Midi Velocity Loudness Issue

[Berserkyd]

Hello,

I got a weird issue with my drum sound. I put a bunch of old drum midi tracks  from different projects into a new project.  Resulting of having 1 huge midi drum track (I'll call it midi X). Than I use the scale velocity on all note to make this track as loud as possible meaning putting all midi note to 127 and than ran the Varyvel command to put the note between 123 to 127. Than I added 1 more midi track from a different project to this project (I'll call it midi Y). Putting midi X and midi Y together (bounce to clip), redoing the same step with the time scale velocity to 127 and running the Varyvel command on all notes from midi X and midi Y. But than I noticed that the midi Y part sound different than the midi X, my drum sounded totally weaker, lower, with less punch. So I triple checked the velocity putting them all back to 127, and for some reason the midi Y part of the track sound totally different than the midi X part, even if the pattern is exactly the same. And when I add new midi note into the piano roll in a new project using the same synth drum preset, everything will sound like midi Y (weak, thinner). Just go check my  image and my audio file attachment. I did a quick test by adding a part of the midi X note and creating the same drum pattern calling it midi Y. You can see that the velocity is the same but the db in my software show me something different. And if you listen the audio file, half of it is the midi X and the other half is midi Y, pretty clear that the second part is totally different.

The thing that frustrate me in this, is that I mainly use the midi X sound to balance my mixe, spending a lot of time on it. Now that I'm happy with it, I just notice this issue, meaning that any new midi track I'm gonna create gonna sound like midi Y, and not like the powerful midi X. Even if I increase the midi output, adding for example 3db to reach the same loudness level, the track won't have the punchy sound that midi X have.  I always edit my drum the same way, in the piano roll, by hand. Is there something I forget ?

The only difference could be that I edited all my midi X note in bunch of projects I used AD2, and I made the midi Y note in a project I used SP3. Does editing note in the piano roll  from those different synth could affect the midi velocity or punchyness. Or could it be all the copy paste, or the scale velocity or Varyvel, that permanently transform midi note is some way ?

 

 

Drum_Velocity_Issue.wav

Edited January 23, 2019 by Berserkyd

[scook]

Check it out in the Event List View. There are a lot of duplicate notes. Notice the start times of the notes. For example, there should only be one F#4 at 00:00:00 in track 13. I count 4. It appears the clip X has 3 duplicate notes and clip Y is duplicated once.

 

[scook]

How was the data entered? Bounce to Clip could do it if there were mutiple clips selected when bounced (take lanes maybe).

Run UNDUPE.CAL

[scook]

A different drum synth is probably the biggest factor here. Although you may want to look at the MIDI in the Event View to see if there is something you are missing by inspecting the clips in the PRV.

[Berserkyd]

Thanks for the quick answer, I added a image and an audio file explaining my problem. And I just check the event list. And everything is exactly the same

[scook]

Velocity is not the same as volume. Velocity determines which samples for a given instrument are played. In MIDI volume is CC7 but again using a different synth can make a huge difference. The difference could be the samples themselves, the synth preset or a combination of the two.

[Berserkyd]

Not sure we are on the same page. Well I just did another test, creating the same drum pattern on a project I use Addictive Drums 2, I copy paste the clip (not the wave), into my newest project which use Superior Drum 3 and it still sound like the Midi Y version (weaker), meaning that something happen to the midi X part in some way. I mean I get the difference between velocity and volume, but this is just suppose to be piano roll note no ? I don't create wave with it. Its the piano roll note itself that seem bug. For example I put a violin Synth instead of the drum and I got the same issue. Check the attachment, at the same part of the midi the sound change drastically even if the velocity is the same. Or maybe I really dont get what your trying to say, I apologize, I'm sad 

midi_issue_violin.wav

[msmcleod]

The velocity level relates to how hard the drummer hits the drums.

A velocity of 127 means the drummer is literally hitting the drum as hard as possible.

To be honest, I used to do this in order to get more "punch" out of the inadequate sounds with some of my old drum machines.

For AD2 though, you want to be using a far more conservative velocity. This will give you a much better dynamic range in your track, and a more realistic sound.

@scook is right - the slider volume is what you should be using for volume. If it's still too quiet, try turning everything else down and turn up your master bus fader.

Another thing, MIDI loops created for one drum synth can sound very different when played on another due to the way each drum sound reacts to the velocity. You may need to tweak your velocity curves within AD2 to suit.

 

[Berserkyd]

I think you really don't get my issue here guys. Check the image above, and listen to the wave as well, the same midi note go through the same plug-in, all the note set at 127. The only difference is that midi X note are picked from a project and the midi Y note are created on spot. Than if you listen the audio you can tell that suddenly the drum sound is weaker. Same velocity note in the same plug-in = different sound ... is it me or this is completely out of sens ? 

I'm using now Superior drummer 3 and found better result with greater velocity but you're right I should check the way I handle this but that's a totally different topic.

[msmcleod]

10 minutes ago, Berserkyd said:

I think you really don't get my issue here guys. Check the image above, and listen to the wave as well, the same midi note go through the same plug-in, all the note set at 127. The only difference is that midi X note are picked from a project and the midi Y note are created on spot. Than if you listen the audio you can tell that suddenly the drum sound is weaker. Same velocity note in the same plug-in = different sound ... is it me or this is completely out of sens ? 

I'm using now Superior drummer 3 and found better result with greater velocity but you're right I should check the way I handle this but that's a totally different topic.

When you say it's the same plugin, do you mean the same instance of the plugin or two separate instances within the same project?

[Berserkyd]

I mean I run the midi X and midi Y (check the image to know what I mean), through one plug-in (could be SD3, AD2, etc). It doesn't matter wich plug-in I pick, violin synth for example have the same issue. All the note are 127 velocity, but the midi Y note sound weaker....

Edited January 23, 2019 by Berserkyd

[scook]

I would like to review the project. Can you make it available for download? Just need to two MIDI parts.

[msmcleod]

1 minute ago, Berserkyd said:

I mean I run the midi X and midi Y (see the image to know what I mean), through one plug-in (could be SD3, AD2, etc). It doesn't matter wich plug-in I pick, violin synth for example have the same issue. All the note are 127 velocity, but the midi Y note sound weaker....

The only thing I can think of is possibly the Gain knob on the MIDI channel, but as your velocity is already at 127 I can't see this making a difference.

Has midi X got any other controller information in it e.g. CC 11 (Expression) ?

[Berserkyd]

I check the event list and the piano roll and everything was the same, is there anywhere else I can find information about those note ?

[Berserkyd]

Well I share you the file with only the midi X and midi Y clip inside of it playing on a violin synth. I split the clip at the moment you'll notice the problem. Tell me if you have the issue and if you find anything, its darker than the dark for me. But thanks a lot for the response anyway, I really appreciate it.

Midi_issue.cwp

Edited January 23, 2019 by Berserkyd

[Berserkyd]

Hoooooo, yes thats it (face palm) ! Thanks a lot !! But I wonder how this could happen, is there any tool that can automatically generate those key... because, sadly I prefer that sound... ho man lol  For my defense I never use the event list before  But yeah this is clear as water.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Berserkyd

[Berserkyd]

Cool thanks a lot again !

[Berserkyd]

Doing a quick research on how to get rid of duplicated note, apparently UNDUPE.CAL not really work pretty well, I tried and confirm that its not that great, pretty buggy. People prefer removing note in the staff view, or better put the clip into step sequencer to automatically remove  duplicated note. Only downside with that method is that you need to split your big clip into multiple little clip to make the step sequencer work fine, otherwise the option will shrink your big clip into a tiny one. Or maybe there's an option to make one gigantic step sequencer clip. Anyway that method did work pretty well for me, edit a 13 min track full of double note, into a clean midi clip in maybe what 20 min max.