azslow3

I was corrected. I forgot to mention "no audio" case.

Cakewalk always use audio as long as audio interface is configured and used, otherwise soft synths couldn't produce the sound. But till there is  something in the project with audio time reference, the sample rate can be switched.
Cakewalk is "sample accurate" DAW (not all DAWs are like that), all audio times in the project are saved as a sample number. If there are no such "markers" at all, there is no problem to change. But once there is at least one, it has to be recalculated on change and Cakewalk doesn't have the code to do this. That is not something easy to add. In fact "perfect" recalculation is not possible at all, till the sample rate is changing from 48kHz to 96kHz (or other "perfect" up-sampling).

@Dave G better keep Windows and Cakewalk at exactly the same sample rate. Set to whatever you like your final files should be.

3 hours ago, Antre said:

no antivirus software

short video of the issue:

Yes, unusual. And it doesn't look like coming for mastering plug-ins. While they also delay things, the result is visually different (also bypassing FX works for them).

One more simple check: unset all audio in/outs in Cakewalk preferences, so no audio drivers are used. Check playback reaction.

Also check the system activity during start/stop (HDD LED, Windows task manager and resource meter, looking for spikes in disk or CPU usage). Also there can be issues with GPU drivers, but in last 20 years you have probably changed many GPUs...

If you was moving your Sonar/Cakewalk configuration from system to system, may be it is worse to try run Cakewalk in empty content, f.e. under different user.

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Although it may seem that the hierarchy is Tracks->Lanes->Clips, this isn't actually the case under the hood: Clips are directly owned by the tracks.

I know... But "tracks->lanes->clips" is "objective reality we can sense", and so we better think it is "real" (according to Lenin) 😉
Just keeping in mind that a lane is not a track nor a clip.

I mean many things under the hood are not what we intuitively think they are or should be. So lifting the hood can be quite confusing (from my adventure into CWP structure).😏

It can be coincidence, but I had the issue ONCE. And it was on Win 8.1, after I have installed ASIO4ALL. All interfaces (that time M-Audio, SB Live and Realtek) in all modes was behaving "not normal". There was delays in playback start and I had to increase the buffer size. Uninstalling ASIO4ALL (and reinstalling other drivers) has not helped. I could not find a reason nor a single tip in the Internet. The problem has disappeared after the next major Windows update (I was lucky, it was just 1 week later).
Since I have not understood from where it was, I can't give you any advise if the origin is the same.

But since you has that since 20 year on all systems, the origin is probably different. And no, Cakewalk is not made to work like this.

• before any future tests/investigations, make sure "Share Drivers With Other Programs" is unchecked in Cakewalk preferences, Windows audio is not pointing to the same device (for input or output), set the sample rate in Windows settings for audio interface as in current Cakewalk project,  close all other programs.
• Since with single track/clip you have no delay, try to find the operation which introduce the delays. Duplicate that single track, every time checking there is still no delay. Try to record new clips. Important: don't just import clips, depending from settings that can trigger real-time bit-rate conversion which in turn under some conditions can trigger the effect. Do not add any effects yet, do not activate anything in ProChannel. Depending from the possibility to have no delay with 20-30 simple tracks you can later narrow what you can check.

BTW what is your Antivirus/Antimalware software? Have you excluded Cakewalk as the program and related files as folders from continuous monitoring by Antivirus/Antimalware?  While you can think that is unrelated, many people are using the same antivirus company for decades... and when it performs scans on every file access, that can introduce interesting "freezes" in operations (depending from the software, in my experience Windows Defender is most transparent in that respect... well.. not with Melodyne...).

9 hours ago, Keni said:

This topic is difficult it seems. I was initially very disturbed when we went from layers to lanes. I know many people think of lanes as multiple takes of a live performer, but often it is purely a place to jigsaw selected clips for use as a single track.

So, you definitively use take lanes as tracks. And tracks without some features (in this case FX chains) are not as user friendly as "normal" tracks. So I think logical question is what exactly should be added to normal tracks so you can switch to them from take lanes? I mean what is the feature of take lanes representation in Cakewalk which force you use them instead of tracks? It can happened other will agree that feature(s) is(are) nice...

That was mentioned (also by me) in this tread several times. But I want express that point (really the fact) in other words. Take Lane is not a Track and it is not a Clip. It is different "thing" for different purpose. It is container for Clips, and only that. And that is the only logical container for Clips, Tracks are containers for Take Lanes, Clips are not inside Tracks directly (BTW advantages and consequences of allowing that can be observed in NI Maschine 2, I mean the introduction of "clips" in Arranger view which are not present in Ideas view).
Note how different (from Track) Take Lane react on all operations. I mean Solo, Mute, Record-arm, etc. Everything is "optimized" for single goal, to record/select multiple takes. Solo and Record-arm are exclusive, take lanes are auto-created as needed, recorded clip lands into "empty" space of existing lane, clips auto-muted, comping tool, etc.

I understand that you try to use them for different purpose and so you ask to optimize them for different purpose. I just fail to understand what is wrong with normal Tracks for you. Long time ago there was a wish to group Tracks visually, so folders was introduced. Later there was complain  Buses are in a separate pane and so visually difficult to match with corresponding tracks, but  Aux Tracks can be used to solve that. May be you have yet another good idea for tracks, which I just have not understood yet 

As you can guess, most user don't have such issue with Cakewalk.

But there can be several reasons (and combinations of them) why you observe it. Please specify: your audio interface, Windows version, audio settings in Cakewalk (driver model and the buffer related numbers), what is approximate delay if the project has one track with single audio clip, does the delay on real project changes if you disable all FXes and either you use or have ever installed ASIO4ALL on this computer. Then the list of suggestions what to check/change/update can be reasonably small.

Sample Rate is important. Any project  has fixed sample rate and it can't be changed. So, if your project is already 44.1kHz, you can't change it later. That is why the setting is called "Default for New Project", that is one time decision at the project creation. Also Cakewalk use the audio interface with current project sample rate (only). For several reasons, if you always use the same Sample Rate in Cakewalk better set the same in Windows. 

Bit depth of everything can be changed any time. And it can be different for different settings at the same time. Obviously the change has no influence on already recorded material, if you have recorded in 16bit, the file will stay 16bit after you change the setting to 24bit.

Cakewalk internally process in 32bit (floating point) or 64bit (if 64bit engine setting is activated). Normally render bit depth should be 32bit. 32bit engine data will be saved "as is" and in case of 64bit engine, 32bits  is still sufficient (extreme and artificial processing is required to produce any difference in sound between 32bit and 64bit files, such processing is never used in real projects).

But record bit depth should be as high as your audio interface support. Most interfaces support 24bit. Note that 16/24bit are fixed point numbers, audio interfaces always sample into fixed point numbers (even so drivers in some modes can transfer the data as 32bit and some interfaces claim they are 32bit). Real bit depth is around 20bit on good interfaces, extra bits are just noise (if you know SNR or Dynamic Range of your interface, you can estimate meaningful bit depth by dividing this number by 6). But every single bit is around 6dB, which you can have as a "headroom" during recording to get equivalent precision.
Note that record bit depth is not used till you record audio (probably the case in your setup with Realtek).

1 hour ago, Keni said:

Of course a workaround would be to separate to more tracks, then repeat all the other processing etc. a lot of extra load.

Processing order doesn’t change. Any active clips in such a lane get the lanefx processed as clipfx. Simply a way to organize multiple clips needing such.

Putting FX on a take lane is using it as a track. Making a separate track from that take is not a workaround in such case, it is the way Cakewalk is designed. Sure "repeating" processing is not the way to go, original track and this new track should be routed  to a bus where common processing happens.
Technically that will not complicate signal routing nor produce extra load.

Clips are on "another level".  Achieving the same effect as clip FX without corresponding feature require creating a separate track for every clip.  So that had to be called a workaround.

PS. in one other DAW takes are strictly property of a clip, they always have the size of the clip and only one take can be active. That effectively prevents "misusing" them for other purpose 😀 But in that DAW tracks are hierarchical (any track is also a bus and there is just one  track type, which process arbitrary number of MIDI and Audio channels). Every DAW has own view how things should be organized.

On 9/13/2022 at 1:00 PM, Philip G Hunt said:

...because the thing I need most on my audio interface is RGB LED lighting   

Looks like they are designing these specifically for the streaming community, so they can look 'purdy in their videos.

Nope... these RGB LED feature is NOT the same as for gaming motherboards an GPUs.

It is more toward RGB LED use on Ableton (and some other) controllers, you can configure how buttons/faders/VU-meters should indicate its status. F.e. I wish my NI keyboard has such feature, depending from ambient light I have troubles to see the status of some buttons...

These interfaces, if they work stable, can be a good alternative to some Zoom and Rode devices. If someone will try to explain inexperienced person how to use RME to record  a podcast, he will soon realize then even the best music interfaces is pure choice for that purpose.

But  from the specification and the documentation it is clear that music creation is not the selling point.

I think at the moment there is a wish to insert "take lane FX", it is time to create a separate track from that take

I think the idea behind takes is to make a choice between different versions of the content. It can happened some particular clip needs processing to "match" the rest. But if all clips on the lane need the same processing and it is different from all other lanes, this lane is not just "random" collection of versions.

I have written "random" because some parts can be recorded 2 times, some 5 times and other just 1 time. So "Lane 3" as a whole has almost no meaning when take lanes are used as "take lanes". Lanes have some controls which exist for track, f.e. solo, but that does not mean the goal was establish full track functionality for takes.

The "main stream" mixing structure in Cakewalk is still "Track->Bus->Bus->....->Bus->Output". Even so folders, take lanes and Aux tracks till some degree allow different internal and/or visual hierarchy.

3 hours ago, Michael Vogel (MUDGEL) said:

Interestingly when I was searching for a little more info I found posts on the old Cakewalk forum going back to 2004 with requests for a utility to convert from .ptn to .mid files. I’ve linked the threads below for your interest.

PTN to MID was never a real problem, till people have tried to "escape" Cakewalk world. Sonar/CbB can load PTN and save as MIDI (f.e. as described in my first post, even faster with DnD). Originally I have thought to include that into utility (so giving PTN produce MID), but since that is natively supported, I have not implemented it.

1 hour ago, Canopus said:

Edit: As for the reason why SONAR was unable to save PTN files; of course, I’m only guessing here, but I can’t help wonder if the reason might have been that the ability to save PTN files could have been regarded as a unique selling point of Project5. Adding that ability to SONAR as well might have been regarded as product cannibalizing.

PTN files are fully usable in Project5 only. I don't see how a possibility to create files usable in a single program can be considered as a selling point for that program.
While initially Project5 and Sonar could be thought as complimenting products, most (all?) features of Project 5 was later added into Sonar.

Note that container format used in  ARP/PTN files is still in use by CbB (CWP files). If I understand the documentation right, Project5 could work with MID. So Cakewalk still has the code and it is a matter of adding an extra option into Export menu and calling that code...

But in practice PTN files make sense for arp only, and lets face it, arp in CbB is not the best arp on the market (I guess it is verbatim Project5 code, which in turn is the primary reason why it works with PTN...).

I think the problem is that CbB still supports archaic DX MIDI FX only. So routing VST MIDI effects is troublesome. And so when for someone Cakewalk arp provides wished functionality, it is the easiest to use. There is a least one DX MIDI FX style/arp plug-in: https://midi-plugins.de/#Plugins/VirtualBand  but I am not sure it is still possibly to buy it...

I could implement multi-file support, GUI, DnD, etc... but I have decided to keep it "simple", at least for the moment.

The utility is so small that calling it for single files from batch/gui wrapper should take almost no time. With advantage it is simpler to analyze when particular file fails.

for /R %f in (*.arp) do <path to>\cakearp "%f"
called from a copy of "Cakewalk Core" took around 5 second to extract all ARP files I have.

PS. well, if for whatever reason you still think that is useful... the utility accept any number of arguments now.

Cakewalk has build-in MIDI arp.

In addition to "usual" for arps sequences, it can use custom note sequences as the basis. The only supported format for these sequences is PTN.

Cakewalk by itself can load PTN files, as MIDI clips and as a part of arp configuration. Cakewalk also can save arp configuration (including the pattern) into ARP files.

But for some (which?) reason Cakewalk can't create PTN files nor extract them from ARP files.

The following utility tries to provide missed functionality. It is command line program which accept single file name as the argument:

• if the argument has an extension "arp" (or "ARP"), it tries to extract PTN file from it. The extraction is verbatim (PTN files are saved "as is" in ARP files)
• if the argument has an extension "mid" (or "MID"), it tries convert it into PTN file. Note that conversion is not "1 to 1", only Notes, Wheel and CC events are converted and all other parameters in resulting PTN file are constant (I don't know what they specify). In my tests that is sufficient for arp operations, please let me know if I have overseen something (I mean the result does not work as expected)

Background information about PTN files.

PTN are "Project 5" proprietary format to store MIDI clips. In general it seems like the format support all information in MIDI clips (and some extra, f.e. flam). But only a part of that information is used by Cakewalk arp.

Converting MIDI clip into PTN.

Prepare a MIDI clip, by loading existing PTN file (f.e. File/Import/MIDI..., select "P5 pattern" as file type) or from scratch. Original tempo will be reproduced with 1/32 setting in the arp (note that factory ARP do not follow that rule, so even if you load PTN extracted from an ARP into the same ARP, the tempo can be different). The first note defines the "origin" for transposing the whole clip according to actual note on the track. Select the clip. File/Export.../MIDI groove clip. Use the utility with created MID file name as parameter.

May be I have overseen and you have mentioned that already... but have you switched nanoKONTROL2 into CC mode? Leaving it in DAW mode is looking for troubles till you use MackieControl plug-in.

For RPN/NRPN/CC/etc. , find some source for reading about MIDI messages. "MIDI 1.0" standard from what I remember is not free and midi.org web site is getting worse and worse with time...

It is possible to use ACT MIDI in parallel with Mackie-Control. But there are some conditions for that:

• Mackie Control should not react on control you use with ACT MIDI. Otherwise engaging the control will produce both operations. Taking into account Mackie Control defines something for all Mackie controls and "compatible" devices send use subset of that controls, in practice that mean you need to redefine what particular control sends
• insert ACT MIDI as the first in the surfaces list, before Mackie Control. Otherwise messages from all controls not defined in ACT will "leak" as MIDI input.

2 hours ago, User 905133 said:

As an old man, I no longer have the ability to mine file formats and figure out what's what by trial and error, but if there is no such document and others are interested, I'm willing to help. 

The format is simple. "Sufficiently old" programmers can recognize it in a HEX editor 😏

But "trial and error" is problematic without a program which can generate the files, since in such condition we can only guess what is saved inside. I mean without the knowledge what is saved, it is a kind of pointless to search how that is saved. At the moment we know there should be MIDI notes with standard number of attributes. These I have  found already. But there are several more attributes for every note, something apart from notes (may be CC/etc... now since I know loading PTN into Cakewalk is possible I can check) and something for the clip as a whole.

7 hours ago, Canopus said:

Yes, I noticed a couple of days ago that there actually is a P5 Pattern filter available when selecting File > Import > MIDI.

The pattern will be displayed as MIDI in Cakewalk and thus be available for modification, but the problem is of course that there is no way of saving MIDI as a pattern file. I can't really understand why that function was omitted in SONAR as the Bakers at that time definitely had access to the P5 program code. But who knows, maybe they still have it stored in some long-forgotten repository and quite easily can dust it off and integrate it into CbB?

Or, otherwise, that "Magic Fingers" azslow3 might find it an interesting challenge to write an external MID > PTN  converter?

Since they still can read these files, I think they still have the code to write it.

But I can write external utility. That is why I have asked which features to check and may be try to implement. In P5 documentation I have already seen how to mark notes as "flam" and there is corresponding control in the arpeggiator. MIDI in Cakewalk does not have such flag (or I am not aware about it), unlike f.e. Step Sequencer.

1 hour ago, Canopus said:

Sorry, I don’t have Project5 and know nothing about it, but if it's of any help there is a 378 page pdf manual for Project5 version 2 online.

Edit: Updated the url slightly.

Thanks!

At least now I have realized that P5 patterns ARE MIDI clips. I mean something Cakewalk can insert into a project as MIDI clip. I somehow had an impression all these PTN files bundles with Cakewalk are for the the arpeggiator only... and was wondering why some of them sound strange when used there... make sense, since in practice the arpeggiator put restrictions on what is played from the clip (no simultaneous notes) and how (the number of octaves). 😉

If for some reason it was not clear from my post, I already have deep understanding what (and how) arps (and auto-accompaniment) engines do.

The question is what (if anything) from that is implemented in Cakewalk.

Discovering that by bouncing clips is possible... but people who edited patterns in Project 5 probably just know.

PS. this thread is about Cakewalk arpeggiator. There are many plug-ins and DAWs which do that better. But all of them are "off topic" here.

28 minutes ago, Yves Chaput said:

Is that that ACT interface i need to configure to change the behavior of some of the buttons?

Unfortunately Mackie plug-in is not flexible. And if you don't use it you need to start from scratch.

"ACT MIDI" has too many limitations, even for your device. If you have time, read "ACT MIDI explained"

I have a  question about patterns. May be someone who used Project 5 can remember.

Do they have some "extra" functionality in comparison to normal MIDI clips?

I mean "real" patterns in other programs have many "extra properties". F.e. some notes don't change position when the pattern is transposed, other stay in tune, etc.
Are some Cakewalk patterns also have similar properties?

And now why I am asking... I have create my first PTN file (just for fun... to check I can...). So it is possible convert MIDI into PTN/ARP (and back). But there is way more information in PTN then I can understand, and since I don't have Project 5 I can't check it influence  (or influenced) something or that are "historical" chunks which are not used by Cakewalk.

PS. PTN/ARP files are in "Cakewalk format" (like CWP files). The conversion is NOT packing binary MIDI file into an "envelope". I mean don't waste you time in attempts to reproduce my successful test 😜

17 hours ago, Jacques Boileau said:

Since Steinberg are also the developers of VST3, I’m considering their implementation as “correct” absent any other information.

In the perfect (or at least logical...) world, what they document should be "correct":

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_dev_portal/pages/FAQ/Compatibility+with+VST+2.x+or+VST+1.html

For programmers: note there is NO character filtering in the name converter, the name is used verbatim.

But Steinberg's world is not perfect nor logical.  Steinberg at some places implement things not according to there own documentation (so I will not be surprised if they use different function in Cubase).  And since the documentation does not describe many details (f.e. in which encoding plug-in name should be...), developers just guess what they should do. I wish all developers abandon VST3, I know that is not going to happened any time soon. But there is already one "major" DAW which support LV2 on Windows 😏

9 hours ago, DaveMichel said:

@azslow3  Kind of an unnecessary PS for someone using RME and Sound Devices. I sometimes need a dongle that would allow me to edit 96kHz/24bit projects on headphones without additional hardware beyond a laptop. Do I wish it was ASIO compliant? Sure. I'm open to suggestions.

You have probably misunderstood my point (or humor in which it was packed). I just mean such devices are not targeting the same applications as specialized music creation interfaces nor have the quality/stability of RME. In other words such problems can be expected.

If possible, WASAPI/Exclusive  is preferred over WDM/KS mode these days.

If I remember correctly, "unplugging" the device on which Cakewalk was stuck have enabled me to choose different one. That was with one of virtual interfaces inside virtual machine,  but I think that should work with real device on real computer as well. Probably disabling the interface in Windows also helps.

PS. things  with names sounding like "extreme professional" are normally not professional 😏

@musekamp note that theoretically it is possible on software level in Cakewalk. But the only surface plug-in which supports that at the moment is AZ Controller, and creating corresponding preset is not 5 minutes job.