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Vernon Barnes

What Streaming Services Pay Artists

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1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

why are you putting it on a streaming service?

what do you class as a "streaming service?"

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

he gave it away for free

nice

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

and gave away thousands and thousands of CDs

really?

I don't think I'd have ever done that

a couple... a dozen, perhaps

must have cost a fortune to rip and then distribute all those CDs

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

Having your music up on a streaming service does not guarantee someone will listen to it.

obviously

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

why not do what I often do - give it all away for free

personally I have been doing this for a long, long while

1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

(I've done it myself as a way of saying thanks)

I've tried giving my stuff away on Bandcamp but many want to give me money instead

2 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

unless it is (in a little way) about the prestige of making a few bucks off your music....and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Just admit it to yourself, is all I'm saying

for me, personally, Bandcamp was an experiment

up until setting up there everything I ever created was uploaded to SoundCloud and set to free download

after a while I noticed that I was getting a lot of my stuff downloaded... not like hundreds or thousands but a lot more than I expected

so Bandcamp was set up to see if people were happy to pay for downloading my stuff

prestige?

nah, definitely not, not me

2 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

we shouldn't kid ourselves about our motives

as this is a lengthy post especially for me, what do you think my motives are?

making a ton of money off my art would be great, but it certainly isn't my motive

I think it is something I simply must do

I've done other things through my life... fishing... photography... motorcycling... barefoot waterskiing... had a load of doggies...

but I always end up back in my little studio, making sound stuff

 

2 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

And we shouldn't kid ourselves that it is in any way the route to being heard

absolutely

but it is a nice feeling when you know that someone is listening, and, probably enjoying that experience, right?

prior to 2000 I would sometimes hand over a tape to a friend or work colleague

that didn't go well... I do not create anything for "the masses" and I gave up on friends and family a long time ago, except for my poor sons that sometimes have to endure listening to something every now and then, and my poor, poor wife who lives in the same house as me.

never stopped me doing stuff, though

On 7/18/2020 at 12:12 PM, Vernon Barnes said:

I really don't expect to make anything out of music, its a hobby, but I am considering putting the project I am currently working on, which is somewhat different, and I hope better than the stuff on my Soundcloud on Bandcamp as an EP.  If so I will be trying to drum up some sort of local interest because of the background story to the songs.

And as you can see, @Philip G Hunt, from Glyn's quote above, he appears to have decided on a route that quite a few of us take, upload to Bandcamp, see how that goes... charge for it or not, it doesn't matter. 

 

right... been at this too long now so I'm going to hit the Submit Reply button... my new drone is begging for my attention...

 

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On 7/19/2020 at 7:48 PM, Bapu said:

So streaming payments are like pi$$ing in a stream?

 

Makes little difference in the big picture.

Yes but you will know it was you who pi$$ed in the stream even if no one else notices. Just the satisfaction alone is worth it.

.....I hope he was downstream when he did it 😦

I could also be my own streaming  service. There's a local volunteer fire company down the street and I thought maybe I could donate my streaming expertise in case the truck runs low on water.

On a word, online music sales for  commoners (like us)....dismal. Even if my music was all good stuff it's not easy. 

Doesn't work well as an ego boost for me either. I be like, "Look, there's my CD on Amazon! Rated number 1000050006578342.6 under number one. " It's easier to find water in the Sahara than my CD on Amazon. Heck I can't even find it.

 

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the main difference is that streaming is on-demand, so you can listen when you like, whereas old radio had to be recorded to cassette tape for such pleasures - -there's no reason anyone should buy the product, but the streaming services don;t care about that (or the artist)

***** spotify (et al) x

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18 minutes ago, pwalpwal said:

the main difference is that streaming is on-demand, so you can listen when you like, whereas old radio had to be recorded to cassette tape for such pleasures - -there's no reason anyone should buy the product, but the streaming services don;t care about that (or the artist)

***** spotify (et al) x

This exactly.

Streaming is not the new radio, it replaces the need to buy CD's or downloads. The whole idea that you can have access to all the music in the world anytime you want for $9.99 a month is the draw for the punter. But is that sustainable in the long term? 

as for playing live, certainly in the UK grass roots music venues were under threat, even before COVID. There are less and less places for artists to play live. Less opertunity to make a living form playing live while there are less opportunities to make money from recorded music, I am a hobbiest, so its not a threat to my livelihood but there are thousands of musicians who are probably going to leave the industry unless something changes.  Welcome to the Simon Cowell world of music uniformity.

For exposure Radio (including Internet radio) is much better, you stand a chance of reaching people who would not have gone looking for your music. 

 

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4 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

So, if fun was the real aim here, why not do what I often do - give it all away for free. If you have bandcamp, you can give everything away for free - you can even gift your music directly to people yourself from bandcamp (I've done it myself as a way of saying thanks). You don't have to charge - you don't even need to know who got it for free (don't request email)....unless it is (in a little way) about the prestige of making a few bucks off your music....and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Just admit it to yourself, is all I'm saying.

This is a very all-or-nothing attitude. I don’t know if Bandcamp lets the purchaser pay what they want, but if not you could charge on one site and give away for free on another – a busker doesn’t charge you to listen to their material, but there is a hat there if you like what you’re hearing and want to contribute.

Putting something out there doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re looking to profit from it (even though it might be nice); different people have different goals. Looking at another field, why are there free plugins? Why are there open source software libraries? Why do some open source libraries have a ‘buy me a coffee’ button, instead of insisting on buying a license to use them?

You seem to be very passionate on this topic, and from your responses it seems as if you would like to earn more from the music that you write. I mention this simply as a suggestion, but have you explored the library-music route?

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Bandcamp has a pay what you want option. IIRC is you download for free you don't get the track added to your online library so you can't stream it.

From a customer point of view I like that Bandcamp let's you down load WAV and FLAC formats as well as MP3. Artists also use it as a shop for CD, DVD and merchandise. 

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25 minutes ago, antler said:

Putting something out there doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re looking to profit from it (even though it might be nice); different people have different goals. Looking at another field, why are there free plugins? Why are there open source software libraries? Why do some open source libraries have a ‘buy me a coffee’ button, instead of insisting on buying a license to use them?

You seem to be very passionate on this topic, and from your responses it seems as if you would like to earn more from the music that you write. I mention this simply as a suggestion, but have you explored the library-music route?

I totally agree with you - putting something out does not necessarily mean you are looking to profit from it, but if you are putting your music up on a streaming service such as Apple/Spotify/Tidal etc.. it always comes back to why? If profit is not the aim then is it exposure? If exposure is not the aim is it bragging rights? Perhaps it is all of these, but the simple truth is, if it is to get the most number of people to listen to your music as possible...streaming services do not offer you that.  The simple truth is that. Streaming services are like 'the right to pursue happiness' - it promises everything and offers nothing.

Yes, I have gone the library music route before. I'm in a library (making no money) and I've approached lots of libraries without much luck.  I was a member of Taxi for years - not much luck there.

When I was starting out, the aim of every musician/singer friend of mine was to get a record deal and release a single. After doing that, you need other aims.  Release an album with a label. After that - create a catalog so that you have a passive income in the furture - that's the business plan. Take the UK band Chumbawamber - they probably never set out hoping their songs would still be paying them money from placements in tv shows and ads 20 years later.....but they are.  

I would love to be making a passive income from my work - but I know I'm past that point now. My current aim is in a different direction. Ad hoc audio scores. I'm already working on stuff. Putting things out.  Making traction. A plan....everyone needs a plan

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4 minutes ago, Philip G Hunt said:

it always comes back to why?

Sometimes, because you enjoy doing it. Nothing more than that. :)

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Wibbles said:

Sometimes, because you enjoy doing it. Nothing more than that. :)

...so why does it need to be heard by an audience? 

The moment we publish something and it goes from our bedrooms to the outside world we can no longer 'claim' it is just for fun.  The making was the fun part - the publishing? Of course we all want people to say - 'that's the great' - or to pay a few bucks for out efforts - that is when we need to accept, the just for fun part is in the making, but if we are making for ourselves and no-one else, quality is not an issue, equipment is not an issue. So why do we up the quality? Because somewhere in the back of our minds, we are really making it to be heard by other people.  ;)

I started out in the fine art world before moving to music. It's the same deal - you make work for an audience, without an audience, the work might as well not exist.

Edited by Philip G Hunt

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So you don't want a serious discussion on the topic - I get that.  

But I'm currently coming out of months of depression, so I want to rant - nothing personal against you. ;)

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1 hour ago, Philip G Hunt said:

without an audience, the work might as well not exist

total bollocks

unless, of course, you are coming from a quantum physics angle

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2 minutes ago, synkrotron said:

total bollocks

unless, of course, you are coming from a quantum physics angle

Define total bollocks then...from a quantum physics angle.

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the irony here is we both think paid streaming services are crap

and as I said in my first post I don't use them

I think I'll leave it there

have a nice day

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25 minutes ago, synkrotron said:

the irony here is we both think paid streaming services are crap

and as I said in my first post I don't use them

I think I'll leave it there

have a nice day

No bad blood here - I understood that you don't like Streaming services - I think the misunderstanding is that you thought my first post on the thread was aimed at you. It wasn't, it was in response to the opening post to the thread. You kind of jumped on that post, played the cynic and I just pushed back from there. 

No hard feelings. ;)

Have a good day.

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3 hours ago, antler said:

I don’t know if Bandcamp lets the purchaser pay what they want...

Yes, they do!  And, as someone who actually owns every one of Andy's albums (as well as those from the band he played in), I can say that they definitely are NOT worth what he's asking for them! 😜

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7 hours ago, synkrotron said:

 

currently busy working on my next fifteen minute long masterpiece

Going for the radio-friendly short song?  😄

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3 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

The moment we publish something and it goes from our bedrooms to the outside world we can no longer 'claim' it is just for fun. 

I don't think that's necessarily true. I do it so that if anyone ever asks me about what I write I can point them to somewhere where they can find out, without me needing to give them an .mp3 file. I don't actively seek people and tell them to listen to my stuff, unless it's for feedback for the purpose of my own personal development. Also, while this is definitely not the best way to do it, it also serves as a backup for your finished tracks.

 

3 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

Of course we all want people to say - 'that's the great' - or to pay a few bucks for out efforts - that is when we need to accept, the just for fun part is in the making, but if we are making for ourselves and no-one else, quality is not an issue, equipment is not an issue. So why do we up the quality? Because somewhere in the back of our minds, we are really making it to be heard by other people.  ;)

Not true for me either. I up the quality because when I hear something in my head that I want realised, I want it to sound as close as possible to what I had imagined. To parallel other subjects, why do golf enthusiasts buy better clubs? Do they feel that one day they will end up playing and winning in the major tournaments? Why do cycle enthusiasts want a better bike? Do they feel that they will be able to win the Olympics for their country one day? Maybe 'yes' in some cases, but I suspect 'no' in more.

 

3 hours ago, Philip G Hunt said:

I started out in the fine art world before moving to music. It's the same deal - you make work for an audience, without an audience, the work might as well not exist.

Only if your aim is to gain attention/money. The creation process itself has been found to release chemicals in the brain associated with positive feelings; the process of art creation is a worthwhile act in itself. If the creator feels better for doing so, why does it matter if there's an audience? Also, art is a form of self expression. Writing some music to capture your feelings, and looking back on it one day is no different to taking photos for posterity; I imagine that there are photos that people took without sharing to the world (especially in days before social media) - what would be the point of those?

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