What happened to the Split Instrument/ Instrument track Icons?

[Bass Guitar]

In another thread here we are sorting out how to add multi output drums after the fact. All is fine but then I thought to save time I would create a track template and then use that. 

Take note that these are all my backing track projects which are all very much the same layout and are pure midi. Many are also holdovers from the early days when I used split instrument tracks. More on that in a minute. 

So I opened another project and I inserted the track template. All went as planed and I now had the SSD5 drums with 6 outputs all properly named and routing all good. I dragged the Midi drums into the what I assumed was an instrument track and it wouldn't play? I dragged the midi back to the midi track and set the output to the instrument track and it plays?? ( by the way holding down shift does not keep the data in sync)  

Then I start noticing that all the icons for the midi tracks look like what I remember as instrument tracks as there is just a little keyboard.

I confirmed that this was happening by first inserting an instrument and then inserting a split instrument. Both have the same icon? Now the question? is this something new or is this yet another graphics issue?  So as it is there is no way to distinguish between the two types of instrument tracks. 

If you look at my screen shot you can see that  Addictive drums is a split track. True pianos is not. And then the Combi organ, orange track is a instrument track and below the green tracks are split instrument tracks but all use same icon.   

Here is new Sonar

Here is Platinum

Edited Friday at 06:23 PM by Bass Guitar
add screenshots

[Glenn Stanton]

when i set up a project like you show, an Instrument track (i.e. contains both MIDI and the VI audio output) the instrument tracks all have the piano icon, and when i split that or simply insert synth, i get both a piano and midi icon (per track respectively).

are you thinking the Instrument track should resemble the older MIDI+keyboard icon rather than simply the keyboard icon?

fwiw, i never use Instrument tracks, just MIDI or audio, this way my templates are organized as "audio outs or record clips" in the top section, and all the MIDI tracks sit all together. i do this A) to avoid confusion, B) i can render and delete all the MIDI and VI and save as a mix project, and C) my record and mix templates are essentially all the same except the mix template has no MIDI tracks.

[Bass Guitar]

Look at the project at the top That is New Sonar. It contains a mixture of Simple and Split instruments but all the icons are the same. 
It should look like the picture below which shows a combination of icons. 
Unless they have recently changed this? 

These are old projects from back when I was still splitting tracks. 

 

[Base 57]

Page 904 of the current Cakewalk Sonar Reference Guide shows a clear difference between the icons of Split Instrument and Simple Instrument tracks.

@Bass Guitar is correct. Sonar is not currently using the Split Instrument Track icon.

[sjoens]

Unfortunately the reference guide uses screenshots from CbB with raster graphics, so not a good reference for this.

[Glenn Stanton]

hmmm in your Sonar one, and i see keyboards on the Instrument, and keyboard and MIDI icons on each respective split.  i think we need to have another icon for Instrument similar to the old one then with the keyboard AND MIDI combined like those of yore...

[Bass Guitar]

@Base 57 did you try inserting a split instrument track to confirm? 
 

I guess the question is this intended or another graphic bug? How come nobody has noticed this? It’s been almost two years? 

[sjoens]

My guess is most users use one or the other, not both, so they never noticed.

[Base 57]

2 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

 did you try inserting a split instrument track to confirm? 

Yes.

And as @sjoens just said, I never noticed until you brought it up. It is pretty low on my list of things the Bakers should work on.

[Bass Guitar]

I really don’t expect anything to get fixed, I was just wondering if it was something that got changed. 
These projects are only backing tracks and probably won’t get any more attention from me. 
 

All important projects when I see a split track I re insert the instrument as a simple track and drag the midi to it and delete the split track. 
Much more tidy. 

[Starship Krupa]

To answer the question in the topic title, the "MIDI+Keyboard" icon was retired from service with the introduction of Cakewalk Sonar.

The MIDI jack icon is used for MIDI tracks. The keyboard icon is used for Synth (VI) tracks.

There is no longer a special icon for Simple Instrument tracks (which are tracks that include both the VI and the MIDI tracks displayed as one unit), which leaves the "Keyboard" icon to do double duty on both Synth and Simple Instrument tracks.

Long form blather:

While I do agree that it would be handy to be able to tell at a glance when a track is a synth track vs. instrument track, not being able to tell is better than having it be backwards. And the way it was was backward: the "Keyboard" icon was displayed on Simple Instrument tracks while an icon that consisted of the "MIDI" and "Keyboard" icons overlaying each other was displayed on Synth tracks.

There was a lot of lobbying, especially from the theme creator community, to swap them so that the icon that was essentially one with Synth and MIDI stuck together would appear on the tracks that were essentially Synth and MIDI stuck together. This lobbying was not acted upon, and the "MIDI+Keyboard" icon was quietly dropped. Those of us who cared kept our mouths shut because anything was better than having it be backward.

Most users probably use either Simple Instrument tracks or separate Synth and MIDI tracks in their projects, but not both at the same time, so being able to tell them apart is not a big deal.

The "MIDI+Keyboard" icon is pretty ideal for indicating a Simple Instrument tracks. I have no idea how or why they got mixed up originally, but looking at it drove me nuts. One of the first things I did with creating themes was to swap those icons around. This could theoretically have led to confusion with the images in the documentation but I didn't care.

[Bass Guitar]

@Starship Krupa

Yes absolutely the way it was made no common sense. 
Sonar is the only Daw Im aware of that has the two types of instrument tracks. There is actually no reason I can think of to have the split tracks. 
For me I think it was I started using them because it must’ve been the default back in 2005. 
The day I discovered the simple instrument track I immediately started using that. 
 

They had an opportunity the eliminate the split track when they re did new Sonar. They seem to prefer leaving old bits behind instead of updating them and removing the old ones. Over time this bad habit has made for a 2,000 page user manual and I think we have 6 or 7 ways to add an instrument track and even then that has a dozen options. You really don’t see that anywhere else. 

[user905133]

32 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

There is actually no reason I can think of to have the split tracks. 

While this might be true for you, please don't make the assumption that there no uses of, benefits for, and workflows that depend on,  having so called "split tracks," including on occasion splitting and combining the parts of hybrid tracks, etc. Thanks. 

[Bass Guitar]

Im confused. What can’t you do with a simple instrument track that you can do with a split?? 
 

Im curious. 

[user905133]

Just now, Bass Guitar said:

Im confused. What can’t you do with a simple instrument track that you can do with a split?? 
 

Im curious. 

At the moment I cannot devote time and energy to get into a debate on personal preferences. Thanks for your offer, though. 

Note: I reserve the right to respond to your questions in several months.  Please, be respectful that others might have different preferences and workflows.  What you choose to do in any given instance or set of circumstances might be are right for you; what others choose to do under various circumstances can be right for them.  Thanks.

[Glenn Stanton]

as a note: i also never use instrument tracks, always a dedicated MIDI and a dedicated audio for my VI. simply a matter of the way i organize my templates and my workflow. i'm sure if the instrument tracks work for folks, good. my preference is to keep them separate. makes aligning my record and mix templates much simpler, and if i'm "cheating", i can readily render my VI and remove the MIDI tracks and VI and drop right in to mixing. 

Edited 17 hours ago by Glenn Stanton

[Bass Guitar]

@Starship Krupa

I’m not debating anything. I realize that there is 2 choices and possibly a 50/50 split between how everyone will choose. 
Im just curious about a use case that if they did remove the split instrument option as to what would happen to those who work that way? 
 

Example you could still have the simple instrument track as well as a midi track or tracks that go there. In other words you don’t have to place the midi data on the instrument track. 
This is what Im curious about. 
The only difference I can think of is that you can’t put midi data on a split instrument track. 
But? 
 

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

4 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

What can’t you do with a simple instrument track that you can do with a split?

I, too am a "splitter," despite having begun using the program when CbB came out.

One thing that I do regularly that I'd find more difficult to do with a Simple Instrument track is drive multiple synths with a single MIDI track. Although, frustratingly, Sonar has no native way of doing this, it can be done with the help of certain MIDI plug-ins that themselves include MIDI out.

Part of my song creation process is to experiment on the fly with different sounds, especially drum sounds. Having the MIDI data separate from the drum machine allows me to quickly switch back and forth between two different drum machines.

When I was first learning CbB, separate MIDI/Synth tracks just seemed more versatile, so I got used to using them.

I agree that part of the Sonar culture still seems to involve hanging on to old workflows so as not to disturb the set in their ways grumpy old man contingent. I've learned to emphasize the word "option" whenever I make a FR like this one, because there will inevitably be someone totally opposed to whatever change and don't want to be forced to adopt it.

[Xoo]

I use both depending on context:

- If it's an, ahem, simple part, I'll use a Simple Instrument Track just to save screen space, as it's unlikely I need quick access to all MIDI parameters

- If it's an instrument with multiple outputs, I'll probably use split tracks for consistency across the (audio) tracks

- If it's a drum synth (likely with multiple audio outs anyway), I'll probably use one track per kit piece (or pieces like all Toms); before anyone says "Drum Maps", I know about them, but I may want to apply a different MIDI FX to the different kit pieces (laziness for randomisation purposes, for example)

- One particular example was where I wanted to use the built-in arpeggiator but change patterns (or, I think, not have the notes arpeggiated for part of the project, and I was seeing unexpected behaviour with the enable/disable switch) so I put each different arpeggiator on a different MIDI track, both pointing to the same synth (everything audio needed to be the same for both parts).

Edited 13 hours ago by Xoo

[Bass Guitar]

But what Im saying is that in the case of both the examples above, there would be no difference if the instrument track was a split or a simple? Both can receive midi data from any midi track. They can also receive data from the output of another instrument if it is set to output midi data. 
Say you woke up one day and the latest update simply removed the option for the split instrument. 
All existing split instruments would open now as simple instrument tracks and because the icon is the same you would not even notice any difference. ?? Yes?