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AdK Studios

Some issues that needs to be rectified as soon as possible

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>>Therefore, if I may ask, will it be possible to just represent something to differentiate between the individual MIDI clips. Don't want the other MIDI clips to disappear. Just a means to understand the boundaries of each MIDI clip. It will be great for drum programming, or anything that has a "loop" nature.

We’ll look into it for the future as well a mode to filter to selected data. CbB’s PRV is already very powerful to filter appropriate data if you show the pane on the right.

>>My Cakewalk buffer size is 512 Samples (10.7msec). It does change from that value <Under driver settings>
>>Number of Buffers 64 <Under playback and recording>
>>Driver Mode = ASIO

Number of buffers can’t be 64. For ASIO mode there is always a fixed number of 2. Can you post some screenshots of your audio settings in preferences? We’ll look at your project file.

Regarding your export requirements, you basically want a macro to export single tracks but through their destinations. In general automating this gets more complicated since tracks can route through many tracks via aux tracks and correspondingly tracks can be sourced by other tracks as well as sidechains. So its not as simple it may seem on the surface to provide this functionality. I’m curious why this is such a common requirement for your workflow - i.e. to export individual tracks through buses?

 

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1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

>>Therefore, if I may ask, will it be possible to just represent something to differentiate between the individual MIDI clips. Don't want the other MIDI clips to disappear. Just a means to understand the boundaries of each MIDI clip. It will be great for drum programming, or anything that has a "loop" nature.

Maybe this can be simple sulotion also for individual midi clips posibility to open them in other independent piano roll by some settings or click behaviour what is special for one clip or something like that where simple one clip midi editor. I like track midi editor but this can be simillar sulotion for people who like isolate midi clips and they can choose open them in track piano roll or independent piano roll for single clip editing. Also representation of differentation would be nice. For me personally it's not problem to select in loop and i can see which clip is which also when situation where clips near each other. But for them who want edit each clip individually maybe this can work or auto focus with zoom and loop points to clip where atleast one note selected from specific clip.

 

Edited by solarlux

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4 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

We’ll look into it for the future as well a mode to filter to selected data. CbB’s PRV is already very powerful to filter appropriate data if you show the pane on the right.

Thanks for the tip. I already use it extensively.

4 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Number of buffers can’t be 64. For ASIO mode there is always a fixed number of 2. Can you post some screenshots of your audio settings in preferences? We’ll look at your project file.

Preferences.thumb.jpg.a7adc1c83bbcbc8cd6d4ed68cfab429f.jpg
I said the number of Buffers from the 'Record' menu in 'Playback & Recording'.  It was my mistake. Sorry

4 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Regarding your export requirements, you basically want a macro to export single tracks but through their destinations. In general automating this gets more complicated since tracks can route through many tracks via aux tracks and correspondingly tracks can be sourced by other tracks as well as sidechains. So its not as simple it may seem on the surface to provide this functionality. I’m curious why this is such a common requirement for your workflow - i.e. to export individual tracks through buses?

I make beats for leasing. And there won't be any direct contact between me and the client. Since, I want to give the clients full control over the mixing, I prefer to give them track outs instead of stems. At the same time I want the tracks to be at the best mixed state (including the levels) so that they don't have to work on it again, or possibly ruin the vision. I work with a friend, who uses Cubase, and that too does not have the feature that I asked for (bus FX on track outs during export). However, there is a feature by which the producer can write bus processing onto the incoming tracks, printing them into new individual tracks, in one go.
I was kinda glad when I saw Cakewalk had that bus FX option in export window. Thought it might be a bug when it didn't work. Also, after you informed how it works, I looked at bouncing the tracks together inside the clips pane itself to see if anything like the "Cubase method" can be achieved in Cakewalk. But no...., bus processing can't be printed onto individual tracks in one go.

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Right the reason DAW’s dont provide it is because its not the traditional use of stems. Stems by definition are in isolation.
You basically want the equivalent of a track solo and bounce macro.

As far as your audio setup goes we don’t actively test or support ASIO4All. It is not a native ASIO driver and is simply wrapping WDM. 
I suggest getting a pro audio interface with good ASIO drivers. There are many inexpensive interfaces available such as those from Focusrite.

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8 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Right the reason DAW’s dont provide it is because its not the traditional use of stems. Stems by definition are in isolation.
You basically want the equivalent of a track solo and bounce macro.

I understand. May be someone might make a CAL function to do that. I might try it if and when I can code a CAL script

8 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

As far as your audio setup goes we don’t actively test or support ASIO4All. It is not a native ASIO driver and is simply wrapping WDM. 
I suggest getting a pro audio interface with good ASIO drivers. There are many inexpensive interfaces available such as those from Focusrite.

I'm actually disappointed to know that Cakewalk needs an audio interface to produce basic automated output with accuracy. The other 5 DAWs in the same system (without an audio interface) automated without any issue. Hope you found those outputs in the project that I submitted.

For the record, I did test out the other Audio Driver Modes { WDM/KS, WASAPI Exclusive, WASAPI Shared, MME (32bit) } with Cakewalk.

Let me share a personal view.

A lot of newbies will try out Cakewalk just because its free. I tried if for the same reason when I was a newbie. They necessarily won't be able to get an audio interface just so that Cakewalk can automate properly. This might turn them away from Cakewalk, making them look into the other free options.

I have been making videos involving production of different genres of music with Cakewalk. I had to limit my automation because Cakewalk couldn't handle it. I usually don't show the troubles I go through to get to the final result. But, when I share those videos, these are some of the responses I get

  1. That Pro Channel looks interesting
  2. I have tried Cakewalk, but found the MIDI editing to be clunky
  3. I have tried Cakewalk, but the automation is bad (not the actual output)
  4. Cakewalk is pretty good for recording and mixing, not for production

I just wanted to share what I was hearing as a Cakewalk "Youtuber".

Thanks anyway, for taking your time to look into these issues. Have a great day, sir.
-AdK

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6 hours ago, AdK Studios said:

I understand. May be someone might make a CAL function to do that. I might try it if and when I can code a CAL script

I'm actually disappointed to know that Cakewalk needs an audio interface to produce basic automated output with accuracy. The other 5 DAWs in the same system (without an audio interface) automated without any issue. Hope you found those outputs in the project that I submitted.

For the record, I did test out the other Audio Driver Modes { WDM/KS, WASAPI Exclusive, WASAPI Shared, MME (32bit) } with Cakewalk.

Let me share a personal view.

A lot of newbies will try out Cakewalk just because its free. I tried if for the same reason when I was a newbie. They necessarily won't be able to get an audio interface just so that Cakewalk can automate properly. This might turn them away from Cakewalk, making them look into the other free options.

I have been making videos involving production of different genres of music with Cakewalk. I had to limit my automation because Cakewalk couldn't handle it. I usually don't show the troubles I go through to get to the final result. But, when I share those videos, these are some of the responses I get

  1. That Pro Channel looks interesting
  2. I have tried Cakewalk, but found the MIDI editing to be clunky
  3. I have tried Cakewalk, but the automation is bad (not the actual output)
  4. Cakewalk is pretty good for recording and mixing, not for production

I just wanted to share what I was hearing as a Cakewalk "Youtuber".

Thanks anyway, for taking your time to look into these issues. Have a great day, sir.
-AdK

Midi etiting is very good.  I feel this piano roll best of all what i have used. Maybe they have less knowledge about piano roll of Cakewalk.They can also adjust colors similar to  piano roll which they used before.

About asio4all i agree because many don't have audio interfaces and especially who come from FL studio background they mostly used ASio4all.: ) FL studio users are many who want to  switch to Cakewalk.I know there need only little things what can encourage many from FL studio switching 100% to Cakewalk.

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7 hours ago, AdK Studios said:

I understand. May be someone might make a CAL function to do that. I might try it if and when I can code a CAL script

I'm actually disappointed to know that Cakewalk needs an audio interface to produce basic automated output with accuracy. The other 5 DAWs in the same system (without an audio interface) automated without any issue. Hope you found those outputs in the project that I submitted.

For the record, I did test out the other Audio Driver Modes { WDM/KS, WASAPI Exclusive, WASAPI Shared, MME (32bit) } with Cakewalk.

Let me share a personal view.

A lot of newbies will try out Cakewalk just because its free. I tried if for the same reason when I was a newbie. They necessarily won't be able to get an audio interface just so that Cakewalk can automate properly. This might turn them away from Cakewalk, making them look into the other free options.

I have been making videos involving production of different genres of music with Cakewalk. I had to limit my automation because Cakewalk couldn't handle it. I usually don't show the troubles I go through to get to the final result. But, when I share those videos, these are some of the responses I get

  1. That Pro Channel looks interesting
  2. I have tried Cakewalk, but found the MIDI editing to be clunky
  3. I have tried Cakewalk, but the automation is bad (not the actual output)
  4. Cakewalk is pretty good for recording and mixing, not for production

I just wanted to share what I was hearing as a Cakewalk "Youtuber".

Thanks anyway, for taking your time to look into these issues. Have a great day, sir.
-AdK

You misunderstood my statement about asio4all. Cakewalk want does NOT require a pro audio interface for rendering accurately. It never has.  

I was referring asio4all itself having a lot of compatibility issues because off the nature in which it operates. 

I'll have a better answer about the real source of your problems once we test and reproduce the issue.

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Better strumming options would be nice because my friend playing Harp and Need some improvements for guitar strumming for Harp etc in piano roll : )  Harp players would be happy : )818853122_strumoptions.jpg.7a87b8353137dc339daf665d3d53a33c.jpg

Edited by solarlux

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@AdK Studios I spent some time testing with your project. There are a few things I found that could lead to the inaccuracies you are seeing.

The main source of problems in the test project is that when you have a linear ramp it is subject to how often the ramp is being sampled. By default Cakewalk is set to sample automation points from the ramp at a frequency of 50 msec. This is likely too low frequency for your use case.

Please try lowering the AutomationDecimationMsec in prefs to something like 5 msec and try your test. For me it renders almost exactly like the other examples in your project. Of course there are minor differences in all the DAW's since the way they render automation is different. 

See attached screenshot with the setting. After changing it restart CbB and retest your project. You should hear that in during playback you won't hear aliasing problems with the filter sweep. This is also likely the cause of the accuracy issues you saw when doing rhythmic filter cutoffs in your video. Let me know your findings. 

I am also considering some changes that should make it independent of the decimation frequency for a future update.

 

decimation.PNG

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1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Please try lowering the AutomationDecimationMsec in prefs to something like 5 msec and try your test.

Yes this worked. Thank you so much.

I'm still hoping for the MIDI clip outlines of adjacent clips to be seen. But, its not a deal breaker. Since the main issue that I had with Cakewalk is fixed now, I have changed the video to unlisted (only a person with the link can view), in case the developers want to check it for any reference.

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

I am also considering some changes that should make it independent of the decimation frequency for a future update.

This might be something very much necessary, as I found another producer who switched away from Cakewalk because of the automation issue. The video is in hindi. At 2:10 he is talking about the slow response of automation. (The first issue he mentioned, was happening because he probably had MIDI output enabled on instrument tracks which was being picked up by other instrument tracks.)


Thanks again, for fixing the issue, that might have made me switch the DAW.

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@AdK Studios thats great to hear! We’ll defnitely make this more seamless and adaptive since the end user should not need to adjust these settings. This is most noticed when you are automating for percussive timing dependent sections where automation needs to be very tight rather than typical mixing applications which is why this hasnt been reported very much. Of course in electronic music this is an important device so we’ll improve this for next release. 

Once I have a build with the improvements I can share it with you to try. There are also areas that we can further improved this to make it more sample accurate.  BTW did you you try the change with sharp cutoffs like you show in your video? Does it resolve the issues you saw where mixdown would be different from what you were hearing as well? Let me know if there are any remaining problems you notice with automation.

Again thanks for reporting these issues directly to us and working with us on a resolution. In most cases we’re able to address problems very quickly, because we have rapid release cycles compared to most other DAW’s. Having reproducible cases from users is key to getting a quick resolution since many issues can be very workflow or system specific. Perhaps once you get a build with the improvements you can do another video showing how you use CbB in your electronic music productions ;) 
PS: Its good to see more Indian music creators/producers using our product.

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3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

BTW did you you try the change with sharp cutoffs like you show in your video?

I didn't check that. But, I'm pretty sure thats taken care of with this fix. I was actually holding back on the automation because of this issue. Since, its been solved, I'll try making an extremely automation influenced genre soon. After all, that is the best method of testing.

3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Does it resolve the issues you saw where mixdown would be different from what you were hearing as well?

This does not always happen. Its a 1/2 probability case. I have been keeping the sharp jumps a bit early than required, to compensate that. From now on, I don't have to. Will let you know how it goes after a while.

3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Let me know if there are any remaining problems you notice with automation.

I had problems while trying to Copy Special. Will note them during my testing. I have also be making notes on the things that I notice that can be improved.
As of now, these are the first three suggestions I have written down:

  1. Automation Curve Point to control the curve. Right now, we have to right click and can only choose between Jump, Linear, Fast and Slow. (Can also be considered for audio clip fades.
  2. Duplicate the selected automation by CTRL + D (Like any clip)
  3. Copy the selected automation by holding down CTRL and mouse drag.

Wrote those down just in case if they will be considered soon. There will be a separate post in this forum focused on automation improvement suggestions soon.

3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Perhaps once you get a build with the improvements you can do another video showing how you use CbB in your electronic music productions ;) 

I already have around 11 videos showing music production on 10 subgenres of EDM. Here is the playlist.
Here is the entire playlist with production of other genres. The early ones might look beginner-ish, 'cus I was a beginner back then.
I haven't mentioned the problems I have been going through to get to the final result in those videos. That is one of the reasons I had to make the last video. To stay true to my viewers. And also as a desperate attempt to keep using CbB, by getting the attention of Bandlab.

I was wondering if I should make a video showing the fix that you shared. But decided to just share it as a youtube post, since you said the following.

11 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

I am also considering some changes that should make it independent of the decimation frequency for a future update.

Oh, I would like to mention something I noticed.
In that video, I had asked the viewers to comment down their problems with Cakewalk. One of the issues that popped up repeatedly was the absence of a sampler.

Even though not deal breakers, I'll be posting a few suggestions that I think Cakewalk needs, to be "up-to-date". If and when those features get implemented, I might do a video stating Cakewalk as THE best free DAW.

Cheers

-AdK

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Thanks for the links. Videos are very good. Perhaps hold off on a new video about this since I hope to set the automation resolution adaptively in the next update rather than requiring a tweak. That way the video wont get obsolete. You can mention the tweak to the settings in your video notes or comments however.

Thanks for the suggestions. We are considering adding built in sampling at some point but no time frame yet.
I'm not sure what you mean by Automation Curve Point.

Re features, there is really no best DAW since every one has different workflows and preferences. Cakewalk has a massive feature set since we've been doing this for over 30 years. It really depends on whether the workflow resonates and lets you work efficiently. For the last 10 years we've been working on streamlining the workflow and of course improving stability.

PS: Another tip - Even if you are working at higher latency you can improve the automation tightness at render time by setting the BounceBufSizeMs value in preferences | Configuration file to a value like 5. That will force it to render at 5 millisecond buffers even though you may be playing back at a higher latency.

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1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Automation Curve Point.

He is referring to a "control point" that typically defines a continuous automation lane. Creating a linear or discrete lane. 

It alters a Sine, gate, wave, pulse, step, stairs and step filters, all with snap notes using a control point within the automation lane that you either drag up/down, OR, left/right to create your Step/Snap Filter, OR, "Gate step." In EDM, it's also being used with Sidechaining for ducking the bassline/synth strings.

Currently we have to manually draw this in. 

This is actually one thing cakewalk do not have. We can't create a tremolo effect with Automation. 

 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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7 hours ago, Kevin Perry said:

You can:

image.png.dc0222e26ae2b233d655c3c3b13e90c4.png

It could be better, but it's there.

Aware of that.

Hence to why I said: Currently we have to "Draw" this in, but still far off from what "Automation Curve Points are." 

20210205_093649-1.jpg.1b3c0691f322125273944858ddb1af22.jpg

Top right: Control Point.

Bottom Left and Right: Curve Points

A curve point is created by the "Control Point." 

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10 minutes ago, Kevin Perry said:

Which is unrelated to doing a tremolo.  I agree Bezier type curves would be nice to have.

How is it unrelated to creating a tremolo, when you can turn it into one? 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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Because we can do a tremolo now with the tools we have.  One does not need control points to do that.

Would I like curves like that?  Yes.  Are they relevant to this specific point?  No.

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11 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

He is referring to a "control point" that typically defines a continuous automation lane.

Sorry, but that wasn't what I was trying to say. My terminology must have been confusing. My apologies.

 

13 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Automation Curve Point.

Right now, we are limited to 4 types of curves in automation. One of them is jump and another is linear, leaving only two actual curves, available between two nodes (fast or slow). They can't be edited too, unless we add more nodes in between the two nodes.

1809653527_Automationlimit.png.5d1b2d7db44f29cf2bcaf28b87f4c353.png


The following is what I meant by automation curve point. My terminology might not have been right.

Linear should be able to do the S curves with that point.
Other curves that can be considered to be revealed on a right click are S Curve and Bezier curve; These are not actually necessities. Just wanted to put it out there.

And it will also be great to have this "curve points" on the fades of audio clips.

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