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PcMacsterRace

Using Velocity Sensitivity To Layer Other Patches in Nucleus Orchestral Core Lite

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Posted (edited)

I just bought Nucleus Orchestral Core Lite and I was wondering about something. I want to be able to layer different multi patches and use velocity to bring in different multi patches so that I can have 1 MIDI track and potentially 1 instance Kontakt and make it sound like an entire orchestra. 

To do this, I want to be able to have strings come in at 1-127 velocity, woodwinds at around 64-127 velocity and brass at around 100-127 velocity (and other stuff if needed). The problem is that I can't seem to figure out a way to do this. 

I tried to go into the instrument settings and change the minimum velocity range, however when I am playing the note under the set minimum velocity range, the note doesn't play until I let go of the key on the keyboard in which it makes a staccato note, which is what I don't want (I want the instrument to not make a sound at all when I play the note under the set minimum velocity range).

Is there a way I can make it so I can use velocity sensitivity to layer other patches (either with Kontakt or maybe done in Cakewalk independently itself someway so that I could use velocity sensitivity to layer other VSTs that cannot be loaded into Kontakt if I so wanted. I also wouldn't mind needing to use multiple instances of Kontakt to make it work), or if there no other options besides using the velocity range inside Kontakt, is there a way to fix the minimum velocity range so that when I play a note with velocity under the set minimum velocity range it doesn't make a sound at all?

Edited by PcMacsterRace

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I don't know to specifically do what you want, but you can isolate velocity ranges for editing using Process>Find/Change. Here's how I would do it. Duplicate the MIDI track so I'd have a track for every synth I wanted to play a certain velocity range and use Find/Change to select the notes in the range I DON'T want playing in that track and delete them. When I was done I'd have multiple MIDI tracks containing only the notes within the range I want each synth to play, and then assign those MIDI tracks to the synths I want to play them. Not very elegant but it would work.

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3 hours ago, Chappel said:

I don't know to specifically do what you want, but you can isolate velocity ranges for editing using Process>Find/Change. Here's how I would do it. Duplicate the MIDI track so I'd have a track for every synth I wanted to play a certain velocity range and use Find/Change to select the notes in the range I DON'T want playing in that track and delete them. When I was done I'd have multiple MIDI tracks containing only the notes within the range I want each synth to play, and then assign those MIDI tracks to the synths I want to play them. Not very elegant but it would work.

This is not what I want though. I basically want to be able to playback a note harder or softer to layer other patches within Kontakt (like if I playback a note hard, then woodwinds would come in, and even harder would bring in brass for example).

Basically what this guy is doing with Kontakt 5 was EWQL libraries

 https://youtube.com/watch?v=vIkJjbXTCNk

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That making a sound on release sounds weird to me.

There is another method, but a bit of a schlepp.
In Kontakt, select the instrument you want to modify.
Click on the spanner to left of the instrument GUI.
Just below the GUI is a button Mapping Editor. Click on it.
You get a visual method of adjusting the minimum and maximum response velocity for each note in the instruments playable range.
Just above the display, under the button List View, is K. Range. This is keyboard range.
If you hover the mouse over the righthand note name there is an updown control.
Use this to extend the selected notes on the display. They go from cyan to yellow.
Use the mouse to drag the bottom and top edges up and down. The velocity values are shown next to the keyboard range.

This will work for any instrument in Kontakt.

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Posted (edited)

Would Midi FX meet your needs--for example, different plug-ins (virtual instruments) on different tracks each with its own velocity range?  Not ideal, esp. if there is a solution just using Kontakt, but it might meet your needs.  

Edited by User 905133
to add a link to online documentation

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26 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

That making a sound on release sounds weird to me.

There is another method, but a bit of a schlepp.
In Kontakt, select the instrument you want to modify.
Click on the spanner to left of the instrument GUI.
Just below the GUI is a button Mapping Editor. Click on it.
You get a visual method of adjusting the minimum and maximum response velocity for each note in the instruments playable range.
Just above the display, under the button List View, is K. Range. This is keyboard range.
If you hover the mouse over the righthand note name there is an updown control.
Use this to extend the selected notes on the display. They go from cyan to yellow.
Use the mouse to drag the bottom and top edges up and down. The velocity values are shown next to the keyboard range.

This will work for any instrument in Kontakt.

Sadly, I can't try this since I am only using Kontakt Player and not the full version.

 

20 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

Would Midi FX meet your needs--for example, different plug-ins (virtual instruments) on different tracks each with its own velocity range?  Not ideal, esp. if there is a solution just using Kontakt, but it might meet your needs.  

This almost would've worked, the Velocity plugin didn't do what I wanted, however the Event Filter Plugin is exactly what I want. When I turn on the Notes Event selection to try and filter the Velocity, if I play under the set Min Velocity, it doesn't play a note at all. Perfect. However, the problem is when I play within the set min and max velocity, it just plays that note indefinitely until I turn off the Note Event Selection or the plugin itself and hit that same note again. Any idea on how to fix this?

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1 minute ago, PcMacsterRace said:

This almost would've worked, the Velocity plugin didn't do what I wanted, however the Event Filter Plugin is exactly what I want. 

The event filter was the one I had in mind. I am testing right now with Surge. It would surprise me if the plug-in uses note off velocity.

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3 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

The event filter was the one I had in mind. I am testing right now with Surge. It would surprise me if the plug-in uses note off velocity.

Yeah but like I said, the problem is when I play within the set min and max velocity, it just plays that note indefinitely until I turn off the Note Event Selection or the plugin itself and hit that same note again. Playing under the set min velocity is fine though. Any way to fix this?

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, PcMacsterRace said:

Yeah but like I said, the problem is when I play within the set min and max velocity, it just plays that note indefinitely until I turn off the Note Event Selection or the plugin itself and hit that same note again. Playing under the set min velocity is fine though. Any way to fix this?

I have set up 3 surge tracks so far and not having the issue yet.  I do not have a middle velocity section track yet.  If I understand, that is where the problem is right?

EDIT: Issue Confirmed.  I think we need input from someone with more detailed knowledge than I have; but I will continue to play with this. 

I have an ancient virtual sampler that allows for velocity switching. I would assume Kontakt has that ability, too, but I rarely use even my free NI instruments.  If someone knows how to set velocity ranges in Kontakt, I think that would be better than this MFX work around. 

image.png.4bcd583fed37baa107acd84c62d0d0a0.png

 

 

 

Edited by User 905133
to confirm the max-min range issue

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

I have set up 3 surge tracks so far and not having the issue yet.  I do not have a middle velocity section track yet.  If I understand, that is where the problem is right?

I have no idea what a "middle velocity section track" is. However, I did find out it's only an issue when I'm playing notes on my Midi controller. For some reason, it works perfectly during playback (which honestly maybe is the fault of my midi controller, which is the Akai MPK Mini MK2. Maybe using a different Midi controller would fix the issue)

If it helps, here's a video showing my setup and the bug in question in action

 

Edited by PcMacsterRace
Spelling mistake

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2 minutes ago, PcMacsterRace said:

I have no idea what a "middle velocity section track" is. However, I did found out it's only an issue when I'm playing notes on my Midi controller. For some reason, it works perfectly during playback (which honestly maybe is the fault of my midi controller, which is the Akai MPK Mini MK2. Maybe using a different Midi controller would fix the issue)

Sorry. I used that phrase to refer to "a track with a MIDI FX Event Filter where the velocity range chosen is in the middle a (e.g., 50-93 as pictured) as opposed to being at the low end (e.g., 0 to 80) or the high end (e.g., 50 to 127)."  

Good to know its only an issue using a controller.  I had the same problem as you with a different controller. I suspect it will be a problem with any controller.  I have seen other issues with the way Cakewalk handles live midi data.  (I gave up trying to get Cakewalk's Inspector-based Arpeggiator to respond properly to remote control midi data.)

Glad to see you found a workaround. As for me, I have a software sampler that lets me layer samples.  However, using the filter would be quicker for me than re-tooling a multi-sample preset. So, thanks for the solution and for the video.  

 

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1 minute ago, User 905133 said:

Sorry. I used that phrase to refer to "a track with a MIDI FX Event Filter where the velocity range chosen is in the middle a (e.g., 50-93 as pictured) as opposed to being at the low end (e.g., 0 to 80) or the high end (e.g., 50 to 127)."  

Good to know its only an issue using a controller.  I had the same problem as you with a different controller. I suspect it will be a problem with any controller.  I have seen other issues with the way Cakewalk handles live midi data.  (I gave up trying to get Cakewalk's Inspector-based Arpeggiator to respond properly to remote control midi data.)

Glad to see you found a workaround. As for me, I have a software sampler that lets me layer samples.  However, using the filter would be quicker for me than re-tooling a multi-sample preset. So, thanks for the solution and for the video.  

 

Your welcome. If anyone else has a better solution or a solution to any of our problems (either the making a sound on release when playing below min set velocity range inside Kontakt, or the infinite sustain cause by playing a note using a midi controller with the note event selection Midi FX on) then please let us know

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Posted (edited)

Hope you don't mind my sharing some additional details about the problem with using the Midi Event Filter as described above.

So far as I can tell,

  • the filter acts on midi input
  • the problem is because the note-off [aka note on with a velocity of zero] doesn't get passed on from the filter
    • for any filtered note where min vel > 0
Edited by User 905133

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So quick update. For some reason, the glitch where infinite sustain caused by playing a note using a midi controller with the note event selection Midi FX on also takes effect when using virtual midi drivers like LoopMIDI and Loopbe. So sadly, I do need either a fix for that issue or another solution to trigger a vst inside a certain velocity range because it means I can't use multiple VSTs and use only 1 midi track unless I want that infinite sustain (which I obviously do not want). If anyone else can chime in and help, that would be greatly appreciated.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, PcMacsterRace said:

So quick update. For some reason, the glitch where infinite sustain caused by playing a note using a midi controller with the note event selection Midi FX on also takes effect when using virtual midi drivers like LoopMIDI and Loopbe. So sadly, I do need either a fix for that issue or another solution to trigger a vst inside a certain velocity range because it means I can't use multiple VSTs and use only 1 midi track unless I want that infinite sustain (which I obviously do not want). If anyone else can chime in and help, that would be greatly appreciated.

I am not sure that there is a bug with the MIDI Event Filter itself.  It seems to do what it claims to do.  Rather it seems to me it is not the solution you want. 

I think it could be usable for this purpose if there were an option to handle special cases for note events where vel = 0 and those events are being filtered.

I am not sure that improvements will be made to MFX by the developers, but maybe it is something @Variorum  (or someone else who writes MFX) can do.

Edited by User 905133

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

I am not sure that there is a bug with the MIDI Event Filter itself.  It seems to do what it claims to do.  Rather it seems to me it is not the solution you want. 

I think it could be usable for this purpose if there were an option to handle special cases for note events where vel = 0 and those events are being filtered.

I am not sure that improvements will be made to MFX by the developers, but maybe it is something @Variorum  (or someone else who writes MFX) can do.

There is 1 potential solution I found that may work for what I need to do. Essentially, I can just link the clips I paste into each of the VSTs and then use the Event Filter to filter the velocities I don't want since for some reason the infinite sustain glitch doesn't happen when the midi track's output goes directly into the VST rather than the output of the midi track going to a virtual MIDI driver and then the VST having that midi driver as it's input like we found out (I honestly don't think it's doing what it's supposed to do, I honestly think it's a glitch in my opinion). It's not a perfect solution for me because for every new clip I make I have to remember to link it to each of the VSTs, but at least it's a solution

Edited by PcMacsterRace

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24 minutes ago, PcMacsterRace said:

So quick update. For some reason, the glitch where infinite sustain caused by playing a note using a midi controller with the note event selection Midi FX on also takes effect when using virtual midi drivers like LoopMIDI and Loopbe. So sadly, I do need either a fix for that issue or another solution to trigger a vst inside a certain velocity range because it means I can't use multiple VSTs and use only 1 midi track unless I want that infinite sustain (which I obviously do not want). If anyone else can chime in and help, that would be greatly appreciated.

Instead of using a virtual MIDI cable duplicate the MIDI track with "Link to Original Clip(s)" enabled. Right-click the duplicate tracks button for its options or use the menu option.

 

edit: I see you figured out the link clips solution.

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1 minute ago, scook said:

Instead of using a virtual MIDI cable duplicate the MIDI track with "Link to Original Clip(s)" enabled. Right-click the duplicate tracks button for its options or use the menu option.

Yeah, I just posted above saying it is a solution for what I am looking for. Not a perfect solution because I have to remember to link the clips every time I create a new one, but it is a solution that works, I would probably just have to get used to an extra step. Thanks though

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The link option in copy is persistent.

Should be pretty clear where a clip is missing on a track although it might be just as easy to duplicate the track periodically to sync them up.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, User 905133 said:

I am not sure that there is a bug with the MIDI Event Filter itself.  It seems to do what it claims to do.  Rather it seems to me it is not the solution you want. 

I think it could be usable for this purpose if there were an option to handle special cases for note events where vel = 0 and those events are being filtered.**

I am not sure that improvements will be made to MFX by the developers, but maybe it is something @Variorum  (or someone else who writes MFX) can do.

**Or, if the velocity filter range scale went from 1 to 127 and all notes where vel = 0 were sent along the midi signal path w/o regard to the range setting.

 I am having a hard time imaging cases/scenarios where I would want to filter out all note offs. 

You have me wondering if earlier versions of SONAR behaved the same way--that the midi event filter allowed for all note offs [note ons where vel = 0] to be ignored.

Edited by User 905133
to fix a typo

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