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Orphaned envelopes when opening project on another computer! [SOLVED but prob. BUG in Cakewalk]

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So. I've recently updated Cakewalk to the latest. So far everything's fine. Project's working fine on computer 1. However, on the freshly installed computer (computer 2) with new Cakewalk install (same latest version as on computer 1), when I open my project file from computer 1, I get "Orphaned" automation envelopes on computer 2.

  • Computer 1 (newly installed latest Cakewalk) + same project file = automation working fine.
  • Computer 2 (newly installed latest Cakewalk) + same project file = automation NOT working.

I've also tried to save the project as a Bundle (.cwb), but it doesn't make any difference. I've also tried with other, earlier, versions of the project (so I've tried with several different project files), but I get the same problem on all, "Orphaned" automation envelopes everywhere.

I have quite some automation going on so I definitely wouldn't want to redo them all.

Also, to SHIFT+Left click on them, marking them, and re assigning each one (I barely know which envelope is assigned to what really), would not be an option either as it would be a real pain in the *****. Not to mention, what says this won't happen again.

There's unfortunately no automation read for any of the orphaned envelopes, it's like they wouldn't exist. They just sit there in the background inactive as "ghosts".

 

What is the problem, am I doing something wrong? And is there a solution?

Edited by pulsewalk

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Just a quick update. To SHIFT+Left click them to toggle them, and trying to reassigning them only results in them being deleted completely.

Just as I chose anything to reassign them with, they vanishes. With other words, they're not even re-assignable ūüėĘ

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Could be, but all the envelopes that I have goes to a VSTi synth and it's installed and working, same version as on computer 1.

So the VSTi is there, but the automation isn't working for it, it's all orphaned.

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That, I'm actually not sure of. Would that really matter?

Just thinking, if people are to send projects to each other, or take it with them to other producers, does everything have to be exactly mirrored on the other producers computer? Sounds like there's quite a small chance to that actually.

All I know is that the plugin which uses the automation, is installed on both machines and are indeed the same version with the same presets/patches installed. I can check if the VSTi is installed in the same path, but once again, it would be quite odd if that would have to do with anything. :)

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UPDATE! This is quite unbelievable, but moving the plugin .dll file to the same folder on computer 2, as it was located on computer 1 (where the project had been created), made the automation lanes/envelopes work again! The reason being the location of plugin .dll was suggested by scook in an above post, thank you!

This must be a BUG. It means Cakewalk assigns automation data, to not the plugin itself but, to the plugin's dll location! Cakewalk should assign automation data relative to the plugin itself, not relative to the plugins location on the computer.

 

Not everbody on earth have their plugins located on the same drive and same folders. This means that people cannot send projects between one another without making the project FUBAR, even though the receiver of the project have exactly the same plugins/versions installed. This have to be a BUG!?

Edited by pulsewalk

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I know nothing of CbB's inner workings so this sounds interesting.

I know you can "replace" a synth on the same track (right-click icon > Replace Synth...) without affecting anything else on the track.

You can also add automation to the MIDI track so whatever synth you use won't affect it.

Edited by sjoens

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14 minutes ago, sjoens said:

I know nothing of CbB's inner workings, but...

Maybe it locates the track's plugin by the plugin's location. What if you had 2 different plugins in 2 different locations with the same name? How would a DAW determine which one to use?

I don't know anything about Cakewalks inner workings either, but I don't know why two different plugins would have the same name? Perhaps same file name, but same "plugin name"? Either it is brand X and model X, or it isn't, I guess?
Nevertheless, plugin identification for a track is one thing and I see it as the "first level" identifying process. Of course Cakewalk needs to identify the same plugin so the track will play as it is intended. So if a track is a Serum track, or Massive track or Sylenth track (or whatever), it should be identified upon loading the project. If the correct VSTi is installed, everything should be fine from there.

Automation data for the track itself, I see as the "second level" of identifying process. With other words, if the "first level" of identifying is correct, and the same VSTi plugin is available on the computer, all the automation data should point to that plugin and call that plugins envelope control "identifiers" or whatever they would be called, so it's calling up "filter cutoff 1" or anything which would determine what parameter to control. And it should only request the plugin itself, not its entire installation path. Where it is installed should be entirely irrelevant.

It's like if one could not open a Photoshop .PSD file or a Illustrator .AI file on another computer without problems, unless PS/ILLY is installed on the exact same drive and in the exact same folder path on both computers. That would not make any sense, if you know what I mean. :)

Edited by pulsewalk

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42 minutes ago, sjoens said:

Yeah, I kinda changed my post b4 you quoted me...

Oh, sorry, didn't see that, I probably wrote the reply in the meantime while you changed it.

So regrading your new edited input: I'm not sure but I think I tried to replace the synth just as you suggested. I can try to do that again just to make sure. As that would be an easier solution than reinstalling or moving VSTi .dll's. However, it should not be that way anyway, so I think that should be fixed by the programmers, if at all possible (should be?).

As for MIDI automation, yeah, that could be used too. I'm not sure if it works just as good and smoothly with the various VSTi's but I guess then I'd have to assign the controllers to MIDI CC#'s and whatnot in order for it to work. Question is also how effective that would be compared to direct automation. If the MIDI automation would result in added latency or sync issues or anything. It might be worth a try, but once again, it should not be needed, automation of the plugin directly should work perfectly regardless off plugin .dll location on the computer.

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1 hour ago, sjoens said:

I know you can "replace" a synth on the same track (right-click icon > Replace Synth...) without affecting anything else on the track.

So, I just tried this to make sure. But it did not work. In fact, it made everything even worse. When I replaced the VST synth with itself (same synth), not only all the track automation disappeared, the patch was set to "init" so everything got reset.

Actually, the same happens if I do the same (replace synth) on "computer 1", where the project was created - everything gets reset, automation gone, patch to "init".

I'm not sure if that is configurable?

Edited by pulsewalk

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It depends what automation you're using. Basic volume , pan, gain, etc. Track automation should stay with the track while Synth controls would be tied to that synth. Replacing it would remove automation tied to that synth even if you reload the same one because you're "removing" it before reinserting it.

Not sure if that can be changed.

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3 hours ago, sjoens said:

 Replacing it would remove automation tied to that synth even if you reload the same one because you're "removing" it before reinserting it.

Yeah, but then how can I replace the synth without affecting the automation, as you suggest here:

5 hours ago, sjoens said:

I know you can "replace" a synth on the same track (right-click icon > Replace Synth...) without affecting anything else on the track.

How do I do that? When I do that, it does affect the automation, it is deleted. But how can I do it so its retained as you describe?

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4 hours ago, pulsewalk said:

Yeah, but then how can I replace the synth without affecting the automation, as you suggest here:

How do I do that? When I do that, it does affect the automation, it is deleted. But how can I do it so its retained as you describe?

I spoke too soooon the 1st time and tried to clarify what I found the 2nd. But as I said, I know nothing of CbB's inner workings. 

Hopefully Noel's answer answers the question.

Edited by sjoens

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To clarify - this is not a bug per se. Its an unfortunate side effect of backwards compatibility of projects when dealing with 8.3 file names in the case of VST2 only.

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