Michael Elliott

I usually have several music projects going at any particular time. If I get stalled on one, I go to another. Often the resulting process stimulates a thought on how or what to do with the stalled one. Or I just flip the lid up on the piano and start noodling, or pull a guitar down and noodle on that. If I'm stalled on all of them, I go to one of my many other "hobbies" (learning robotics / coding, ebikes, cgi artwork, 3d printing, learning about astronomy / astrophysics and wolves (and many other things (often via random internet walks), but especially those), metalwork, electronics, sound creation (sometimes used musically, sometimes not), "gardening" / yardwork, playing with the dog(s), sewing and leathercraft, helping people with various problems (usually online), reading, etc., etc.). (I also use all these hobbies to fill the time when I can't sleep, which is most of the time, when I am not working the dayjob)

Some thoughts: If you're not posting the project itself, can you at least show us what is in the audio fx bin for a specific track and all of the busses it passes thru on the way to the audio interface? Or, disable all audio fx in the chain, then solo that track and play it. Then render it with fx still disabled, and compare. That will eliminate all the audio fx as a possible cause. (there is an option during the render to not use the fx, but this doesn't change how it's played back, so it's not useful for this comparison). I don't know why an fx would be different during render (realtime or fast bounce) than playback, but if it is, it could be causing this problem. There are synths that have different options for render vs playback; I don't know if any fx do (other than the dialogs you have already found, which are probably not from the fx themselves since they are all identical and probably wouldn't be if they were from the fx manufacturers). Note that even with that menu you've already found, there could be other (manufacturer) settings for this within the actual synth or fx for render vs playback (for instance, Z3TA+2 has such a setting for Realtime Quality and another for Offline Quality within it's Options menu), and if so, you may need to check inside the settings of every synth / instrument and fx to be sure they are set the same to get identical results...but even if they are different settings, you should not have a significant difference in the audio output; they usually only affect the quality of the render, and the difference in sound is usually slight, and does not normally have any volume differences). If it's not already been done, another test is to route one track directly to your audio output instead of to any bus, disable it's fx bin, solo that track, and compare direct playback to a render. (this eliminates any fx bin or bus issue) Another test is to create a blank test project, and copy/paste one track from your existing project to it (and do any synth setup necessary to make it the same as the existing project), and do the comparison within the test project. (this eliminates all of the busses and tracks other than the one copied). It's unlikely that anything above has to do with the problem you're having, but it's worth checking. FWIW, the only times I have ever had a project sound significantly different in render vs playback was when I had something unchecked in the included stuff during the render, but your latest screenshot eliminates that. The only other sound differences I've encountered were from the render settings within a synth, but these were all subtle differences, nothing like what you're experiencing.

During my last collaboration, the guitar track file sent to me had to be manipulated a bit to get it into SONAR, and it didn't lineup with anything. After some processing I got it to the correct tempo/timing, but hadn't yet found the lineup points (it was an improv track to the song I'd already nearly completed otherwise), so when I went ahead and listened to it to figure out where it should start, I found a few possible spots, and it ended up working out better with a different start point, and with some parts cut and shifted around from there, too. If you're curious it's Convocation of Lies over on http://amberwolf.bandcamp.com ; the Lauscho version in the Lies, Truth, and Assorted Inconveniences album has the guitar track, and there are at least a couple earlier versions on the page that don't have the collab guitar track in there (just the original bits I'd played in).

The options below should be available within modern Sonar, but I don't know exactly which dialog they are in. Just to be sure you know, excluding the MIDI device wont' stop it from accessing the audio portions of the device. The MIDi stuff doesn't affect the audio sample rate, only the audio device(s). If you want to prevent an audio device from being accessed at all, you might be able to do that by disabling it in the Windows Device Manager. If not, you should be able to uncheck the audio device from the list of devices in the Audio drivers within Sonar. If all you want to do is keep it from accessing or listing the MIDI portion, then let it add that, then in Midi Options / Devices, uncheck that device's in and out, and it won't be in any of the lists of ports that tracks can access. But it won't stop the audio portion of the device from being accessed, and it will probably prevent you from using MIDI to control the device. So doing what yoru thread title suggests is likely the opposite of what you want to do. I suspect you will get better answers by changing the word in the title of your thread from MIDI to Audio.

Ok. I'll be sure not to reply to you in the future, to avoid causing you problems.

Do you mean Trim? **** If so, you can use Widget Tab Managment to turn that on in the Custom tab view (or make your own tab, or use any of the tabs except "All"). Right click in the empty space below your track strips, and WTM is in the menu there. (mgiht also be elsewhere). **** I don't have any track controls for Gain in my ancient SONAR version, just Trim and Volume for audio or synth tracks. I don't know what's available in modern versions.

I decided to delete it without installing when I started getting emails about free shipping for "my new mk8". First I just went to unsubscribe, until it showed in my prefs that I should get emails about my new Mk8, which I don't have, didn't and wouldn't and couldn't order. A company that can't keep their account info straight, and/or have deceptive info there, etc., isn't one I want to deal with.

At least in my ancient SONAR version, the same option exists in the track view PRV editing options in each MIDI track. In my version it's in the Show Hide Midi Events dropdown button with the little note and the "bar graph".

I use the in-track peak markers as well, so I can use automation to deal with the peaks as well as the main level of each track. For further metering I use the old free version of Voxengo SPAN (which I use to find out things I need to EQ out either to fix problems or to just see what I need to make holes for in other tracks.). Sometimes I pop in the free version of EAS Inspector to see what it tells me for it's various preset levels of strictness on the master bus. @giant ll If I EQ out stuff that a particular track doesn't need, then there's more room for energy in other tracks that do need that stuff, so the whole thing doesn't have to be as "loud" to get the same result. It also makes the audio less muddy. I use automation for some tracks that do need the stuff in some places, to reduce or turn off the EQ in those places. I tend to push mixes as close to 0dB as I can, because if I don't, then my tracks are too quiet and the few people that listen to them won't because they have to turn their volume up for them and then back down for their normal music. To help with that, I use the ancient but simple Sonitus Multiband compressor on tracks and/or busses as needed, using automation to turn things on and off whereever needed, bypassing or soloing bands, changing knees or levels, etc. The actual levels I use will vary (a lot) depending on the specific project, as some will need louder drums, some need quiet ones, etc. If you want to hear the results I get to see if they are applicable to your mixing / project style, there are a variety of different projects over at http://amberwolf.bandcamp.com The only ones that are not done in the methods above are in and below the row starting with the ancient Uncommon Ground album. Everything above that is done with variations of the above methods, with the newest stuff at the top, which has the most developed versions of these methods and probably the best mixes.

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The NG is still there? (haven't visited for....feels like decades?)

Naming storms for targets now?

Given the confusion by users that don't have that yet, perhaps you could consider creating a simple update to the BA (that it would notify users exists, assuming it is built to update itself, etc) that causes it to tell users to use the CPC instead? Having seen some of the threads here on this forum about such things, it might save your support people some time, and almost certainly save users frustration. Keep in mind that I'm not a target user for such things, just a recently-visiting outside-bystander looking at a handful of recent threads/posts, so I don't have anything like the depth of experience y'all do with this.

If they'd put Kontakt itself up at that price, then I *might* be able to skip enough household budget stuff to swing it, and then be able to use some of the many deals out there I'd love to then starve for, but they nearly all require the full version of Kontakt to use, so $300 for that plus the deal cost means they're impossible. (some deals also require things like buying an iLok dongle, as they don't come with them, and that's another cost I can't swing). If anybody runs across a super deal on Kontakt in the two-digit (or less :lol: ) price range, please post it up!

This plugin is supposed to (I think) generate various vinyl sounds without any audio input https://www.samplescience.info/2023/03/vinyl-crackles-generator.html but I haven't tried it. For regular processing like the one this thread is about, have you ever tried this one? I don't need this sort of thing very often, but have used this freebie a few times over the last couple decades. (don't recall when I first got it, but it's been a long time) https://www.izotope.com/en/products/vinyl.html if you like the older interface (the only one I have used) it should be the one at the bottom of the page here https://www.izotope.com/en/products/legacy-products.html This freebie I got at some point but apparently never tried out; it's still in my "not installed" folder https://vetrixmusic.com/download_vstplugins.html There's others out there, too but haven't tried them out. When I need a different kind of lofi-ness or similar in most of my projects, I use BiFilter2 https://www.tone2.com/bifilter2.html I don't remember which software that came with (been years), maybe some version of SONAR? but you can buy it separately. I use it for the automated distortion/etc on the synth / e-guitar-like "lead" track that starts around 30 seconds in on TT # Nex Ool here https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/tt-nex-ool the automation turns it off about a minute in. I've used it on quite a few projects as resonant filters and whatnot.

What is "the music player thingy"? How is it being used? Is it playing back rendered songs that are MP3, WAV or some other plain audio file? Or is it playing back Cakewalk / Sonar projects with their own internal effects? Within Sonar there is an Audio Option in the Advanced tab (in my version, it may be elsewhere in yours) for "Play Effect Tails After Stopping", that may affect the issue you see, depending on the specifics of what exactly you're doing. There is also an option (while freezing, bouncing, etc) for how long a tail to leave, IIRC.

Haha. Actually it's the terran environmental code the Chirpsithra use for us in the Niven's Draco Tavern story series.

I think both of those are about equally impossible. Stopping by to let you know that the "tweaked" versions of those plugins are still working in my ancient broken system. And that this piece of music wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the ir existence, and the problems encountered, because I wouldn't have created the test project that evolved into it. It's got several instances of CSHumanize on various tracks with assorted settings, and has had it applied to certain clips here and there permanently. So, thank you. I don't have much to offer, but if you need further artwork, etc., I can try to come up with something. I composited this banner for my bandcamp page out of some of the results from teh ai test kitchen, and a bit of hand drawing and other editing within my ancient PaintShopPro4. *** The music itself is TT # Nex Ool (tee tee hatch nex ool): https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/tt-nex-ool *** over the last few weeks, i've tried several newer paint / photo editing programs, both online and installed types, but all of them either have NO way to do a simple selection of an area, or make it extremely complex to do this, or they can't scroll around the screen if you are zoomed in, etc., or they have some other major functionality lack to just do very simple edits with. They might still do what I want with several months or years of learning their poorly-designed GUIs, and misusing other functions to do these things, but I don't have that kind of time to mess with them, and they should not be that hard to use.

I don't use the console view (or inspector), so I'm not familiar with it's layout or controls. I only use the controls directly in the bus tracks and the automation envelopes I create for them. I only do export from the file menu, so I don't know what dialog options exist doing it from other places. My SONAR is also very old (list of reasons given in another post somewhere), so my options may be different from yours. For this scenario, I recommend creating a "headphone" or "monitor" bus that is what feeds your hardware output, with no fx or anything, you're simply using it as a fader for your ears. Then set your master bus to feed to that bus, instead of the hardware output. Then export using Bus instead of entire mix, and choose only the master bus. FWIW, there are small volume control boxes you can get for headphones. I used to use one that was part of an old computer-speaker set, but since the interface I'm presently using has a separate hp control I haven't had it connected in years (probalby in a box around here). A random google link to a page with some versions of this kind of thing https://www.amazon.com/headphone-volume-control/s?k=headphone+volume+control Some of them can be mounted / taped / glued to your desk/etc., some clip to the cord, and so on. Also, if it's still out there anywhere, I also recommend for just the phone/speaker bus's fx bin an old plugin called "Bill T Ear Protection", which has a shutoff function (protect) if the levels go above some amount (I forget what it is but it turns the outputs off for spikes that could damage your ears or speakers). Was made by a forum or newsgroup member. If it's not around, there's probably other things that do the same job. In that bin it can't affect your exports. I use this type of protection as part of my base template because I experiment with sounds a lot, and sometimes a synth or effect does something unexpected at an output level I would not expect possible. These things prevent that from blowing me or my equipment up. EDIT: Didn't get any hits at all searching for BTEP, but a similar free plugin shows up here https://www.kvraudio.com/product/ice9-automute-by-cerberus-audio the original site is gone, but freevstplugins still has it here: https://freevstplugins.net/cerberus-audio-ice9-automute/ If you leave them all selected, I think it creates a separate file for each bus. this is actually useful if you want to master or mix outside SONAR or collaborations, or just archive things for backup. You can do the same thing with Tracks and have it export each track as a separate file as well. I haven't used that function in a lot of years so I could be mistaken. (or it might have changed in all the versions since then).

Are you adjusting your monitor levels at the monitors, or at the master bus? If the former, it won't*** affect your export, but doing so at the master bus will, if that is the source for your export. ***(assuming they are typical and do not have a control surface type of control hardware feedback into SONAR) If your monitors have no volume control (at the monitors or the amp, etc), you can also create a separate monitor bus from your master bus, that the master bus feeds. The monitor bus then feeds the hardware output. Set the monitor bus to whatever levels/etc you want, but leave the master bus set for the final actual output levels you intend everyone to hear. Then when you export, choose the master bus as the source. For export in this case, I would normally choose "what you hear" as the preset, select the bit depth desired, give it a file name, and choose Buses as the source, and select just the Master bus, so you get only the output that has the correct mix. On my old M-audio FastTrackPro USB hardware, it has a headphone volume control separate from the main out volume control, but both of these only affect the output signal to the world, and don't change anything about the mix or levels inside the computer. So I use those knobs to alter my listening volume, and do whatever's needed at the busses inside SONAR for the mix itself to get the final file output volume I need, and the listening volume does not affect the exports. So I just use What you hear for the export preset and leave it set to "entire mix", and I get it just like I need it.

Not that this has anything to do with the metronome issue, but have you ever tried the mixdown or bounce to track function instead of realtime loopback recording? I ask because the quoted description sounds like you're just combining all the tracks you already have into a single track for a "mixdown". If that's the case, then selecting all your material (Ctrl-A for all, for instance) then choosing Edit - Bounce to Tracks (might be different menu in modern Sonar/etc), then in the dialog choose a new track for the destination, "what you hear" for the preset, entire mix for the source category, etc. If you're trying to record new material at the same time and require the metronome count-in, then that won't do what you want, since it's not realtime. There is an option to do it realtime, including with live input recorded along with it, but that's basically what you are already doing right now, and would probably have the same issue if it uses the metronome. I don't know if it does, as I don't use that option since I would always want to be able to edit the new material separately from the existing material, on it's own new track, and only mixdown eveyrhting to one track later after all the editing is done, but not everyone works that way.

This might not be the issue but: If the sound being used for the metronome is long enough to extend past the end of the count-in bar(s), it's going to be in the recorded part. Same if it passes into any effects that reverb or delay or echo it, etc., causing it to continue past the end of the count-in. A hack to work around this is to leave a blank measure (or more) in front of your project to give time for the count in sound to die out. Some of the count in sounds may be longer than others, so depending on what you're using you might need more time after the count in for the sound to fade out. I use the very short sound I sent in to the bakers many years ago that is listed as Metro Click 2, which was recorded off the even more ancient Ensoniq ASR88 / EPS16+ workstation keyboards. I also have it routed directly to the output hardware, not thru any bus (or else thru it's own bus (to give me an easy-to-access volume control) that is routed to the hardware out, and never to the master bus), so it doesn't get included in anything I record, and won't be included in any mixdown that stops at the master bus. I used to have it routed to a separate audio output with it's own speaker back when I was using the ancient (but still working even now!) GadgetLabs Wave 8*24 on a desktop computer, but I have not had that computer working for years, and just have a stereo in/out USB interface now, so it doesn't have that option. When it was on it's own output I could simply turn the speakers for it off and never mess with any options in SONAR itself, leaving it enabled for everything (playback, recording, count-in, etc), and I could easily adjust the volume as needed, too.

This isn't a solution to the problem, but a "hack", if it is usable for you. (I use it sometimes because I have poor fine motor control and perception and sometimes can't reliably click on things in small spaces.) Assuming the newer Sonar works like the ancient one I use, there is the option to set the Now time by left (or right, or both) clicking in a track, in the track view clips pane options, IIRC. So you can create an empty track wherever is convenient for you to use as a now time setter, and just click in it when you want to set the now time there. It's a waste of screen space and whatnot, but it does work, and you can make the track minimized or as tall as you want, to make it convenient to click in. You can also put the track in the middle of your workspace, at the top, the bottom, or anywhere between other tracks. (you can also just click within a track to do this, even on clips, but if you don't want to select or touch anything in a track that it less convenient).

Thanks! I convinced the ai art program to give me something closer to what I wanted for cover art, but it's not whimsical enough, it kept taking too many things literally, so i have a couple hundred junk images. So this is the new art for this one. https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-moon-it-read-to-me-and-it-was-bright and this is the new art for the original all-electronic version https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/the-moon-it-read-to-me-and-it-was-bright-original-electronic-version

Thanks! Still working on the mix; trying to find out where my bass went. I have two "identical" vizio soundbars; one on my (self-custom-built) trike that I listen to sometimes while commuting to/from work, and one glued to the top of my computer monitor. For all the other songs, they sound the same, allowing for the riding conditions drowning stuff out. But on this song, it has virtually no bass on the trike while riding, while it sounds about right on the one at home. Not sure what is causing the difference.... The artwork process I described in one of these song threads. I just posted this one over here with a bunch of variations I am trying to choose from to better represent the chaos of that song.