PavlovsCat

I was an obsessive guitar sample library user going back to the 80s with my Roland U20 with electric guitar samples that also happens to have expertise in marketing and branding and gave both paid and free consulting advice to a bunch of sample and plugin developers. I've hung out with Ben from Camel Audio in Scotland, met Greg in Chicago (where I live) -- I love the stuff these guys make, just brilliant and through the course of being a fan of their work, I've offered some free advice. I have given advice to a bunch of guitar sample library developers and even turned down free libraries in exchange -- I've never told that story. Years ago a guitar sample library developer -- who I still stay in touch with -- whose libraries I use got mad at me on this forum because someone asked for advice on guitar sample libraries and I gave my opinion on all of them and stated that no one was at the level Greg was at with Orange Tree Samples. So, this other developer of sample libraries, who I gave free advice to and was a paying customer of (something I didn't want to share at the time because I didn't want other developers coming to me for free advice; because this was a really small developer. I turned him down when he offered to pay me; in fact, I did accept a gift from him; when my daughter was born he gave me a library as a gift), but on the old Cakewalk forum, he told me it was wrong for me to share my opinion when I had consulted to him (for free!). So yeah, I don't do that anymore (give free consulting, I have kids to support who want to go to college). But Greg was and is brilliant. He brought guitar and bass sample libraries to the next level. That's the idea behind Evolution -- which I came up with the name for because I personally found the libraries he was making were (and still are) an evolution from what had been. Heck, I know of two developers I didn't consult to, but had talked to a few times that both told me that they reverse engineered Greg's libraries and one of them is now one of the more popular guitar sample developers (I will withhold the name because I don't enjoy drama and if you go back several years ago, a couple of the guitar devs I also consulted to were creating some drama at this very forum -- when I was going by eDrummist, if anyone wants to search! One thing I've always said is that I reserve the right to give my opinion, that I never give that right away). So yeah, over the years, I did paid consulting for Greg, advised on product lines, promotions, the website, branding, trademarks.... And we became friends and I love the guy -- he's seriously one of the best people I've ever met in my life. So, yeah, you can say, I'm incredibly biased and discount everything I write. But after disclosing that, I'd be a terrible shill, because I just shared that I have a friendship with Greg. I do with other developers too, and some I don't even talk about their libraries and yes, I use competitor libraries, like most DAW users. I've consulted to a string sample library developer and anyone can see that I recently picked up 8Dio's stuff and was considering another developer's libraries. I'd be buying other libraries too if I had the budget, but again, I have two kids that want to go to college. Regarding Corey. So every so often, I shoot Greg a text or email suggesting YouTubers or influencers I think he should be getting out product to (like more recently, Simeon). A few years ago I found out about Corey and thought this guy is the real deal -- I just love him. And Greg is as honest as they come. So, I thought Greg would appreciate this too and I was right. But it turned out that Greg was a step ahead of me and not only knew all about Corey, he was already an OTS customer and I'm pretty sure he even did a demo for an OTS library. Although I don't think he ever did a review video at that point (or since). So, yeah, sometimes me telling Greg about something in the music world is like me thinking I can get up a deal post before Larry. It's just not likely!

Right on. It's the people that matter. I agree completely.

Okay, I just checked it out. That's a much more beautiful, pristine library. It reminds me of the piano we had at my mother's house. Very different than the e-instruments library. I can see why you love it. It sounds wonderful.

The dev was on my radar. I mean I think I know a lot of devs, but then I see Larry's posts and I realize I only know a third of what he knows! But still, a third of what Larry knows is pretty good.

I own two of them! I forgot what the one is called -- maybe the modern upright-- but I think the other is the small upright. I agree. They are good. The small upright is my favorite.

The drums are so cheap I am tempted. Do you have them? If so, I'd love to get your thoughts.

I haven't looked at that very closely or I might have wanted two libraries. I am a sucker for upright pianos with character. I'll give it a look near Black Friday 2022! Seriously. I pretty much only buy most of my plugins and libraries around Black Friday.

I have had their upright piano on my mental wish list all year and couldn't pass up this deal. I just installed it, went through the presets and absolutely love it! Less than $40 USD for a detailed KONTAKT upright piano library that has a lot of character. That was a great buy, more than 50 percent off. If you love upright pianos, check this one out.

When Corey came out and was brutally honest about the Sturgis drum library, it impressed the hell out of me. Being on the brand side of things, you're very well aware of how influencers are compensated and, almost always, the dishonesty of their relationship with consumers. Cory is so detailed and brutally honest, he's the antithesis of the norm. I don't know the guy. I never interacted with him, but I respect the heck out of him. I wish there were more like him. But many brands/developers will be afraid to deal with him -- especially if they see his review of the Joey Sturgis drum library. That was epic as were his posts afterwards.

From leading digital marketing for two decades at big brands to starting my own dot com, as I wrote earlier, influencer marketing is really just sales shilling. It's really just the P from the four Ps of marketing (promotion). It's not the stuff of objective reviews and the reality is that these influencers are not very honest or self aware about the bias that getting free product, making money from selling the product via affiliate marketing links and getting kickbacks plays in their objectivity. Again, I wasn't calling Reid a shill. I doubt he even makes much money from affiliate links in these forums. But the reality is, developers give influencers free product and money to promote their products, so calling that stuff reviews is more than a little disingenuous. Influence marketers are peddlers, not legit reviewers. They don't call them influencers (which is influence marketing) because they're objective. It's about the power they have to influence others to buy things.

@Reid RosefeltI'm certainly not calling every affiliate marketer a shill and I am definitely NOT saying or implying you are a shill. I like you and what you do. Let me be very clear. I'm saying that affiliate marketing -- and I've led it at a major brand, been involved in it at numerous brands, wrote on the topic and digital marketing in articles cited by and recommended by Inc, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. -- and influencer marketing has resulted in it being very difficult for a consumer to discern when a review is influenced or not and the degree to which freebies, sales and kickbacks influence a review Back when I did a lot of writing, I even would do book reviews and use affiliate marketing for books. Although I only reviewed 1 in 20 books sent to me. So publicists didn't love me. I had no interest in reviewing poor quality or mediocre books. What the advent of influencer marketing has done has made it virtually impossible for a consumer to discern when someone is honestly reviewing a product or shilling. That doesn't mean everyone using affiliate marketing is shilling. Technically, if you disclose that you are an affiliate marketer -- which is a type of salesperson -- you are not shilling, and I know that you and Simeon disclose that very clearly. I am not accusing either of you of shilling. But there's a ton of it going on, and the reality is, if you're a dev, you give freebies to whoever has enough followers to make it a smart biz decision, and those who have a lot of followers often want money to, and that's almost never disclosed. This is a bigger, and deeper subject than a post permits. But the spirit of reviewers from the days of actual journalism is not carried on by YouTubers who promote products. Granted, I have advised dozens of brands and small devs to use influencers, but as a consumer, I don't generally think they're a good thing. It is an army of product shills. Professionally, yes, I use them, I recommend them, but no, I don't have a great deal of trust in the integrity of people giving reviews to get free product, kickbacks and other benefits for an unbiased review. And funny, while some J-schools have recommended my writing, when I was working for a big news agency, I was on the advertising side, where they're often fighting with the editor to pull negative stories of big advertisers. But influencers have completely destroyed the idea of objective reviews and that has even had a negative impact on traditional news agencies, some of which are now using sponsored, syndicated content that is basically an advertorial. Yeah, it's easily worthy of a book, but I think it's one of the worst things to happen in marketing for consumers. Once again though, that isn't the same as saying that I think that every influencer is shilling. But I think the reality is, there's so much bias that comes with these solopreneurs looking for affiliate money, free product and kickbacks, there is very little objectivity. On a positive note, I found on YouTuber reviewer of sample libraries and VSTs that, IMO, has the kind of credibility of old school reviewers from the journalism world, Cory Pelizzari. I don't know the guy, but man, I'd love to see more like him. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_ANfIulrcJ1LvtZVNFdexg

Exactly. Granted, I totally intended the humor value in my idea, but it's a serious idea too. Nobody has Larry's depth of knowledge of deals. I think Larry doesn't even realize the value of that knowledge. I think what I like even more is that influence marketing has created an army of shills -- people who will say anything for freebies and money. I'm a marketing professional and have been doing the profession and writing about it for decades, but the advent of influencer marketing is not something I think is a good thing for society, for consumers. It's incredibly difficult to discern when you're seeing an honest review and one where someone is motivated financially either by free product or money. Larry has built up a degree of trust with us. Larry is no shill. He's hyper-opinionated and we may disagree strongly with his opinions. But I never doubt that those opinions are sincere, and because of that, I value even opinions that are very different than my own. Another thing Larry does that's telling, he doesn't post affiliate links. A lot of influencers -- read that most -- post affiliate links. It is the ultimate BS / shilling when someone pretends to be objective and then is an affiliate. And that's coming from someone who has ran a major affiliate program. Let's be clear, affiliates are salespeople for the products they're mentioning. There's nothing more to it. So, affiliates are a terrible place to look for objectivity. But since influencer marketing became mainstreamed, a heck of a lot of faux reviewers use affiliate marketing. And the reality is, in my consulting, I've steered brands to affiliates. I LOATHE the ethics of it, but it is a part of how companies promote these days. But it's really been a bad thing for consumers looking to honestly research products and services. Okay, rant over.

@Reid Rosefelt, I think it was last year, when we were just starting to spend a bunch of time indoors due to the pandemic, I was watching a few of your videos -- I must admit, I find you a very interesting person (that's a compliment; I'm sure it can be misinterpreted in some unintended way!) -- after I came across a post of yours with a video imbedded where you talked about accumulating a bunch of sample libraries and plugins to the point where you lose track of what you have and could easily buy the same thing again. That idea inspired me to make these templates in my DAW of all the sample libraries I have of upright pianos, grand pianos, baby grand pianos, cellos, violas, violins, acoustic guitars, acoustic drum kits, celestes, etc. this month -- to help me show some level of restraint during this Black Friday season. It was a pretty valuable experience. Maybe you should repost that video right now and save other folks a lot of money!

Yes, I did. I picked up the 8Dio Deep Solo Cello. I really like it, but I can't help but still think about the Trio Broz Cello from Fluffy Audio. I admit, since I was a kid, I've been in love with the cello. I never played it. I took lessons on piano, organ, drums and guitar and played all of those plus the glockenspiel, harmonica and various percussion. Years ago I was researching solo cellos and I bought 8Dios Intimate Studio Strings, which I really find disappointing and really don't use. But Deep Solo Strings has a lot of articulations and while I've seen some people over at VI Control really don't like the tone of the instrument for solo cello, I really like it. But I think it's pretty different from the Fluffy Audio cello. I was contemplating picking up their Trio Broz viola for $39 USD to find out about the playability and character of that library. How do you like the Spaghetti Western library and what do you think about the developer's scripting and attention to detail? Granted, I'm not interested in that specific library, but I'm curious about the developer's strengths and weaknesses.

Okay, you've caused me to actually stop kidding around and be serious for a moment -- but no more than a moment. Yes, your basic point, is, of course, on the surface, true, it completely misses the value of reviews and critiques which the overwhelming majority of consumers use in the research process today. Yes, the value of anything is subjective. That doesn't invalidate the value of a subject matter expert weighing in with an opinion which can be an incredibly useful input to a buyer. And your statement about BS around sales prices this days unintentionally makes a stronger case for why a subject matter expert in the area of deals can be so valuable. Consider instances where Larry is weighing how good a deal is relative to a developer's or retailer's past sales. The fact is, reviews are used as a guide for all sorts of consumer decision making. We use them when we research consumer goods and services. No one thinks that a review represents someone with our identical background thinking for us, but they can provide insights that a prospective buyer can derive value from. For example, many of us will look at reviews of a restaurant, a movie -- or a sample library or plugin -- before committing to making a purchase decision. Whether or not you enjoy a movie or show, video game, sample library or plugin depends a lot on your personal preferences and history, right? When you go to Rotten Tomatoes, you're probably not generally taking the various critics' reviews as gospel that you will feel identically, but using them as a guide. In fact, this is the very reason that reviews and critics are a huge industry today. And I seriously think that Larry has a value that can be easily and humorously channeled in the way I've described . The ccLarry Dealometer (soon to be trademarked) is like Rotten Tomatoes Tomatometer. It's a guide. It benefits from Larry's extensive knowledge of past sales from developers and retailers. So, on one hand, it let's you know what Larry thinks of the deal relative to past deals from the same vendor. On the other hand, Larry would consider the deal relative to competitors with a similar offering. Yes, it's one person's point of view, but that one person has subject matter expertise on deals -- an extensive knowledge that most of us just don't have the time or interest to amass, but that knowledge has value to us. So Larry's experience and insight on deals, while it is not going to have your subjective opinion of a particular deal, was the perspective of a man with unparalleled knowledge of these kinds of deals. I think that 99.99% of the people that use the deal forum would find value in it.

@cclarryI'm making the ccLarry Dealometer a thing, Larry! But I think you need to trademark it. It could be HUGE. I love the idea that you give a verdict on whether a deal is Larry worthy or not. It must happen!!!

This would be a thumbs down on ccLarry's Dealometer.

@cclarry Just a quick thought. No one in this forum knows deals like you do. It's an undisputed fact. Consequently, reading through your posts in this thread where you stated this dev had a "pretty lame BF sale," I had this little idea, how about a Larry deal rating system? Movie critics have their thumbs up and thumbs down; Rotten Tomatoes has the Tomatometer, I think you should have some kind of deal rating system where you rate if you think a deal is great or not. A Dealometer or Larrymeter. Does anyone here have decent graphic design skills? I can just imagine a little graphic of Larry next to either Dealometer or Larrymeter or Larryometer. Seriously, I think it needs to happen. Is anyone else with me?

I only have a couple of paid libraries from this developer, but everything I have from him is excellent, even the freebies. This is definitely worth a look.

Just know that all of your posts caused me to download the demo. I need to watch a video to figure things out, but it sure sounds interesting. I really appreciate when members talk about products like this thread. I find it valuable. Although it can always be costly!

Okay, now the solo cello I was looking at, 8Dio's Deep Solo Cello just went on sale too. Does anyone have that one that could compare it to Fluffy Audio's cello in terms of playability? I have a number of 8Dio libraries, including Intimate Strings, and while I like the tone, I don't think KONTAKT scripting is 8Dio's strong suit. @Reid Rosefelt, I realize that you already mentioned two other libraries you own, but now that I've narrowed down my choices to either Fluffy Audio's cello or 8Dio's, I was wondering if you had any insights? I like the way they both sound, so playability is a strong differentiator -- and while you shared that you thought Fluffy Audio did well in that regard.

Funny enough, I just posted a thread on VI Control to ask about cello libraries and came across a thread about how Toontrack pulling upgrade pricing alienated a lot of customers. I didn't post in it, at least not yet. I do hope, at some point, Toontrack reverses that decision. Someone actually posted a screenshot of Toontrack's original message, which they rightfully commented, used scare tactics -- stating that the product will no longer work at some point and they won't support it any longer. That is, sleazy, manipulative marketing and that is what caused me to not upgrade, hoping that others would also vote with their wallets. It's usually the one tactic that has a real chance of getting companies like this to change course. But this one is particularly stubborn.

Hahaha! After listening to a demo that sounded a lot like Damien Rice, I regret using Damien Rice as an example. I really meant more of the hard hits a rock drummer does when playing with brushes that are very much unlike the way a brushes are used in jazz (writing that as a drummer). The Damien Rice like demo does sound very nice, it's still using brushes very gently, like you would use in a jazz context. But wait, I see you have a picture of Animal as your avitar-- are you a drummer too? Also, now I wish I chose Animal instead of Felix the Cat! Hahaha. I'm actually kinda serious.

All of this, of course, is completely subjective. They're really not lacking much. If you find what you like, you're set. Personally, I think AD2 lacks a kit played with brushes that would be more suited for acoustic rock (think Damien Rice). They have a jazz brushes library which sounds very nice, but doesn't quite fit the way a drummer uses brushes with rock. Again, completely subjective, but AD2 has very processed sounding drums -- which can be a benefit (i.e., their drums are ready to go in a mix), but I simply like (okay, love) the samples and processing of Toontrack's kits much better. They just sound richer, fuller, more full bodied and often tuned more like the way I tune my drums. But SD3 is more than 3x the cost of AD2 and the kits are a lot more expensive. So that is also a consideration.

That gets my attention. Aren't these effects plugins really old? Are they well supported? I take it you and others here are fans of their effects? Would you recommend them? That price is compelling.