Is freewill a hoax?

[craigb]

17 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Until a car slams into you or your head explodes from brain stroke or you are raped or stabbed or some other life changing event occurs to you that you had no choice or control over whatsoever.

There is no free will, and you wouldn't want it even if it was possible for humans to achieve it, which it is not.

Humans are the most indoctrinated species that has ever breathed life on this planet. From the moment you are spat out of mummy's tummy, the brainwashing begins and doesn't stop until you die and I'm pretty sure you don't get any say in that either.

 

 

I'm going to go with yes.  And no.

Yes - I am discovering that the brainwashing as well as evolutionary programming (in your DNA and usually intended to be in your best interest), actually starts up to six generations before you are even conceived!  Just a few weeks ago I was reading about this (Here's one of many articles about it).

No - I have also known that we have the ability to alter our realities (I'm just learning about this, but have already had some minor success).  We literally can create events that support our view of reality.  For example, perhaps you've always felt that you are in danger when you drive on the freeway, so much so that it occupies your thoughts and it causes a lot of stress.  Then a car slams into you confirming your fears.  Now, this situation can also be reversed.  There is WAAAAY more to all of this, but there's a ton of interesting information out there!

[ensconced]

6 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Nice! where is this quote from?

 

It's an original

©2020 (Today)

Edited March 14, 2020 by ensconced

[Jerry Gerber]

2 hours ago, Tezza said:

Until a car slams into you or your head explodes from brain stroke or you are raped or stabbed or some other life changing event occurs to you that you had no choice or control over whatsoever.

There is no free will, and you wouldn't want it even if it was possible for humans to achieve it, which it is not.

Humans are the most indoctrinated species that has ever breathed life on this planet. From the moment you are spat out of mummy's tummy, the brainwashing begins and doesn't stop until you die and I'm pretty sure you don't get any say in that either.

 

 

You're confusing the laws of the physical world with the inner laws of consciousness that govern human evolution on a mental, spiritual and emotional level.  You're right in your example that as so long as we are on earth we are subject to accidents and the actions of others that we have no control over.  But that is not the level that I am discussing.  I am talking about inner development--the psychological, moral, intellectual and spiritual levels of life that not only do we have some control over, but it's what allows humans to transcend, at least partly, the physical and material aspects of life.  For example, take attitude.  Have you ever noticed that what happens to us is of less consequence than what we learn from it, and how that experience shapes future decisions and future attitudes?  If a man or woman lives totally, in their mind, in the physical world, then they of course have no free will at all--everything they do or say is governed by genes, hormones, impulses, social regulations and mores, other people's approval or disapproval.   The source of all real science, art, philosophy, and religion is the part of us that is governed by higher functions such as creativity, the capacity to love and be loved, to care for others, to sacrifice one's ego and selfishness for something bigger than the self. 

I don't think you actually believe that you personally have no free will, when in fact you do have some free will (whether you take responsibility for it is another matter).   Perhaps you're stuck in attitudes that you know don't work very well for you but you won't let them go because you are afraid.   I've never met you so I really cannot say.  I hope one day you actually do realize you have some say in life and that you exercise your free will.  Otherwise you might as well have been born a bear or a leopard or a salamander.  You're human,  so get used to the fact that there are unresolvable contradictions and paradoxes in every human being.  Light and darkness, to varying degrees exists in everyone.  Maturity is about integrating and coming to conscious terms with what and who you are.  Good luck!

Edited March 14, 2020 by jsg

[Toddskins]

3 hours ago, Tezza said:

Humans are the most indoctrinated species that has ever breathed life on this planet. From the moment you are spat out of mummy's tummy, the brainwashing begins and doesn't stop until you die and I'm pretty sure you don't get any say in that either.

You mean mathematics brainwashing?  Maybe "Don't touch that hot stove?" Or the brainwashing that we should say "thank you" when given a gift?  Or maybe the brainwashing of being polite to our elders.  Or is it the brainwashing about taking a bath/shower so that we do not smell bad and offend others?  Maybe the brainwashing that we should not steal, or murder?

Are those the brain washings to which you refer?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Toddskins

[Tezza]

4 hours ago, jsg said:

You're confusing the laws of the physical world with the inner laws of consciousness that govern human evolution on a mental, spiritual and emotional level.  You're right in your example that as so long as we are on earth we are subject to accidents and the actions of others that we have no control over.  But that is not the level that I am discussing.  I am talking about inner development--the psychological, moral, intellectual and spiritual levels of life that not only do we have some control over, but it's what allows humans to transcend, at least partly, the physical and material aspects of life.  For example, take attitude.  Have you ever noticed that what happens to us is of less consequence than what we learn from it, and how that experience shapes future decisions and future attitudes?  If a man or woman lives totally, in their mind, in the physical world, then they of course have no free will at all--everything they do or say is governed by genes, hormones, impulses, social regulations and mores, other people's approval or disapproval.   The source of all real science, art, philosophy, and religion is the part of us that is governed by higher functions such as creativity, the capacity to love and be loved, to care for others, to sacrifice one's ego and selfishness for something bigger than the self. 

I don't think you actually believe that you personally have no free will, when in fact you do have some free will (whether you take responsibility for it is another matter).   Perhaps you're stuck in attitudes that you know don't work very well for you but you won't let them go because you are afraid.   I've never met you so I really cannot say.  I hope one day you actually do realize you have some say in life and that you exercise your free will.  Otherwise you might as well have been born a bear or a leopard or a salamander.  You're human,  so get used to the fact that there are unresolvable contradictions and paradoxes in every human being.  Light and darkness, to varying degrees exists in everyone.  Maturity is about integrating and coming to conscious terms with what and who you are.  Good luck!

That all falls apart if you get mental illness or have brain damage, what happens to the inner laws of consciousness then, or a massive mortgage/unplanned debts due to financial collapse not your fault or foreseen or kids etc. Your utopian view of the world as packed full of perfectly healthy, fully functioning human beings bathing in freedom without strings isn't realistic, i would say naive. Sounds like some religious or psychology course. "Some free will" isn't free will. It sounds to me like you don't really know what true free will is, just free will within boundaries which is typical of school/religious and psychological teachings. Follow the rules of the society in which you live and exercise your "free will" within those rules. That's not true free will and for many people who may not fit into the social rules in which they are forced to live it can be hell on earth. What about people who are gay or whose skin or culture is different to those around them or whom have a disability etc You seem to cast off quite extreme life defining conditions and situations as though they are meaningless, apparently, the real physical world doesn't matter to you.

The source of all real science, art, philosophy, and religion is the part of us that is governed by higher functions such as creativity, the capacity to love and be loved, to care for others, to sacrifice one's ego and selfishness for something bigger than the self. 

Humans cannot surpass their ego anymore than they can pull their brains out of their head and continue to walk around. What about narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths etc they are not capable at all of what you describe here. Science comes from statistical analysis and serendipity, neither of which comes from the higher self. Art comes from ego and insanity mixed together in the paint pot. Philosophy comes from extreme internalization of neurological thought processes. Religion is just "old government" run pretty much the same as new secular government, a bunch of narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths who just want power over others and claim they represent an even higher power. Even when humans supposedly sacrifice their ego to a higher spiritual power, all they are really doing is removing from themselves the burden of decision making and siding with an all powerful being that unsurprisingly, makes them feel even more powerful.

There are levels of egotistical behavior but it's just levels.

[Tezza]

4 hours ago, Toddskins said:

You mean mathematics brainwashing?  Maybe "Don't touch that hot stove?" Or the brainwashing that we should say "thank you" when given a gift?  Or maybe the brainwashing of being polite to our elders.  Or is it the brainwashing about taking a bath/shower so that we do not smell bad and offend others?  Maybe the brainwashing that we should not steal, or murder?

Are those the brain washings to which you refer?

See above post.

[craigb]

Some good stuff up there!

Note that not all "brainwashing" (or, as I prefer, subliminal programming) is all bad.  For example, as Toddskins alluded to, a Mother's attempts to keep her children safe and to teach them how to work best in a community (another survival mechanism actually).  Unfortunately, some elements get included with the same intensity as what we currently define as the "good stuff."  An interesting side-note, a tenet of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) is that any event is just an event.  Only we give it a good or bad weighting and, needless to say, these designations are evolutionary and community based.  Perhaps many years ago, instilling the ability to quickly kill an outsider was a needed survival mechanism of the tribe, however that's not exactly the best approach now.

[Jesse Screed]

10 hours ago, jsg said:

To develop real will takes a lot of work on the the self.  It take takes emotional clarity, ever-increasing sincerity with one's self, good habits, including diet, exercise and mental habits.  It also takes integrity, choosing not to violate your deepest values and working to overcome the all-too-human propensities toward secrecy, hypocrisy and insincerity.  Then the possibility of real will becomes available.   There is no teacher like your own life experience.  If you really humble yourself and devote yourself to learning truth through your own  experience, you will discover more of what is called free-will, and it may produce subtle, positive changes in your personality.  In other words you become a  better version of who you are as a unique person.

one person's poison is another person's cure.

 

8 hours ago, craigb said:

No - I have also known that we have the ability to alter our realities (I'm just learning about this, but have already had some minor success).  We literally can create events that support our view of reality. 

Epigenesis?  Now there is another can of worms.

 

1 hour ago, Tezza said:

Humans cannot surpass their ego anymore than they can pull their brains out of their head and continue to walk around.

Carl Jung would agree?

9 hours ago, Tezza said:

Humans are the most indoctrinated species that has ever breathed life on this planet. From the moment you are spat out of mummy's tummy, the brainwashing begins and doesn't stop until you die and I'm pretty sure you don't get any say in that either

That's quite definitive.  My parents are still wondering why the indoctrination didn't stick, my teachers too, but I used to put catsup on my fried eggs just to be weird.

[bayoubill]

FEARLESS LEADER has all the answers!

His solutions are perfect 

His word is, or will be, LAW

He      is the answer 

SUBMIT!

Edited March 14, 2020 by bayoubill

[Jerry Gerber]

5 hours ago, Tezza said:

That all falls apart if you get mental illness or have brain damage, what happens to the inner laws of consciousness then, or a massive mortgage/unplanned debts due to financial collapse not your fault or foreseen or kids etc. Your utopian view of the world as packed full of perfectly healthy, fully functioning human beings bathing in freedom without strings isn't realistic, i would say naive. Sounds like some religious or psychology course. "Some free will" isn't free will. It sounds to me like you don't really know what true free will is, just free will within boundaries which is typical of school/religious and psychological teachings. Follow the rules of the society in which you live and exercise your "free will" within those rules. That's not true free will and for many people who may not fit into the social rules in which they are forced to live it can be hell on earth. What about people who are gay or whose skin or culture is different to those around them or whom have a disability etc You seem to cast off quite extreme life defining conditions and situations as though they are meaningless, apparently, the real physical world doesn't matter to you.

The source of all real science, art, philosophy, and religion is the part of us that is governed by higher functions such as creativity, the capacity to love and be loved, to care for others, to sacrifice one's ego and selfishness for something bigger than the self. 

Humans cannot surpass their ego anymore than they can pull their brains out of their head and continue to walk around. What about narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths etc they are not capable at all of what you describe here. Science comes from statistical analysis and serendipity, neither of which comes from the higher self. Art comes from ego and insanity mixed together in the paint pot. Philosophy comes from extreme internalization of neurological thought processes. Religion is just "old government" run pretty much the same as new secular government, a bunch of narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths who just want power over others and claim they represent an even higher power. Even when humans supposedly sacrifice their ego to a higher spiritual power, all they are really doing is removing from themselves the burden of decision making and siding with an all powerful being that unsurprisingly, makes them feel even more powerful.

There are levels of egotistical behavior but it's just levels.

 

"Some free will" isn't free will.

Ah, so you're an absolutist, one either has free will or one does not.  Can you give examples to back up your assertion?  So far you've mentioned narcissists, psychopaths and mentally ill people, but perhaps you haven't noticed, or cared to notice, all of the countless high-functioning, creative, healthy people that are actually contributing something of value to humanity. You twisted my words into something I didn't say and didn't imply.  Your cynicism may serve you when it comes to protecting your sense of vulnerability but as contribution to a discussion it is a complete dead-end.   Your opinion of humanity is so low probably because your opinion of yourself is also low.  There are many outstanding people in this world, people who achieve some level of happiness, success and service to others, contributions to our world that are desperately needed.  It's amazing that you interpret my understanding of free will exactly as the opposite of what i am saying.  

"Religion is just "old government" run pretty much the same as new secular government, a bunch of narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths who just want power over others and claim they represent an even higher power."

Such sweeping over-generalizations are meaningless.  Sounds like your parroting the same stale ideas without differentiating the subtleties and variances that exist not only between religions, but within religions.  

Humans cannot surpass their ego anymore than they can pull their brains out of their head and continue to walk around.

Actually people can, but they first must have an ego to surpass in the first place.  I see selflessness in others and I see people transcending the tendency towards self-centeredness all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by jsg

[Tezza]

Yes, I guess my view is probably tempered by the fact that I have spent many years working in Rehab so I have seen the dregs day in day out. You seem to want to confuse issues by constantly exploding things you don't agree with into many issues rather than just accepting that others may not agree with your statements and view of the world. Peoples views of the world cannot be dismissed as coming just from themselves, their psychological makeup, but rather a combination of many things including life experience, education, family upbringing etc. It does not automatically follow that someone who has a dim view of humanity must themselves be psychologically faulty in some way. This is just societal conditioning at work. Those who do not see the mainstream view as dictated by television must be sick.

I am not an absolutist, as I said, there are levels of egoistic behavior , you cannot separate out why people do things, good people and bad people. Most new organizations spring up because an individual narcissist or someone with narcissistic intent creates them. It's the ego and/or narcissistic intent that creates the organization and in fact, may even be required to trample over the naysayers and knockers that are never in short supply. Once established though, the organization may essentially be a "good" organization and the creator may mature with the organization towards a less ego dominated state or not. Complete arseholes can and very often do, end up creating something good.

We all have narcissistic, psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies at different times in our life, some more than others. It's more of a grey scale. It's only the extremes that stick consistently that are "diagnosed" as mental illness.

Peoples level of insight varies considerably, that is, their ability to know why they do the things they do, the underpinning motivations, self realization. You may have your view of the world as a utopian garden of eden adorned by selfless humans because that has been your experience, I would think it would be a sheltered one. Or it may be that it is just a delusion you have created for yourself so you can feel good about the world and your place in it. You see what you want to see. You might not even be aware you have created this delusion.

How does an individuals level of insight feature in "free will". People running around convinced they are doing or believing things for certain reasons when in fact, they are doing or believing things for completely different reasons that are hidden from them. And who is to judge which is which, and who is really pulling the strings....

 

 

 

 

 

[David Sprouse]

14 hours ago, Toddskins said:

You mean mathematics brainwashing?  Maybe "Don't touch that hot stove?" Or the brainwashing that we should say "thank you" when given a gift?  Or maybe the brainwashing of being polite to our elders.  Or is it the brainwashing about taking a bath/shower so that we do not smell bad and offend others?  Maybe the brainwashing that we should not steal, or murder?

Are those the brain washings to which you refer?

I've been brainwashed by logic.

[Jesse Screed]

5 hours ago, jsg said:

 

"Some free will" isn't free will.

Ah, so you're an absolutist, one either has free will or one does not.  Can you give examples to back up your assertion?  So far you've mentioned narcissists, psychopaths and mentally ill people, but perhaps you haven't noticed, or cared to notice, all of the countless high-functioning, creative, healthy people that are actually contributing something of value to humanity. You twisted my words into something I didn't say and didn't imply.  Your cynicism may serve you when it comes to protecting your sense of vulnerability but as contribution to a discussion it is a complete dead-end.   Your opinion of humanity is so low probably because your opinion of yourself is also low.  There are many outstanding people in this world, people who achieve some level of happiness, success and service to others, contributions to our world that are desperately needed.  It's amazing that you interpret my understanding of free will exactly as the opposite of what i am saying.  

"Religion is just "old government" run pretty much the same as new secular government, a bunch of narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths who just want power over others and claim they represent an even higher power."

Such sweeping over-generalizations are meaningless.  Sounds like your parroting the same stale ideas without differentiating the subtleties and variances that exist not only between religions, but within religions.  

Humans cannot surpass their ego anymore than they can pull their brains out of their head and continue to walk around.

Actually people can, but they first must have an ego to surpass in the first place.  I see selflessness in others and I see people transcending the tendency towards self-centeredness all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm so glad you didn't back away.

Without diverse ideas we will never come to an understanding.

The key to communication is learning to speak other people's language.

[Jesse Screed]

1 hour ago, Tezza said:

How does an individuals level of insight feature in "free will". People running around convinced they are doing or believing things for certain reasons when in fact, they are doing or believing things for completely different reasons that are hidden from them. And who is to judge which is which, and who is really pulling the strings....

'm wondering if this is a two way street?

"believing things for completely different reasons that are hidden from them"

What is hidden from you?  Who is the Arbiter?

[Jesse Screed]

1 hour ago, David Sprouse said:

I've been brainwashed by logic.

Where is the proof?

Easy to say, but why?

[DeeringAmps]

[SteveStrummerUK]

A timely haiku ...

 

 

The free will of a

Mod will soon close down this fred

In before the lock

[craigb]

55 minutes ago, Jesse Screed said:

I'm so glad you didn't back away.

Without diverse ideas we will never come to an understanding.

The key to communication is learning to speak other people's language.

¡Si! 

[craigb]

33 minutes ago, SteveStrummerUK said:

A timely haiku ...

 

 

The free will of a

Mod will soon close down this fred

In before the lock

¡Si también!  ?

[Starise]

On 3/14/2020 at 1:32 AM, Tezza said:

Until a car slams into you or your head explodes from brain stroke or you are raped or stabbed or some other life changing event occurs to you that you had no choice or control over whatsoever.

There is no free will, and you wouldn't want it even if it was possible for humans to achieve it, which it is not.

Humans are the most indoctrinated species that has ever breathed life on this planet. From the moment you are spat out of mummy's tummy, the brainwashing begins and doesn't stop until you die and I'm pretty sure you don't get any say in that either.

 

 

This seems as if you are referring to control not free will. I could be wrong. How do you classify indoctrination? Training for adulthood is not indoctrination.