ramping up mode. So it would be silly for them to publicly discuss exit plans. As if there is even any obligation for them to do so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch4056 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 On 2/1/2019 at 8:49 AM, Bapu said: At times I feel like a Lost Leader, a forever lost man.? Ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch4056 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 On 2/2/2019 at 11:33 PM, Starship Krupa said: Oh, also we don't have to pay any money for it. That's the correct answer and all that needs to be said. I have paid for versions sonar 4 through Plat I still use them and others. And there are nice people here. DAW software is going to keep changing and unless you save your copies and they are usable on whatever upgrades are coming in technology and the computers we all own - I suppose change is constant and nothing here last forever. I am all for change and progress .. when it's BETTER and not not actually regressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoods Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 hours ago, abacab said: Cakewalk's future looks as good as any. On the plus side is that Cakewalk doesn't have to keep increasing sales revenue every quarter to stay alive, and that's a good thing! They even had a big presence at NAMM 2019! I doubt that failure has been considered as an option for Cakewalk, as they are still in ramping up mode. So it would be silly for them to publicly discuss exit plans. As if there is even any obligation for them to do so. Probably you're right. It's just that I've used cakewalk stuff for about 15 years and in that time they've had 4 owners. People were pretty sanguine about roland and then gibson too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Lee Farrell Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 I have found with advanced multimedia programs there is a free or open source product available that is often superior than most if not all paid options...radical projects by artists not marketers hoping to win over an audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 12 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: Someone once affectionately (I hope) described me as "one of those annoying 'glass half-full' people." Like that guy in your avatar pic, it's hard-won. And I can usually back it up with examples and facts. Okay, now I understand more who you are. "glass half-full" ... But in one thing you are completely wrong! That guy in my avatar picture, he's really a "glass half-empty" one, it's me in 1985. Looks cool, doesn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 16 hours ago, chris.r said: There is some wisdom deep in that statement. I'm just started wondering which one is Cakewalk by BandLab...? The future will show! But one thing is sure, they are not the completely altruistic ones. Otherwise it would not be necessary to create a BandLab account, use their installer (instead of a simple download) and there wouldn't be the need of authorizing Cakewalk! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 In today's economic world, few have the luxury of being 100% altruistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said: In today's economic world, few have the luxury of being 100% altruistic. I am aware that companies are usually not! And that's alright, they have to survive. Altruism is rather the kingdom of individuals and non-profit organisations! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 10 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: <...snip...> If it fizzles, and development stops, I'll be left with this great DAW software and will have to rely the people who own it to continue the free subscription or be kind enough to release a version with a perpetual key. For the value I'm getting now, it all seems quite worth the risk. I started out with Master Tracks Pro, a MIDI sequencer on the Atari/ST computer. Then I followed it to Motorola Macs (Classic II), and finally Windows (I hated DOS and was happy to see Windows). Microsoft bought Passport Designs (the parent company to MTPro) to use the patented technology in Power Point and abandoned the program. This was before Windows 95 because I still have the last Passport copy with 8.3 file names. GVox bought Passport mostly for the Encore notation app and they scooped up MTPro in the process. They introduced a number of bugs, most, but not all have been fixed, and they sold it to a company renamed Passport who was underfunded, went belly-up so now MTPro is orphaned. The non-buggy 8.3 version does not load in Win10 but the slightly buggy one does. IMHO MTPro is the best stand-alone MIDI sequencer in the biz. Great interface, great editing tools, everything available in a mouse click or two (no sub-menus or sub-sub-menus), and the 8.3 version never-ever crashed. Sadly the new version occasional does. Why am I saying all this historic stuff? If Bandlab decides to abandon Cakewalk, it's possible we will be able to use it for many years - until Microsoft changes it's OS making it no longer compatible (like the 8.3 version of MTPro). Sure there will be no new features in orphaned software, but there will be no more bloatware either. Insights and incites by Notes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 18 hours ago, SomeGuy said: Capitalism is all about the consumer. If the people allow companies to exploit them, and their wallets... its their choice. It's actually quite democratic ? We just love making excuses for things and acting like we can't live without Facebook, Twitter... a smartphone... whatever. First world problems. If people would change how they look at these things, and start valuing the money they're slaving for, day after day, it would easily correct itself. I've got to respectfully disagree with your first statement. Capitalism is all about the corporation. It's about making profits so the non-participant stockholders can increase their share value. Now they partially do this by focusing on the customer, because customers are necessary. But the focus is on profits and nothing else. But then, isn't that the reason to be in business? The difference is in a small business, the company doesn't have to grow perpetually to stay in business. But I do agree that we can live without Facebook, Twitter (I do), Google (that too), Smartphone (minimize my apps and permissions because I need the phone for business), and value the money that I'm not slaving for (I'm a professional musician - I make a living by enjoying myself). Capitalism has it's flaws, but so far it's better than the alternatives the world has tried. By pointing out the flaws we can minimize their impact on us, and perhaps someday someone will be able to improve it. Insights and incites by Notes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 9 hours ago, backwoods said: Probably you're right. It's just that I've used cakewalk stuff for about 15 years and in that time they've had 4 owners. People were pretty sanguine about roland and then gibson too! Agree that Cakewalk has probably struggled with the for-profit model, even as a great program. A lot of competition in a saturated market, ever smaller slices of the pie. But as a free lure to bring folks into the Meng dynasty, who knows? New game in town! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) On 2/3/2019 at 5:02 PM, Larry Jones said: @synkrotron and @Starship Krupa - Good to read your lengthy and thoughtful exchange. I feel I know you both now -- at least more than I did. And intelligent points from both of you. My take: Despite Meng's vision and Noel's and the Bakers' dedication, a free product might not be sustainable in the long run, and if we are going to learn anything as complex as a full-featured multitrack digital recording, mixing and mastering program, we want it to be around and supported for a long time (plus we all got burned in November 2017). So it's not surprising that some of us want to understand what the prospects are, although I don't think it's quite fair to look for assurances. This is life, after all. Shit happens. For this reason I am happily using CbB and rooting for its continued success, but remaining poised to jump over to one of two other DAWs if anything goes wrong here in Cakeland. PS: Andy, you and I commented on each others music in the old Songs forum. Your stuff is foreign to an old rocker like me, but now that I've read all this from you I am going back and listening again. Diggin' it. Sonar X3 is 5 years old and I could easily continue making music with it and still consider it to be better than most DAWs on the market. Would I miss some of the tweaks and updates that have been made to the platform since then? Of course, but it also goes to show the program can and will stay relevant for a long time. Off-Line installs and the lack of need for authorization would be welcome additions to open the door to more users. Does my guitar cease to work after 5 years? Nope, I can still make music with it. The DAW is no different even if development stopped, the only question is compatibility and the fact that 10 year old versions of Sonar still work goes to show Windows and Sonar seem to work pretty well with each other. Edited February 5, 2019 by Brian Walton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Frankly, I'm much more concerned that Microsoft and Apple will be what eventually scuttles our DAWs. Microsoft wants to go more in a "services," cloud-based direction, because so far the shift has been very successful for them. It's possible that software companies will accommodate this trend by making more cloud-based programs, with an eye toward collaboration and a subscription-based model. If so, then whether by accident or design, BandLab would be in a better position than most to ride this trend. As to Apple, the iPhone business is flat, and although there are promises of a new desktop this year, details are vague. And if Apple really is going to ditch Intel chips for their own, I don't see any way they can ramp up to Intel's level of silicon wizardry before the end of the year. I can see this happening for their mobile and other I-devices, but not for a desktop capable of doing a credible job with a program like Final Cut Pro X. I wrote an article about this for Pro Sound News if you want to see more thoughts on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Jones Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said: Microsoft wants to go more in a "services," cloud-based direction, because so far the shift has been very successful for them. It's possible that software companies will accommodate this trend by making more cloud-based programs, with an eye toward collaboration and a subscription-based model. If such a brave new world takes shape, geeks like me (and probably you, @Craig Anderton), will move to applications like Reaper, and there will probably be more of them in a future environment in which the "majors" are trying to tether their customers to subscriptions. As you know from the old forum, we don't like no steenking subscriptions... Edited February 5, 2019 by Larry Jones punctuation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstrEd Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, Larry Jones said: If such a brave new world takes shape, geeks like me (and probably you, @Craig Anderton), will move to applications like Reaper, and there will probably be more of them in a future environment in which the "majors" are trying to tether their customers to subscriptions. As you know from the old forum, we don't like no steenking subscriptions... I have to agree. I would seriously go in the direction of Reaper myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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