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Posted (edited)

what advantage or disadvantage is there in using Piano Roll View  as opposed to staff view?  I normally enter notes with my mouse........

 

Edited by John Balich

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PVR has seen a lot of updates , Staff view seems to have a list of improvements that have been asked by members that have not ever been addressed. 

I have used PVR for probably over 20 years so I'm very comfortable editing and drawing notes. I've never even opened Staff view. I actually know how to read music but for midi PRV and the Event list seem more logical. But for those who have a high skill level with notation I guess Staff view has it's fan club. 

But then I'm not sure how you deal with Velocity and and CC events in staff view so I guess PVR is where you would end up working anyhow. 

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interesting. Just looking at the two screens i can see it is likely easier to visualize the piece........i guess the best is to use it for

 awhile.

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I've found there are fine subtleties  that I can't express in the staff view where I can draw them in PRV. Mostly fine timing.

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There are a few advantages to staff view.

* If you have set the key for the song it easy to scan through to see if there are any accidentals that should not be there.

* If you have improvised a part it's easier to set up the chord structure to your improv - I use the arranger track while viewing the staff.

But I agree timing is far easier to adjust in PRV.

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Posted (edited)

Hi, I've doing song transcriptions to music score and I've been using Staff View a lot! For this job is a bit hard to work on Piano Roll View, but it could help if I need to write quintuplets, for example.

However working with MIDI CC is easier on PRV, and also Transform Tool is a nice feature for this task!
Also PRV is better for programming drums, but if I need to print drums part I'll have to review it on Staff View, to adjust notes rythmic division.

Edited by mgustavo

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Posted (edited)

I can't read music. Aside from that you can't enter cc's in Staff View. Never use it.

If you could actually enter notes in the guitar Fret Pane that would be cool.

Turns out you can but for some reason I couldn't.

Fret Pane should also be reversible for left-handers.

EDIT: @Starship KrupaLooks like you're bad habits are rubbing off

Edited by sjoens
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On 5/10/2022 at 8:37 AM, John Balich said:

what advantage or disadvantage is there in using Piano Roll View  as opposed to staff view?  I normally enter notes with my mouse........

 

The Piano Roll View allows:

For more granular editing (you are not limited to exact divisions of measures when placing notes). 
The editing of controller data - like pitch bend , expression, volume, pan, filters, etc.

The only thing I use the Staff View for is to enter lyrics synced to notes.

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The staff view is usable.  I have always seen this aspect of the program as having much potential but not nearly as developed as either a dedicated notation program or the staff view in a few other competing DAWs. It could also be said  there are some DAWs with the same basic staff view functions as Cakewalk which are more of an afterthought than a well developed function for notation work.

Inputting data with a mouse is tough no matter if using piano roll or staff view. This is why most musicians have some kind of a midi keyboard. The keyboard notes correspond to the notes in the piano roll making this task so much easier.

The piano roll has many advantages and why I primarily use it over staff view. I think once you get the hang of it you won't go back to staff view.

Some advantages I see as easier in piano roll are:

- the ability to easily make changes to multiple events all at once using the smart tool and others

-The ability to use ghost notes when comparing multiple tacks. This is very helpful to composers since the ghost notes are a quick way to see timing and music relationship with other tracks

-The ability to easily change keys and/or tempo

-the ability to easily change dynamics

-the ability to copy either portions or an entire track to another track. Once done, this data can be more easily manipulated than attempting to copy new data from scratch. i.e. lassoing a portion of data on the other track and dragging it all down a 3rd, or deleting only the high portions of that track and using the low portions for a bass line.

 

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Posted (edited)

If you can read music, the staff view is a convenient way to visually follow along when playing back a song.

But really wouldn't recommend the Cakewalk staff view for writing music though, unless that is really your thing. And if it is, I'm sure that you already have a dedicated notation program to do that in. :)

And per Tim's comment above, get a MIDI keyboard for entering notes into your DAW, even if you are only recording in step mode (one note at a time). You don't actually have to know how to play the keyboard to accomplish it that way, just the note names and the corresponding keys.

For all the reasons already mentioned, the piano roll is probably the best way to edit your song in Cakewalk.

Edited by abacab
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The PRV is the foundation Cakewalk/Sonar/CbB is built on.

The Staff view was added as more of a reference, I believe.

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On 5/10/2022 at 2:09 PM, sjoens said:

Looks like you're bad habits are rubbing off

Do you mean posting, then the brain catching up and having to go back and strike through what I just posted? Heaven help you.

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Posted (edited)

deleted

Edited by User 905133
unnecessary historical references deleted

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12 hours ago, sjoens said:

The Staff view was added as more of a reference, I believe.

This statement reminds me of the first time that I gave my parents a demonstration of MIDI playback with Cakewalk (around 25 years ago) during one of their visits.

They were both musicians that could read sheet music, but knew nothing about computers or MIDI.

I put the Cakewalk staff view up on the monitor so that they could (reference) follow along with the song. It didn't take them long to arrive at the assumption that the computer was working like an electronic version of an old time player piano.

So yeah, MIDI data is similar to the little holes punched in paper (the "piano roll") that tells a player piano what notes to play. But that's not very human readable. That's what scores and notation are for.

The advantage with modern DAW "piano rolls" is that modern computer editing tools make them easier to work with. :)

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Even trying to edit tracks on an old time synth workstation sequencer was difficult. How fun is it to load 'em up and record them into a DAW for editing?!

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Posted (edited)

I wonder how many people today realize where the term Piano Roll came from?  
A visit to the music instrument museum in north Scottsdale AZ and see all the various different types of automation using air compressors. Whole brass bands all scored on metal disks with holes punched in them. 

Edited by John Vere

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, John Vere said:

I wonder how many people today realize where the term Piano Roll came from?  
A visit to the music instrument museum in north Scottsdale AZ and see all the various different types of automation using air compressors. Whole brass bands all scored on metal disks with holes punched in them. 

A few years ago (maybe 12-15?) someone at a neighborhood yard sale was closing up shop, so I made an offer on the lot of piano rolls he had left just so he didn't have to cart them back into the house.  Clearly, they are the antecedents to MIDI.  Does anyone not know that?

"Play notes X, Y and Z.  Stop notes X, Y, and Z."  

BTW, there are some dedicated fans of piano rolls who have developed methods for converting them to MIDI. Fascinating  stuff, if anyone is interested.** 

**UPDATE: HOLY CRAPPOLA!!!  I haven't looked up "How to convert piano rolls to MIDI" in quite a while and the internet now seems to have become overrun with webpages about DAW-based piano rolls.  It is hard to find the sites I had in mind.  There used to be a number of excellent sites, including details on how people have built piano roll conversion hardware.  

Edited by User 905133
to lament the bias of Google

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sjoens said:

Even trying to edit tracks on an old time synth workstation sequencer was difficult. How fun is it to load 'em up and record them into a DAW for editing?!

My frustration with my Korg X2 workstation sequencer is what eventually drove me to acquire my first PC and Cakewalk!

But the Korg did have a cute 3.5" floppy drive that I could load MIDI files that I had downloaded from my work PC at the office. That was fun! :)

Edited by abacab

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