Starship Krupa

On 3/13/2024 at 9:11 PM, Jeff Fry said:

What gives?  Why doesn't the more robust version (on the PC) have at least the same level of virtual instruments as the mobile version?   Does anyone have an idea?  Is it possible to get that same library of virtual instruments for the PC, and I just haven't found it yet?  

I really don't want to have to download a ton of 1-and-2 instrument collections.

The BandLab apps and Cakewalk by BandLab are two distinctly different animals. BandLab's virtual instruments and FX are in their own proprietary format.

I believe that the forthcoming Cakewalk Next will support BandLab plug-ins, but whether they will be ported to VST3 for use in Sonar remains to be seen.

In the meantime, there's a huge thread in this forum about freeware instruments.

Or just get Vital, IKM SampleTank 4 CS, Arturia Analog Lab Play, Soundpaint and Native Instruments Komplete Start and you'll have enough free virtual instruments to keep you busy for weeks or months.

If you don't want to take the trouble to download them, then just do without.

20 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

This seems to be a trend in the software industry.

Perhaps, but at least in the audio software market, there's a lot of pushback, and still, the only DAW that is subscription-only is <irony>market leader and overall powerhouse Adobe Audition. /<irony>

Even AVID offer perp licenses for Pro Tools. The subs are cheaper and offer better perks, which is as it should be if you're pushing subs. Make the sub a more appealing option.

I think that the pushing of subs will go through some changes and shakeouts over time. Software companies will realize that it works for some types of products and not others, they'll realize that some people just want perp licenses period.

If we lose alternatives to subs, people will vote with their feet and switch to other products.

The silver lining is that when both are offered, the subs do provide a steady revenue stream that allows the devs more freedom to bring focus to bug fixes and smaller quality of life features and take their time on polishing the big features. Witness CbB, which has in a way been a sub model, with BandLab paying our sub fees.

I actually think the "hybrid" model is a good idea, it quells the fear of losing the use of it. After you've paid in, you can kick back and not lose your access. They just botched the implementation by walling off these extras. Maybe they'll back down. How long did it take for Waves to cave?

On 3/31/2024 at 4:35 AM, Marcello said:

Maybe I could have gone for a much lower snare sound, I mean biffy chunky snare sound, but I'm not too fussy on that,

Now I actually fixed some minor timing issues with the feels and I decreased the velocity on the ride which is giving the tempo, it seemed maybe a bit too washy, here's the final version if you want to give it  a listen.

The drums sound quite natural. Like I said, I'm a drummer, and they'd fool me.

As far as what snare sound to use, the thing is to go with the sound you hear in your mind. If you imagine the song with certain sounds, then that's what the sound of the song is.

So that's post-hardcore. Sounds reminiscent of early-90's indie rock, which is a favorite genre of mine, being last active in a band during that time.

2 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Well, I was confused by your answering a question as if you were the person the question was addressed to.  One other option was that you have (at least) two accounts and for some reason you were using Mr No Name so you could post things you didn't want people to associate with Starship Krupa.  I thought that would be too ridiculous (though not impossible), which was why I expressed surprised.

I mean if I quote person X and ask directly "what did you mean when you said Y?" and you know I know the history, but person X presents himself as someone new to the community who doesn't read manuals, why would you answer a question as if you are someone else?

I suppose if you wanted to answer on behalf of Mr No Name (assuming you are two different people)

Based on the posts I have seen made under the name of Mr No Name, I had no reason to assume he didn't mean what he actually said.  So I did the responsible thing and asked a direct question to get clarification. 

So I was quite surprised that you told me something that I have every reason to believe you know I knew. 

Your insinuation that I might have been "deliberately obtuse" is very problematic.  As I stated, based on previous posts I have read from the Mr No Name account, I would have been wrong to assume that Mr No Name meant

So far as I have seen from his posts Mr No Name could very well have thought that Cakewalk was designed as a free DAW so Bandlab [the company] could attract people to Bandlab [the software / app / ecosystem].

This is an false dichotomy.

In case it's not clear, I asked for clarification about what "Mr No Name" meant by what he said. It was clear that I was asking a direct question for the purpose of getting a clarification of what he meant.  

I don't understand at all how that was not clear to you from my post. 

Amish rakefight!

Just a silly misunderstanding, mate. You know I think yer a good dude and a credit to the forum (I hope you know, at least). Sorry for the confusion.

I guess I should have said "I think what he means is...."

BTW, I have no secondary accounts and believe that it's bad form to do so. You can always recognize me by the long-winded pedantic style anyway. 😄

Oh man I tried these and couldn't delete them fast enough.

If you have Analog Lab Play or Syntronik 2 CS, there's nothing there.

28 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

I hate to tell you because I thought you knew, but Cakewalk was around long before Bandlab acquired the Intellectual Property that became CbB.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse here or if you really think I believe that Cakewalk's entire history began in April of 2018.

I (and I think the other person as well) was talking about Cakewalk by BandLab.

I had a SONAR license in 2002. Here's an article I authored about CbB that includes some of its history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk_by_BandLab

1 hour ago, mettelus said:

I pay for products, not promises.

This is a good idea.

Warning, incoming jibber-jabber:

The Image Linesque FUD used to come up on the MeldaProduction forum years ago. "Lifetime updates but what if the company fails? They won't be taking in any new money! What if the guy this business is built around gets hit by a bus?"

My response was always "then you get to use the plug-ins you paid for until they no longer work." Are you happy with what you have? Does it work correctly? Fine, then. Their policy is nice, but if you would feel cheated if the company ended tomorrow, don't spend your money.

That's a substantial pile of software that PreSonus have shifted over to sub-only. I'll devil's advocate here for a second, but don't worry, I do think it's a bad move.

On the one hand, one could say that at least the people who already had a 6.5 Pro license will be able to use those add-ons until the wheels fall off SPlat-style. Nobody has had anything revoked from them, if I get it correctly.

Who loses is perp license fans who maybe were still saving for a Pro license, maybe Artist users who were planning to upgrade. They've been locked out of buying audio software from their favorite audio software company. That is a bummer to be sure, and it creates FUD about possibly future core features of SO getting walled off behind a sub model.

Still, I don't see anyone being cheated here. Disappointed and disturbed, sure.

Why I think it's a silly move on PreSonus part is first, the FUD. Favorite audio software company can't learn from all the poop that was flung at Waves for trying to sell plug-ins sub only? That signals market blindness on their part.

Second, WTF, Fender? After 70 years of selling guitars and amplifiers, the don't understand the value of upselling accessories? These now sub-only programs and plug-ins are accessories, and now, while they may very well keep most of their perp license userbase, nobody who buys a perp license for Pro in the future will be able to buy these other products that they make. Seems silly to jettison potential sales that way.

Of course that's the sad thing when dealing with a publicly-traded company and why I swore 25 years ago I'd never work for one again: Fender are not in business to trade music gear and software for money. They are in business to make the price of their stock go higher. That is all that matters. If Fender looks better to the Wall Street analysts because a certain percentage of their revenue is from subscriptions, then they'll try to force as many people into subscriptions as they can. And if they think that the best way to herd them in is making some products sub-only, then public opinion be damned.

Wall Street analysts don't read KVR. They don't care if you pi55 off half your userbase. They care about how much you're spending on certain things, how many employees you have vs. revenues (and they're not great at knowing what industries require more or fewer people), statistics like that. Company reputation doesn't matter. If they thought that people's regard mattered, they wouldn't be stock market analysts.

Fortunately, there are alternative products to everything on that list, including the DAW itself.

Me, when I look at the psychology of what seems to work for subscriptions, what I see working historically is entertainment content, services, and consumables. Not so much for things that are "durable." Content is fine, I'm okay with my $15 a month Netflix, I get that much entertainment out of it, it's worth the price of a burger and fries. Consumables and services....yeah, there are deals to be had on razor blades, auto maintenance and the like. I don't have room for a gym in my home, so if I wanted to work out on machines, gym membership.

And if you're a business, the lease model may be desirable, not having to deal with buying a building full of new furniture when the old stuff gets too banged up, just have the accountants send the payments off, makes it easier to see how much you're actually spending per year.

But for individuals, I think we (or at least a large percentage of us) see software as more like "durable" goods. We want to choose just what we buy individually (I like this company's compressor, I like that company's reverb, etc.), we fear lapses in our ability to pay the subscription, and we want to be able to take a break from using it without having it nagging at us that we're not using it enough to justify $20 a month.

People don't like feeling forced or coerced and we really don't like having things taken away from us. I can see where PreSonus' move feels like all of those things to loyal users.

Also, it violates one of my principles, which is, to get people on board with one of two alternatives, do it by making the alternative you want them to choose better, not by making the other one worse. PreSonus are trying to do it by making the perp license worse.

How should companies do it instead? Have subscriptions that grant you a discount over the perp license over a year's time, along with exclusive premium services and/or content. Don't make entire pieces of software otherwise unavailable. Loop libraries, presets, soundware, distribution, premium support are all great subscription perks. And never, ever block off something that used to come with a perp license.

3 hours ago, RSMcGuitar said:

As someone who has had perpetual licences since v3, this is probably their worst move I've seen and I'm a Studio One user and fan. Look at the Youtube comments on the video Presonus posted about this update, really says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmPtTyX_1eE&t=17s

 

It looks like people are upset that getting this new soft synth is only possible via subscription. Are there other features that are subscriber-only?

18 hours ago, pwal³ said:

tbf it had nothing to do with apple (and their deliberate shelf-life business plan)

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it had. I was trying to draw a parallel between the transition from 32-bit Windows apps to 64-bit ones and the transition from Intel Mac apps to Apple Silicon apps.

As something that might cause some companies to decide that it wasn't worth updating their products.

Which is what I thought may have happened with Project 5, but then you informed me that the move to 64-bit programs was well along its way when the plug was pulled.

Woo, it's been a while, been plenty of good freeware released since last June.

I'll start with iZotope's newest offerings.

iZotope have released Trash Lite, a free cut down version of the latest iteration of their classic digital distortion plug-in.

They also offer the rather excellent EQ from Ozone as a standalone free plug-in. Their site has no separate page for it, so here's a link to their entire collection of free goodies, most of which have already been mentioned in this topic. (There's Vocal Doubler, Ozone Imager, and Vinyl):

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/free-audio-plug-ins.html

Polyverse, makers of the excellent free stereo expansion tool Wider, have issued Filtron, a slick filter with saturation.

In the category of "I can't believe someone finally made a freeware one of these" is TIME1, which is a delay modulator similar to those features in Gross Beat or MRhythmizer. I already like TIME1 better than MRhythmizer because while it's not as versatile, it is a hell of a lot easier to figure out. Draw curves and lines on a grid and warpy stuff happens when you send it a MIDI note.

GATE1 is TIME1's sister plug-in. Same idea but in the realm of volume modulation rather than time. I can't help but wonder when we'll see FILTER1, something to do the same job but with filtering.

(the links for TIME1 and GATE1 are to the Github repositories, but don't despair, just scroll down a little and the developer has nice "Download VST3" links, how I wish that all developers who put their creations up on Github would make it that easy)

Lofi Oddity is described as a "degradation toy box." It has 4 different modules that affect the signal in different ways. Cassette tape simulator, washy reverb, bitcrushing, and compression.

Been a few months, but multiple free instruments released. The theme this time is dreamy ambient pads.

Ibiskus is a nice instrument for ambient and lofi sounds.

Arctic Dreams is another one, based on piano sounds.

Love-Fi 3 Lite is yet another one, from a longtime favorite ambient instrument maker, Quiet Music.

On 3/30/2024 at 7:40 AM, Max Arwood said:

Do any of you guys (or gals) use noise plugins to bring up instruments in a mix. Like on a kick or snare to add that sizzle to it. Or an acoustic instrument to bring it forward in a mix. Or do you prefer to use compression and Eq? For instances on a snare to bring out the wires or a kick to emphasize the slap to help it cut thru a mix?

I'm not familiar with adding noise to make acoustic instruments more prominent in a mix. So I guess I'm a compression/EQ person.

I start with getting the best sound possible with tuning (drums) and mic'ing. Then compression and EQ if needed, and carving frequencies and/or sidechaining other tracks to make space. Trackspacer is a great program for automatic EQ carving via sidechain.

10 hours ago, Kip Bryan said:

I'm not being able to make any connection to the Roland Piano 700 which is over 30 years old.

I assume that what you're trying to do is use the Roland 700 as a controller to play software synthesizers?

If your MIDI-to-USB cable is being recognized by Windows and Cakewalk, it should work to connect any 5-pin MIDI keyboard. Just make sure you get the MIDI in and MIDI out ports right.

I Googled the Roland 700 and the blurb on the Roland site mentions "MIDI Tx button for easy control over external MIDI devices and sound modules."

Most keyboards with MIDI outs have their MIDI out ports configured to transmit, but if that's not the case with your Roland, you may have to press that button and/or crack the manual.

The only reason you would wish to use .ins files is if you are trying to control the Roland 700 with Cakewalk. And they aren't strictly necessary just to get note data from Cakewalk to the keyboard. They give Cakewalk the ability to display and select patches. At this stage, I wouldn't worry about .ins files.

You also don't need to drop a hundy on an audio interface with MIDI jacks. I have one similar to this one, which is $14. It works great. You'd only need an interface if you wanted to record the actual sounds your piano is making. If you just want to record the MIDI note data, the $14 one is fine.

A good utility for checking to see whether MIDI data is reaching your computer is MIDI-OX.

Here's a screenshot of it monitoring what's coming out of my MIDI interface with my Yamaha keyboard plugged in. The Yamaha is constantly sending a MIDI timing clock along with notes.

9 hours ago, mettelus said:

It did make me find an odd nugget right at the very beginning of the MSoundFactory tutorial video though (never watched it before). The second sentence in the video... "Most likely our last instrument..." It has been out 3+ years already and didn't know that.

I think that MSoundFactory represents everything Vojtech could think of to put in an instrument. Samples, generators, FX, it's all there. And it's an ongoing project with new instruments and libraries being released. He's putting all of his synth attention into new libraries and instruments for that rather than doing much to upgrade MPowerSynth.

As for Studio One 6.6, I just started up Studio One Artist 6.5 and it updated itself to 6.6. When I first upgraded my Studio One 5 license to Studio One 6, it was just plain 6 with no dots. I'm impressed with what I've gotten for $50. From what I've seen of it, if I had to switch from Sonar to S1 Artist, there aren't many features I'd miss, and some that I would welcome. That's why I think that it, not Studio One Pro, is Sonar's real competition.

23 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

What do you mean when you say Cakewalk was designed to attract people to the bandlab platform? 

That seemed to be its function at first. Re-release this classic program to be used at no cost, but it requires creating a BandLab account.

So for years, it acted as a promotional loss-leader.

On 4/1/2024 at 5:00 AM, pwal³ said:

nah, everyone was going (or had gone x64) and there were hints in the forum that it would happen, but then the plug was suddenly pulled, i guess they didn't have the funding at that point to justify the effort

I suspect that when a company has to decide whether to spend resources on being compatible with some advancement in technology, we see more than the usual number of products being dropped.

We saw it happen in the past few years with multiple plug-ins due to Apple coming out with their own processors and then announcing that the backward compatibility layer was going to be removed.

So do we keep updating this plug-in that seems to have run its course or do we drop it and come out with an improved version?

iZotope dropped a bunch of stuff in the past couple of years. Break Tweaker, half a dozen Exponential reverbs, Iris 2, Trash 2. I suspect that was the choice there, do we invest in updating these oldies for Apple Silicon or just retire them? Tough noogies for people who want to keep using them on their Macs, but take it up with Apple.

7 hours ago, pwal³ said:

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Products/Style-Dials

I know what the Style Dials are. I described them a couple of posts ago.

What nobody seems to be able to tell me is what "the reported issues when trying to use [PX-64, VX-64, and TL-64] directly" are. I've used PX-64 and VX-64 myself from the point when I discovered them and posted the recipe for enabling them.

I did a forum search for VX-64 issues, unstable, problems and found one post from 4 years ago where someone was having trouble and when they removed VX-64 from the project their troubles vanished, but one single person from 4 years ago doesn't make for "known to be unstable." Their issue may have been an interaction with another plug-in in the project, sometimes plug-ins don't play nice with each other.

If it were "known to be unstable," why would BandLab have included it with Sonar? Even hidden, they're part of the fancy plug-in chains that make up the Style Dials. Wouldn't the problems show up when using those, too?

If there are problems we should raise the flag and get the devs to fix them. They can change whatever needs to be changed in the plug-in code or Sonar code.

3 hours ago, Promidi said:

Consider upgrading tin at least Windows 10

This. If your system can run Windows 8.1, Windows 10 should run at least as well if not better.

For the most part, you shouldn't expect projects that you save in Cakewalk by BandLab to open in 8.5. Projects saved in SONAR 8.5 should open in CbB, though.

You can try making sure that logging and sandboxing are turned off.

On 3/31/2024 at 3:52 PM, Cobus Prinsloo said:

It is quite incredible that one has to wrestle so much getting such a simple feature to work.

Well, what you're seeing is an anomaly that the vast majority of users never run into.

I've been on the Cakewalk forum for 6 years and this is the first time I've seen anyone have trouble with it.

4 minutes ago, sjoens said:

the reported issues when trying to use them directly

Which I've not only never experienced, I can't seem to get anyone to tell me what they are.

1 hour ago, pwal³ said:

i used p5 a lot, and never understood why they never bothered releasing a x64 version

It seems to be much missed by the people who used it. I don't know the timeline, but maybe Cakewalk, Inc. pulled the plug on it before 64-bit became a must-have thing?

4 hours ago, pwal³ said:

the error code is also a recognised windows code, but the message doesn't make it clear if it's cake or win complaining

Hmmm, I Googled "80004002" and it seemed to point to a program or .DLL not being able to connect to some network socket and not finding it.

I wonder if the SSL plug-in (or some other) is trying to "phone home" to check its update or registration status and throwing that error for whatever reason. Or as you suggest, it can't access some resource on the disk.

6 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

I'm pretty sure the VX-64 has only been brought back in for the new Sonar.

Certainly in CbB it was listed as hidden/didabled and had to be manually added back in to the list of active plugins.

I beleieve from memory this was to ensure that certain FX chains which included VX-64 worked properly,

You are correct, sir.

I was told that VX-64, PX-64, and TL-64 act as the back end for the Style Dials, which I guess makes the Style Dials basically FX chains with nice simple UI's.

In one of those "independent researchers" moments, Craig Anderton (SoS column), Mike Enjo (YT video) and I (on the forum) all revealed the recipe for getting them to appear in CbB within days of each other. Craig probably already knew, and Mike and I were likely both just poking around in Plug-In Manager and found these 3 things that were excluded....

Something I've noticed: the .DLL versions are different between the ones installed by CbB and the ones installed by Sonar. That is if you right click on them, select Properties and then click on the versions tab. Maybe they put a bit of code in them to flag SONAR Artist (and CbB) to exclude them.

What are the issues people have been seeing with VX-64?

1 hour ago, pwal³ said:

that error message doesn't specify the actual plugin, just the folders/path - maybe it's missing?

That's not the error message that Cakewalk throws when it can't find a plug-in. If that's the case, then the user should see a pop up listing the plug-ins that couldn't be found and then the plug-in's name will be in parentheses in the FX rack.

And yes "80004002" is the number of the error message, which if you submit a ticket to Cakewalk's support staff, you should supply. If your other tracks are as loaded with plug-ins as your vocal track, I can see why you might mistake 80,004,002 as the number of plug-ins Cakewalk is trying to load (j/k).

As far as whether Cakewalk limits the number of plug-ins you may use at one time, I don't think that it does, but of course you will be limited by the amount of memory your system has.

I'm with the others, 11 plug-ins on one vocal track is at least twice as many as you should ever need. The 3 that are bypassed are still eating up memory, too, and you can probably safely get rid of that second (bypassed) instance of CLA-76. Don't worry, most of us did that when we were new. Not sounding right? Throw on another effect plug-in! Also, when I use de-essers, I put them first in the chain.

I haven't heard about any stability issues with VX-64, if there are it seems like an odd decision on Cakewalk's part to bring it back.