Confused about mastering

[Billy86]

Hi. I'm new to the mastering world and I'm confused as to settings in CbB as they relate to my new mastering plugin, Ozone 8. (Thanks Santa!)

Basically, I'm trying to understand how CbB's export audio function and Ozone 8's mastering duties interact. I have a mixdown stereo wave file of the song, exported from CbB at the same sample and bit rate as I recorded, 44.1/24 with no dithering (I want O8 to handle that). I have brought that "raw" wave file into a new session of CbB for mastering. So I have the wave file on a track that outputs to the master, on which I've inserted Ozone 8. I want O8 to handled all the "output to MP3" and dithering (down to 16 bit) duties. The O8 manual instructs that it should be the last thing to touch the audio, especially because of its dithering duties. 

My question: In my mastering session, when I "File\Export Audio" from CbB, and the output is passing audio through O8 on the master bus, do I set CbB export parameters to 44.1/24bit wave file -- because I want the "raw" stereo mixdown of the recording passing through O8, and it will be doing the conversion to 44.1/16bit MP3? If I set CbB "export audio" as 16bit MP3, does O8 then perform those functions AGAIN because I've set it up that way?  

Thanks for any help.

Billy

[scook]

11 minutes ago, Billy86 said:

do I set CbB export parameters to 44.1/24bit wave file -- because I want the "raw" stereo mixdown of the recording passing through O8

This. Although consider exporting at the render bit depth set in CbB instead of the record bit depth. The default render depth is 32. Check your preferences.

[Billy86]

4 hours ago, scook said:

This. Although consider exporting at the render bit depth set in CbB instead of the record bit depth. The default render depth is 32. Check your preferences.

Thanks scook. Have set the render depth to 32. I want the final mastered file to be an MP3, dithered by Ozone. When I set the Export Audio file type in CbB to .wav, I end up with a .wav file.  I've learned a little more about Ozone, I'm still a bit confused as to the best way to get to an MP3 file in a CbB--Ozone signal flow.

The Ozone manual says this: 

Codec Preview is at the very end of the signal chain within Ozone. When you are using Ozone as a plug-in, it is important that Ozone is placed after all other inserts if you are using Codec Preview. This will ensure that the signal going into Codec Preview includes all of the processing being applied to the mix.

Codec Preview is intended to be used for previewing only and will not apply actual MP3 or AAC compression when exporting from the Ozone application or a DAW.  You can use the Codec Preview feature to help inform the export settings of your host application, but be sure to disable the feature prior to exporting.

So it looks like I'll have to use CbB to output the MP3. When I choose that as the export audio file type, the only option for Bit Depth is 16. Should I assume CbB is doing the dithering to get from the original mixdown stereo file's render bit depth to the final MP3 bit depth? I'm assuming double-dithering is not a place I want to go, so should I disable it in Ozone?

 

[scook]

Do NOT export an mp3 from Cakewalk to use as a source for mastering in Ozone. Make an mp3 from the wav produced by Ozone or export the mp3 directly out of Ozone.

[Greg Graves]

Dude!  First off, you can simply insert Ozone on the Master Buss when the mix is complete.  Secondly, novice use of Ozone is FULL of pitfalls, like the 'louder is better' trap and wind up smashing the mix into a squashed wave with Ozone's limiter.  Use K14 on your meters.  Lastly, unless you have some really good monitors, and you have tested your listening environment with RoomEQWizard 5.0 or the like, your mastering efforts are doomed.

[Billy86]

Thanks, scook.  I'm afraid I'm not explaining myself very well. I know to create the final MP3 from a .wav. 

At any rate, I think I've figure it out. I exported an MP3 from CbB with "none" selected in the dithering option. That will keep the stereo track's output signal hitting the master bus undithered,  Then, I have OZ8 on the master bus handling the dithering duties.

[Billy86]

5 minutes ago, Greg Graves said:

Dude!  First off, you can simply insert Ozone on the Master Buss when the mix is complete.  Secondly, novice use of Ozone is FULL of pitfalls, like the 'louder is better' trap and wind up smashing the mix into a squashed wave with Ozone's limiter.  Use K14 on your meters.  Lastly, unless you have some really good monitors, and you have tested your listening environment with RoomEQWizard 5.0 or the like, your mastering efforts are doomed.

Thanks for weighing in.

[Starship Krupa]

First let me say that this is absolutely correct, your mastering efforts, nay, ALL your efforts are doomed. As a matter of fact, his efforts, my efforts, and the efforts of everyone reading this are doomed. These words mock us much like the twin trunkless legs of Ozymandias, standing 30' tall in the desert, the lone and level sands stretching far and wide with nothing else around but these words on a pedestal beneath, "Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

But Ozymandias of Egypt did not have a copy of RoomEQWizard 5.0.

Nor a copy of Ozone 8 Advanced, which you apparently do, if you're discussing CODEC Preview, you lucky dog.

Merry Xmas indeed. I only have Ozone Elements 8, and I kind of hate it in a way, because I had just gotten to the point where I was really liking the way my masters sounded, with all my plug-ins tuned just right, and then Pluginboutique put it on sale for something in the neighborhood of $30 and I couldn't resist.

And I tried it on a song that I had just gone back and applied my newly-acquired mastering wisdom to, slapped it right on the Master bus and started going through the preset collection and was like....oh no. This thing. Oh no. And I decided to try their wizard, whatever it's called, that analyzes a bit of your song and twiddles the knobs a pops out a suggestion, and I think I did a literal?‍♀️.

Because a lot of them sounded really good, like as good or better than what had taken me months of struggling and sounding like refried poo and being discouraged and thinking that I was never going to "get" this whole mixing thing (especially figuring out how to set up a compressor). And just as I had crested the hill and was feeling confident, along comes this Lite version of a mastering suite that's somewhat derided for having autopilot features anyway, and lo and behold, it does, and they work.

Of course, I've made my peace, the settings it suggests are that, suggestions, and I always have to adjust them, and it's never the only thing in my mastering chain, and I can master just fine without it, thanks. I treat it as a collection of very nice-sounding plug-ins with some very nice presets and good-looking UI's. It's also great for "quickie mixes" for when I've just recorded a jam with friends and everyone wants to hear a playback and I have the length of one joint on the porch to make a rough mix.

To get to your issue: I think what you're asking is how to properly use Ozone Advanced as a mastering suite in conjunction with Cakewalk? Specifically where to apply the dithering. Ozone's has some cool dithering algorithms and you want to try theirs when doing your MP3 and AAC and FLAC renders.

Dithering is just this fancy noise that is added to your audio so that the conversion from 24 to 16 doesn't leave weird sounds in it. It only matters during that conversion process. If we were recording at 44.1/24 and rendering to the same, no dithering need to apply. But since MP3's and CD's are 16-bit, we must dither about.

Since Advanced comes in both standalone and plug-in forms, you don't have to do it the way you did, doing all your mixing in Cakewalk, then exporting a WAV file, importing it back into Cakewalk with Ozone on the Master bus and exporting it again. You have a couple of choices.

1. You may export your original mix as a WAV from Cakewalk, then load it into the standalone Ozone 8 and do all your mastering work in there, either using only the modules that come with Ozone or including 3rd-party ones, as Ozone 8 Advanced supports that, too. Then you can render to the file formats you want directly from Ozone, using the dithering and CODECS that they supply.

So Export from Cakewalk at whatever you Rate/Depth you record, let's say 44,100/24bit. Apply no dithering. Then load that file into the standalone Ozone 8 Advanced and have at it. When seasoned to taste, export away. It is at that point ye shall apply thine dithre.

2. You may do as you said you did earlier and proceed as in 1, except after you export the WAV file, start a new project in Cakewalk, install Ozone as a plug-in on the Master bus of Cakewalk and import the WAV file back in. Once you have something you want to pop out, set Ozone's dithering options, then Export/Audio from Cakewalk's menu, choosing "None" in the dialog for Dithering, because your audio is already going to have the dithering sprinkled on it before it gets to that stage.

Then you can extrude the usual file formats you wish right from Cakewalk.

About that last: my workflow may be different from others', but when I am finished with mixing and mastering (which I do by myself, of my own material, ITB, which breaks a bunch of rules right there and could earn me a coolerful of Haterade dumped on my head) I export one single file from the mastering program in a lossless format, either WAV or FLAC.

That lossless file gets a treatment from MP3Tag, which I use to embed tagging information such as artist, song title, copyright, year, genre, album, etc. I also embed whether the file is a rough mix, because those have a way of "getting into the wild" by being sent to significant others, friends, etc. and the tagging can make that easier to see if it shows up on the player's screen as "Song for Babs-Rough Mix 1."

Then for creation of various compressed format distribution files, I use an external program called MediaHuman where I have profiles set up for the various formats I want to distribute. These days I keep it to FLAC and higher-rate AAC. Everybody's phones and players seem to support M4A files and the quality seems best to me of the lossy formats. Usually if someone gives me their stuff in M4A format it's a sign that they are paying a little closer attention.

As far as people on forums hatin' on Ozone, they're probably envious. It's a box of really top-notch tools that work well together, and a wizard that you can use if you choose or not, and a bunch of presets like every other processor has, and you are fortunate to have the opportunity to be working with such a suite. I think with Advanced you can even use the FX as individual plug-ins, and I would surely do so if I were able with the Elements Suites I have, which are Ozone and Neutron. The only down side of using them is the latency they introduce during tracking, and they do represent a suite's worth of processor resources.

I'm waiting like a cat at a mousehole for Pluginboutique to let loose with a deal on RX Elements.

I've learned much from having Ozone Elements around and running the wizard and seeing what it comes up with, seeing if I like it or not, checking the results. Heck, if you apply a preset or run the Assistant and find that the Maximizer squashes your mix too much, nobody forces you to keep the results. Go in and click on it and pull back on the slider and un-squash it, just as you would if you had a buddy who was an Oasis fan who kept trying to get you to brickwall everything. Pitfall avoided.

[John]

My advice is a little Ozone goes a long way.  When using it restraint is the key. 

[Base 57]

5 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I'm waiting like a cat at a mousehole for Pluginboutique to let loose with a deal on RX Elements.

You must not have seen the deals forum yesterday.  You were waiting by the wrong hole, like a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

[Starship Krupa]

17 hours ago, Base 57 said:

You must not have seen the deals forum yesterday.  You were waiting by the wrong hole, like a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

Oh noooooo!

Actually, Larry is the mouse hole aggregator. Good reminder to keep an eye on him.

It'll be around when it's around. And when it is, He Who Seems To Never Sleep will no doubt be on it.

I take this as a good sign. If they're loss-leadering it at B&H, then their loss-leader program must be paying off for them, and they'll be keeping it up.

The challenge is getting to be finding $1-$5 things to buy at Pluginboutique. I already own most of the Soundspot FX (much of which is actually pretty useful stuff, nice GUI's) and have multiple licenses for Hybrid 3 and Vacuum Pro.

[Starship Krupa]

23 hours ago, John said:

My advice is a little Ozone goes a long way.  When using it restraint is the key. 

Yea, lest doom prevail. Is that not the way with all processors of signal, good Sir John?

Even the Fader of Level and the Pot of Pan hold danger for those who wield them unwisely!

It may have gotten buried in there, but my point, as a user of Ozone and admirer of iZotope's technology was that "Ozone" is a suite of well-integrated tools with a bunch of presets and a couple of wizards.

It's not a magic wand, there's no knob for "more Ozone" and "less Ozone," nor is it a Pandora's Box of horrors that can somehow irreparably ruin an otherwise perfect mix

Surely a determined fool could do as much harm to a mix armed with no more than ProChannel modules and the Boost11? I was ruining mixes long before I got a license for Ozone, I can tell you that. Pull them faders down!

In my lowly version of Ozone, Elements, all I get is the limiter, the spatializer, and the EQ.

My guess is that it's their Maximizer  (the limiter) that is the cause for concern and calls for restraint. Indeed, that's the element that I find myself tuning most of all, as it's most critical.

When I have run the Mastering Assistant, I usually liked its suggestions for the EQ (I've run it and had it come out almost flat, haw yeah), but I like to putz with the Maximizer and the Imager. The wizard never adds any Imager.

Maximizer has some settings that I like to tune that deal with transient handling and stereo independence as well as our friend loudness. I've found that it's not too outrageous about loudness though. Maybe earlier versions got a bad rap (no pun).

Those who fear the Ozone may be pleased/surprised/unsurprised to know that 8 Standard and Advanced come with a module that I would love to have that's dedicated to referencing your mix against other tracks. Typical of iZotope's stuff, it's got a next-level outside the box idea or two.

https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/products/ozone/track-referencing-in-ozone-8-what-it-is-and-how-to-use-it.html

[John]

There is a ton of stuff on Ozone and mastering in general. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel on a forum. I have written  a lot myself on the old forum on this subject.

What I have seen and come to know is Ozone is a very fine plugin. Yet, it can ruin a mix very easily. Also, not everything  needs Ozone or mastering. I think if the user has an notion of what they want in the sound, how they want it to sound;  and from that get a mix as close to it as they can they are better off in the long run. It really doesn't matter what is used to get there. The Izotope Mastering Guide is a good place to start.

In the end I said what I said because I believe it really is true and it boils down to that point. 

[Billy86]

Appreciate everyone weighing in! That's what I love about this community -- everyone is willing to share their experience and insights... lots of passion.

I spent a lot of time reading the manual (including the section on using reference tracks) and watched every video tutorial I could get my eyes on before pulling the trigger on it. It's a pretty amazing suite IMHO. I feel lucky to have it. It's not "set it and forget it," but it gives you a great place to start based on what you feed into it -- especially if you use a reference track. Which I do.  Like any dynamic piece of software, there's a learning curve, but I think I'm off to solid start.

As I said, I don't think I was clear in my original question. I'm familiar with all the issues raised in the thread.  I just didn't want CbB and OZ8 BOTH applying dithering to get from the original .wav mixdown track to an MP3.  I ultimately figured it out (set dithering to none in the Export Audio GUI and let OZ8 do the dithering on the master bus). As scook pointed out, the one sure way is to Export the .wav mixdown file out of CbB and into the stand-alone version of OZ8. That takes CbB out of the equation all together. Working on a second project that way.

Stoaked to keep working with it. Cheers... Billy

[John]

I have always given Ozone respect. It is a great tool well made and with an outstanding GUI.  My favorite version was 5 but 8 advanced is growing on me. 

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, Billy86 said:

I ultimately figured it out (set dithering to none in the Export Audio GUI and let OZ8 do the dithering on the master bus). As scook pointed out, the one sure way is to Export the .wav mixdown file out of CbB and into the stand-alone version of OZ8. That takes CbB out of the equation all together. Working on a second project that way.

Ah, so you did it like in my second example. Righteous.

Are you using that Referencing module that comes with it? That thing looks amazing.

It's really great that you can use the modules as individual VST's in the Advanced Edition. I like their Maximizer and EQ, and would like to use them by themselves without all the latency and overhead that the suite induces.

John, I am sure with you on their GUIs being great. I believe that a good-looking and intuitive UI is important since we spend so much time looking at them. They should give us a feeling of excitement about the product and iZotope's do. (my old software biz guy kicking in here) I don't mind staring at them while I tune the modules. They're dark, not glaring.

I would not mind Our Favorite DAW getting some "work" done in that regard, but then again, the theme jockeys are doing a fine job.

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, John said:

I have always given Ozone respect. It is a great tool well made and with an outstanding GUI.  My favorite version was 5 but 8 advanced is growing on me. 

What do you think of Neutron?

I got the Elements Edition in one of the loss-leader deals. I use it like I do Ozone. Throw on a preset and then adjust it to my taste. Whatever the wizard is supposed to do, I found it....surplus to my needs.

I could see where experienced mix engineers might be somewhat down on iZotope's suites if they consider them a crutch that lead to hyped sounding crappy mixes done by amateurs. Maybe they can be, but so what? They also contain some really great-sounding processors and other tools, and in my observation, iZotope do everything they can to steer their users in the direction of learning how to do it for real.

What's at stake? Some kid gets to have fun making a track that they think sounds awesome, dude! And if they try to bring it to anyone serious, they will send them back to their bedroom where they will have to figure out where they went wrong anyway.?

[Larry Jones]

30 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

I could see where experienced mix engineers might be somewhat down on iZotope's suites if they consider them a crutch that lead to hyped sounding crappy mixes done by amateurs. Maybe they can be, but so what?

So what? Exactly! One way to get a good master is to hire an experienced mastering engineer with a rack full of expensive signal processors. Another way is with something like Ozone. No shame either way, and no guarantees either way that your master will have commercial success.

[John]

10 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

What do you think of Neutron?

I got the Elements Edition in one of the loss-leader deals. I use it like I do Ozone. Throw on a preset and then adjust it to my taste. Whatever the wizard is supposed to do, I found it....surplus to my needs.

I could see where experienced mix engineers might be somewhat down on iZotope's suites if they consider them a crutch that lead to hyped sounding crappy mixes done by amateurs. Maybe they can be, but so what? They also contain some really great-sounding processors and other tools, and in my observation, iZotope do everything they can to steer their users in the direction of learning how to do it for real.

What's at stake? Some kid gets to have fun making a track that they think sounds awesome, dude! And if they try to bring it to anyone serious, they will send them back to their bedroom where they will have to figure out where they went wrong anyway.?

I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.  What little I do know is it is the mixing equivalent of Ozone for tracks. I am not sure why one needs it. With Cakewalk and all the PC modules plus the  linear-phase plugins give Cakewalk a lot of mastering mixing power.   

I picked upped Hawkeye that I like very much . If one uses Insight 2 this is in my view a better Insight. 

[Starship Krupa]

Super-duper metering plug. Nice.

The relationship between loudness and level and how one sets up one's meters and whatnots are things that I've not yet 100% grasped and will calling upon your wisdom if you're up for sharing it.

Right now I still have to run my files through the Orban program to make sure they're fit for distribution.

I need to get to where I can just set Cakewalk up like I used to have Mixcraft set up, that is, where I understand the relationship between what the dancing lights (or plug-in) on the Master strip and the exported file are, but Cakewalk's mixer is (thank heaven) different from Mixcraft's.

I'll start another topic on it when the time comes.

Neutron is another box of modules, with presets, like Ozone. With Neutron you can change the order of them easily. One of the wizards I think is supposed to identify "honk" frequencies, but it doesn't do much of a job of it. The GUI is typically sex on wheels, all black grey and orange like a Harley, and hold the skeumorphism.

In Neutron Elements the modules are EQ, Compressor, Transient Shaper, Exciter, and Neutrino.

Of those, I find the first three to be useful. The compressor has three detector modes, a vintage or modern switch, and graphical sliders to filter the detection circuit. The EQ is a good graphical parametric, and the transient shaper strikes a nice balance of capable and easy-to-use. 3 modes and 2 sliders for more or less attack and sustain. It's my current fave transient shaper. As for the other two, I prefer the coloration in the ProChannel.

So, no, nothing functionally except for the transient shaper that you don't get with CbB, but if someone were new to compressors, the one in Neutron Elements would be simpler and more straightforward, as well as more versatile, than the 1176 clone in the ProChannel.

Some of the presets are pretty nice, I must say, in some cases infuriatingly so, just like with its cousin Ozone. ? Most of them need the threshold on the compressor set lower so that the thing actually starts to compress a bit (or are my tracking levels too low?).