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Astral

Lost USB MIDI from Yamaha Motif XS8

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Hey there

This is emergency, because- well- I am a keyboardist and Yamaha Motif XS* is my main MIDI instrument and I use a lot of MIDI. I have no MIDI signal on MIDI track. Yes, the blue light on a track is on. I have Yamaha XS Ins and Outs showing in Devices for Audio and MIDI, computer is making connected/disconnected sounds when connect/disconnect USB cable, Cakewalk asks if I want to re-route devices when connected/disconnected- everything looks normal, but no signal. The MIDI track is dead. I have this board from 2008. With Windows updates, I lost USB connection from V-Synth GT and Fantom G- Roland decided to not update their drivers. But Yamaha was always stable. It was always on, soon as I load any project on any MIDI channel- it always worked. I am panicking wondering if Windows did some update that caused it. I did check another USB port and another USB cable. We recently moved and I was not using a studio in a new place, so configuration could of change. I also loaded voices bank that was saved as "All data" and all my MIDI settings were wiped out. But I have it set MIDI to USB, Local Off. They are very simple settings. I checked everything 20 times. I dont understand why I can't make it work. Any thoughts? Thank you.  

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1) Possibly mismatch on midi channels, between the keyboard and the track?

2) While the above may be the cause, I think the following is my guess for most likely scenario: If using USB cable to connect external keyboard or controller, if any of the plugged in USB cables - to the computer - have moved to a different port - (and it does not even have to be the XS that got plugged into a different USB port - could be any of the devices plugged into any of the USB ports on the computer), so for some @$(*@$&(*@$&& reason, Windows reassigns its own internal table of what is plugged into what, and Sonar or now CbB, can show the device names as being valid declared and selected as active devices in Preferences > Midi > Devices, but underneath - internally - that device had been given a new connection identifier by Windows, and you would never know it by just looking at it.

SOOOOOOOOOO - you can try to get everything plugged back into the ports, the exact same way they were before, and that should clear up the issue, OR you can:

Load up your project, and go into Preferences > MIDI > Devices, and remove the check box for the XS, then click Apply, save the project, close the project, open it again, then check the box again for the XS as a MIDI Device, and click Apply.  IF the above is why it was not playing, then these steps should result in it properly playing again.

Please note - I am NOT an expert on the internals of this situation - I just (and most of us) have learned the hard way, that moving ANY USB devices to different ports makes for unwanted chaos with external midi keyboards/controllers being able to be properly recognized in projects where those devices were present but subsequently managed to get internally reassigned by Windows.

Additionally, I have been dealing with this ^&)@&)*&@& situation myself, for about a month, and I have not yet figured out how to stop this from having the same issue, over and over, even though no cables have been moved after an initial movement of a different device caused the issue a first time.  In other words, I KEEP having to do that same process, of removing my midi controller as a midi device, saving the project, reopening it, and adding the controller back in as a midi device and saving the project.  Every single time I open the project again, I have to go through this.  Driving me NUTS.

SO - even though I cannot offer you a permanent solution, at this time, IF this is what is causing your issue, then at least by doing the above steps, as I explained in the 2nd paragraph above, hopefully you can at least be able to again use the XS.

Please note: If you go into Windows Device Manager (right-click on the WIndows Start Button and click on Device Manager), you can view the presence of what I call Ghosted USB devices, by going to View, and clicking on Show Hidden Devices, and then expanding the device category Sound, Video, and Game Controllers.  Any devices that are listed, that are lighter in color - like a pasty white or grey, those are for devices that are there but that had gotten internally reassigned.  So, if my controller shows up twice, once nice and dark (and active if you look at properties for it), and has a 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th, additional entry that only shows up when I have the Show Hidden Devices option selected under View, those additional entries indicate that those are not current driver entries, and it is a confirmation that somehow, a USB device ended up in a different USB port, and it caused an internal reassignment.  I usually remove those Ghost entries, by uninstalling them, as they are no longer what is being used.

Maybe there is some kind of way to get this all sorted out once and for all, and if anyone knows the secret to that, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE jump in and enlighten me, because thus far, I have been unable to figure out how to do it.

Bob Bone

 

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When this happens to me it is usually because the midi is being used by a controller.

Check preferences and controller.

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I am using a Yamaha Motif XS8 and it is amazing for a control surface and midi input device .   Always make sure the Yamaha is turned on fully before starting Cakewalk. Also sometimes for what ever reason cakewalk loses my preferences for surface control.  Go into your preferences and make sure XS8 1 is checked and XS82 is checked.  XS8 1 is used for the keyboard midi input and the XS8 2 is used for the surface controls.  Also I use the Yamaha in Master mode and Remote mode on for surface control.  I know its allot to take this stuff but you will figure it out and The Yamaha is excellent for surface control it has all the mutes , solos, all transport controls  I really love it. I hope you figure this all out!!  Try not to panic .

Mark

 

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I suspect that since Vlada had indicated gear had moved from one location to another, that perhaps the USB cables didn't end up connected to the same devices/ports.  Could be wrong - just think that is my best guess on what is happening.

Bob Bone

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7 minutes ago, Robert Bone said:

I suspect that since Vlada had indicated gear had moved from one location to another, that perhaps the USB cables didn't end up connected to the same devices/ports.  Could be wrong - just think that is my best guess on what is happening.

Based on another discussion of the relocated-usb-device problem, I tried to find a tool to understand the issue better that might lead to a better solution than just taking a picture  (or making a diagram) of where each usb device was plugged in.  Looking at usb device properties was not very helpful, IMO.  I then found this and installed it. I believe I ran it once just to see how the information was presented. I have not gone back to it, but if you are familiar with that tool and/or have any thoughts on how it might be useful for the relocated-usb-device problem (if at all), I'd be interested in your observations. 

Apologies for bringing this up here; I don't want to derail the problem-solving of this specific problem. So, perhaps if the View USB tool is (or might be) useful, you could create a special thread ["Third-Party Diagnostic Tools" ???] and maybe add a link to it here and maybe the other places where the issue is discussed.  I have a feeling that unless/until Cakewalk (or perhaps Windows 10) has its own built-in "Locate Moved USB Devices Tool," this issue will continue to come up.

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If you record MIDI without hearing anything, does it record as expected, and there is activity in the MIDI meter on playback?

If so, you probably just need to enable Input Echo - looks like ))) - on the MIDI track or have Always Echo Current MIDI Track enabled in preferences, and have the MIDI track focused.

If MIDI records and plays back and live input is echoed per the MIDI track meter, but you don't hear anything, then the question is where is the audio coming from and how are you monitoring it?  If audio is from the Motif, itself, are you using the built-in mLAN digital audio interface, or analog or SPDIF output to an audio interface?  Either way, if sound is to be monitored through Cakewalk, you need to have an audio track in the project with Input set to appropriate port/driver enabled in Preferences >  Audio > Devices and Input Echo enabled on the Audio track. 

 

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Thank you for all your intelligent replies. I can't reply in details right now, so this is just brief post to support your helpful thoughts.

Midi channel mismatch- no. Keyboard transmits in single mode to 1. I select Midi inputs either Omni, or Yamaha Omni or Yamaha 1- tried all that there logically available. I did not look at MIDI channel on the track, but why would it be different than 1? I did not type in Ch2 or anything.

Yes, the USB ports all got changed. BUT Yamaha had metal solid driver. I am pretty sure it was moved before. If not Yamaha port, then definitely other USB devices. I will make attempt to connect it where I remember it used to be, but doubt this will solve it.  

 Preferences > MIDI > Devices, and remove the check box for the XS, then click Apply, save the project, close the project, open it again, then check the box again for the XS as a MIDI Device, and click Apply. 

I did not try this all the way, but I think I did try to uncheck all Yamaha ports (4), and then check them back- minus saving the project closing and reopening. 

I will look at Device manager tonight. Again- this never happened before.

 

Gswitz- what do you mean- MIDI is used by controller? What controller? I always had multiple controllers connected. 

 Always make sure the Yamaha is turned on fully before starting Cakewalk. Also sometimes for what ever reason cakewalk loses my preferences for surface control. 

Cakewalk (Sonar) has ability to detect when something got connected. Many times in the past I would forget to turn keyboard on and when I turn it on AFTER Sonar is opened and project is loaded, it would just say that "Device was connected- would you like to add it?" So right now Cakewalk can FEEL that something is connected- dont remember if it calls it by name or not, but it definitely detects when it connected and when it disconnected. It just does not recognize any data. 

Markrounds, are you on Windows 10? If so, do you have latest updates installed? Do you have latest Cakewalk update installed? Please, confirm- my worse fear is that Windows update destroyed driver as it did with Roland and Roland never fixed it, so I already lost V-Synth and Fantom. Yamaha was good and survived every update. So, please, confirm your OS and that it is working with new updates. Thank you. 

 

DavidBaay, I had this issue in the past of blue light Input Echo was not on and I had no activity. I I double checked to make sure the blue light is ON. The track looks dead. No meter activity- no signs of life of any kind. The problem is not AUDIO. Motif has Local ON and Local Off. In Local ON, I can play keyboard and hear audio through USB Audio interface. I can record AUDIO, but I dont have MIDI activity. IF there was activity, it would work with Local OFF, which would go through software and trigger notes via MIDI as opposite to go to sound module when Local On. So- AUDIO is working, no MIDI. 

Thank you very much. 

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Vlada - I believe when the midi devices are removed from Preferences, those changes Applied, then save and close and reopen, CbB picks up the new internal identifier for the midi controller, so when you then add that keyboard back into the Midi Devices, and hit Apply, it has the proper identifier associated with the keyboard - in its new port location (internally), and that should make it work, IF the issues are from the internal reassignment I am speculating is causing your issues.

I am eating lunch, followed by a nap, and then I will begin using a couple of utilities I downloaded, one from Microsoft, and another from a developer, that lets me inspect detailed info on what USB devices are connected, and which ones are in which ports, etc.....  I am in search of a PERMANENT solution to the issue of internal reassignment of USB devices / ports, so that this issue can get resolved whenever it pops up.  I will let you know how my efforts go, as I too have this issue, and as a developer myself, I cannot stand when stupid coding logic messes up my day.  :)

Bob Bone

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I think what  @Gswitz and @markrounds are referring to is this:

Capture.PNG.b1c1042c910fee41c685a5a9aeb650c0.PNG

When you disconnect and reconnect Midi devices, Cakewalk will sometimes reassign the Control Surface ports. If the port your keyboard uses gets assigned to another controller/surface it can prevent the Midi data from getting though to the track (or echo).

In the above example, my Axiom keyboard is being routed to the FW-1884 surface, so although all the other settings are correct, the keyboard will not function correctly because the FW-1884 Surface Controller is eating all the Midi data.

This still catches me sometimes... just something else to put on you checklist.

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24 minutes ago, Astral said:

I can record AUDIO, but I dont have MIDI activity. IF there was activity, it would work with Local OFF, which would go through software and trigger notes via MIDI as opposite to go to sound module when Local On. So- AUDIO is working, no MIDI. 

Okay, so what about recording MIDI or playing back MIDI entered via the PRV? MIDI meters are always output meters, regardless of record-arming state, so there could  be a failure to echo live input, or just a problem on the output side. Also, do you see activity in the MIDI Activity monitor that Cakewalk places in the Windows System Tray (Preferences > Display > Show MIDI Activity on Windows Taskbar)?

And, on the off chance that the keyboard actually has a problem, you can try patching the MIDI OUT  directly to the IN  with a DIN cable and see if the Motif will play itself with Local OFF.

 

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21 hours ago, Astral said:

Thank you for all your intelligent replies. I can't reply in details right now, so this is just brief post to support your helpful thoughts.

Midi channel mismatch- no. Keyboard transmits in single mode to 1. I select Midi inputs either Omni, or Yamaha Omni or Yamaha 1- tried all that there logically available. I did not look at MIDI channel on the track, but why would it be different than 1? I did not type in Ch2 or anything.

Yes, the USB ports all got changed. BUT Yamaha had metal solid driver. I am pretty sure it was moved before. If not Yamaha port, then definitely other USB devices. I will make attempt to connect it where I remember it used to be, but doubt this will solve it.  

 

 

I did not try this all the way, but I think I did try to uncheck all Yamaha ports (4), and then check them back- minus saving the project closing and reopening. 

I will look at Device manager tonight. Again- this never happened before.

 

Gswitz- what do you mean- MIDI is used by controller? What controller? I always had multiple controllers connected. 

 

 

Cakewalk (Sonar) has ability to detect when something got connected. Many times in the past I would forget to turn keyboard on and when I turn it on AFTER Sonar is opened and project is loaded, it would just say that "Device was connected- would you like to add it?" So right now Cakewalk can FEEL that something is connected- dont remember if it calls it by name or not, but it definitely detects when it connected and when it disconnected. It just does not recognize any data. 

Markrounds, are you on Windows 10? If so, do you have latest updates installed? Do you have latest Cakewalk update installed? Please, confirm- my worse fear is that Windows update destroyed driver as it did with Roland and Roland never fixed it, so I already lost V-Synth and Fantom. Yamaha was good and survived every update. So, please, confirm your OS and that it is working with new updates. Thank you. 

 

DavidBaay, I had this issue in the past of blue light Input Echo was not on and I had no activity. I I double checked to make sure the blue light is ON. The track looks dead. No meter activity- no signs of life of any kind. The problem is not AUDIO. Motif has Local ON and Local Off. In Local ON, I can play keyboard and hear audio through USB Audio interface. I can record AUDIO, but I dont have MIDI activity. IF there was activity, it would work with Local OFF, which would go through software and trigger notes via MIDI as opposite to go to sound module when Local On. So- AUDIO is working, no MIDI. 

Thank you very much. 

I am on the latest Cakewalk and the Latest Windows 10 with all updates.

Edited by markrounds

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"I did not look at MIDI channel on the track, but why would it be different than 1? I did not type in Ch2 or anything."

1.  Sometimes it just gets switched so do look at it.

2.  Also, I assume you have all the latest MOTIF XS drivers from this site:  https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/index.html?c=music_production&k=motif+xs

3.  Have you tried just using the Firewire or MIDI DIN ins and outs instead of USB?

Those two trials might tell you if its just the MOTIF's USB interface or some other problem.

Good luck and Happy Holidays

 

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I have delay with getting back to the studio to test your great suggestions. Thank you for looking up the driver page- I was planing to do that some time. Appears- the latest driver is from 2015, I am pretty sure I have that one installed. The board used to work before 2017, then I was using new build computer for 2 years, and not sure when I saw it working last time with this system... 

Mark, thank you for confirmation. I did not think Yamaha driver went belly up too. This is encouraging. Will be back soon. 

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Hi, Vlada - I have downloaded some software code from Microsoft, and elsewhere, with which I intend to build a little utility to try to address the issues I was describing earlier in this post, but it will take me some number of days to do the research, coding, testing, etc., of that.

In the meantime, when time permits, I do look forward to your trying my suggested set of steps, to see if indeed you are dealing with what I call the "Windows internal reassignment of USB device to port mapping" issue.  (I might think of a better term for the issue at some point).  Anyways, I hope if you are experiencing this issue, that following the steps I had posted fixes the issue - even if just temporarily.

Bob Bone

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Hey there

Robert, thank you for suggestions, nothing helped. I did see 4 entries for Yamaha in device manager, I uninstalled them, but did not check "Delete driver" because I did not want it to try to delete driver that is in use. I unchecked Yamaha in preferences, saved project, restarted computer and reopened it and there is nothing still.

It was set on MIDI Ch (C) None. I set it to 1(default). Nothing. 

Veriorum, I have no control surfaces listed in that section- empty. Thanks. 

David, I still have to check MIDI Activity monitor that Cakewalk places in the Windows System Tray (Preferences > Display > Show MIDI Activity on Windows Taskbar)

BRainbow, I do not have MIDI interface, so I cant check it. I do have another sound card that has MIDI- I will have to connect it to test.

I have strong feeling that the issue is inside the keyboard, not Sonar. Now I remember that I did have MIDI working because I had annoying MIDI LOOP that would make all Motif patterns play in super tempo. I remember dealing with that problem, so MIDI was working. I loaded Voice Bank that was saved as "All Data" which changed all settings. But I have MIDI set back to USB, I do not know what it cold do to stop midi transmission.

Thank you very much. 

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Hi Vlada - In the steps you listed, in testing my theory - You did not indicate you had added the Yamaha back as a midi device, after you had removed it and restarted.  Because you had removed it and saved with it removed, you need to add it back in, in order for it to be usable.

Bob Bone

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Thank you for being detail- oriented. Yes, I did check it. I used to do it over and over when using other controller that liked to disconnect. But never Yamaha. I was told to try to reset Yamaha back to factory and see what happens. 

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I'm guessing the answer here is in preferences. 

Unchecked midi device or a controller taking the input.

Edited by Gswitz

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