Using Sonar for recording and playback

[Forlænget Spilletid]

Hi

I hope anyone can help with my issue.

We are running a setup with a Midas M32core when playing with my band, We used to use Cubase for recording to use at soundchecks and just general recording for playback.
This has worked fine. But now we have changed to Sonar as our need for more tracks increased. And Cubase could only handle 24 tracks with our version.
And when we record it works fine. But when we try and playback, all tracks are comming back with a LOT more input. Before with Cubase we would get the exact same level send back to the mixer.
We havent changed anything in the mixer since the switch from Cubase to Sonar.
In Sonar I have set up all the tracks with the corrosponding inputs and outputs, ex. track 1 has been setup with channel 1 input when recording and channel 1 as output for when its been played back and so on.

Im totally at a loss here because I cant figure out what is going on as it worked perfectly with Cubase

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:12 PM by Forlænget Spilletid

[Bristol_Jonesey]

What do you mean by "all tracks are coming back with a LOT more input."?

Do you mean they appear louder than you were expecting? Because the levels as shown above seem a bit on the low side.

Also, I would switch off all of those record enableds before playing back

 

[Chaps]

Are your audio tracks being output to the Master bus or straight to the Hardware Outputs?

[Forlænget Spilletid]

2 hours ago, Chaps said:

Are your audio tracks being output to the Master bus or straight to the Hardware Outputs?

I have set the outputs for all tracks to the corresponding channel. Like track 1 output is sent to out 1.
Is that what you mean? :-)

[Forlænget Spilletid]

2 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

What do you mean by "all tracks are coming back with a LOT more input."?

Do you mean they appear louder than you were expecting? Because the levels as shown above seem a bit on the low side.

Also, I would switch off all of those record enableds before playing back

 

When i playback the tracks I have recorded from Sonar and through the mixer. Then the levels are like doubled. Its really wierd. Because there was no problem or special setup needed when I did it with Cubase. Then I could hear the exact same signal as if it was played live.
Does it make sense? :-)

[Bristol_Jonesey]

47 minutes ago, Forlænget Spilletid said:

I have set the outputs for all tracks to the corresponding channel. Like track 1 output is sent to out 1.
Is that what you mean? 🙂

No. Where are the OUTPUTS of your tracks being routed. 

First step to analyse this sort of problem is to eliminate you mixer from the equation. 

Have you routed them to your master output or straight to the main outs?

What are the fader levels on your mains?

[Chaps]

53 minutes ago, Forlænget Spilletid said:

I have set the outputs for all tracks to the corresponding channel. Like track 1 output is sent to out 1.
Is that what you mean? 🙂

I'm pretty sure it isn't. One problem you will have in seeking help here is your unfamiliarity with the specific terms used to describe Cakewalk elements, tools, and processes. I strongly urge you to use the Cakewalk Product Manager to download and install the local Cakewalk Sonar Local Help so you can access the Help files from within Sonar. Or, to download the Cakewalk Sonar Reference Guide as PDF from the top menu under Cakewalk https://bandlab.github.io/cakewalk/docs/Cakewalk Sonar Reference Guide.pdf  . It is an invaluable aid for all users. I keep it on my desktop for easy reference.

The outputs of all audio tracks can be directed to a Bus, acting as a master volume control, before reaching the output device. You can output the audio track to a master bus, or another bus that is output to the master bus. You may or may not have a Master Bus depending on how you created your project. If you have a master bus it will be shown as an option in the output section at the bottom of an audio track. See first image below to see an example of this.

If you do not have a master bus you can create one by right clicking in the bus pane to create a New Stereo Bus. It is common practice to create other buses, like one for guitar or one for bass, and output those to the master bus. To show/hide the bus pane click the two little arrows pointing at each other at the bottom of the track view. See second image.

I strongly urge you to look for videos on YouTube on how to use Cakewalk software. All the versions in the last few years are fundamentally the same when it comes to setting up and recording. We can just keep throwing terms at you that you are unfamiliar which may not be very useful to you so it might be helpful to watch videos that go through different processes, like setting up the program and recording audio.

[dougalex]

I think you are doing what Midas/Behringer calls "virtual sound check"?
The Midas routing for the Card Out is AES50 (the raw stage box inputs), right?
If so, then yeah I would hope you get back the same level (assuming all Sonar gain and fader volume are at the default level)
As @Bristol_Jonesey suggested, definitely try the playback with  "record enable" off.
(Following)

 

[dougalex]

28 minutes ago, Chaps said:

The outputs of all audio tracks can be directed to a Bus, acting as a master volume control, before reaching the output device.

I think he is doing a "virtual sound check" or "mix outside the box" , if so, then each Sonar track/channel gets routed back to the mixer "Card input" in a one-to-one scheme.
In Sonar it would be:
Track1 Output is soundcard Out1
Track2 Output is soundcard Out2
Track3 Output is soundcard Out3
etc

 

 

[Forlænget Spilletid]

1 hour ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

No. Where are the OUTPUTS of your tracks being routed. 

First step to analyse this sort of problem is to eliminate you mixer from the equation. 

Have you routed them to your master output or straight to the main outs?

What are the fader levels on your mains?

But the Mixer is out of the equation. Because when I do it through Cubase it works just like how its supposed to work.
I havent changed a single thing on the mixer. 
Its being send back to the mixer for each channel. Out for track 1 is being send to channel 1 on the mixer, track 2 is being send to channel 2 on the mixer. And so on. So the main outs have nothing to do with the issue.

[Forlænget Spilletid]

1 hour ago, Chaps said:

I'm pretty sure it isn't. One problem you will have in seeking help here is your unfamiliarity with the specific terms used to describe Cakewalk elements, tools, and processes. I strongly urge you to use the Cakewalk Product Manager to download and install the local Cakewalk Sonar Local Help so you can access the Help files from within Sonar. Or, to download the Cakewalk Sonar Reference Guide as PDF from the top menu under Cakewalk https://bandlab.github.io/cakewalk/docs/Cakewalk Sonar Reference Guide.pdf  . It is an invaluable aid for all users. I keep it on my desktop for easy reference.

The outputs of all audio tracks can be directed to a Bus, acting as a master volume control, before reaching the output device. You can output the audio track to a master bus, or another bus that is output to the master bus. You may or may not have a Master Bus depending on how you created your project. If you have a master bus it will be shown as an option in the output section at the bottom of an audio track. See first image below to see an example of this.

If you do not have a master bus you can create one by right clicking in the bus pane to create a New Stereo Bus. It is common practice to create other buses, like one for guitar or one for bass, and output those to the master bus. To show/hide the bus pane click the two little arrows pointing at each other at the bottom of the track view. See second image.

I strongly urge you to look for videos on YouTube on how to use Cakewalk software. All the versions in the last few years are fundamentally the same when it comes to setting up and recording. We can just keep throwing terms at you that you are unfamiliar which may not be very useful to you so it might be helpful to watch videos that go through different processes, like setting up the program and recording audio.

Each track  is being output to the corrosponding channel on the mixer. As you can see on my screenshot. track 1 output is Out 1 on the mixer.

[Colin Nicholls]

It's clear to me you've routed each track to the corresponding hardware output of the interface- I am not sure why folks are getting hung up on that.

Your levels should not be doubled up - there is some kind of loopback taking effect here, perhaps? almost certainly specific to your Audio IO hardware/driver.

I agree that you should disable the record arm during playback just to restore things to a more normal, expected state.
 

This is an example of a valid use-case - essentially treating Sonar as a tape recorder, N tracks in and N tracks out via the hardware. We'll get to the bottom of this!

[Chaps]

1 minute ago, Forlænget Spilletid said:

Each track  is being output to the corrosponding channel on the mixer. As you can see on my screenshot. track 1 output is Out 1 on the mixer.

Okay. Good luck.

[Colin Nicholls]

Huh. I just tried this with one channel on my Presonus Quantum 2626 and I think I'm seeing the same thing.
If I record a constant tone pegged at -27 db on the input meter; on playback via Output 1 I am seeing -21 db on the output meter.

That's 6 db louder. Is this a case of mono tracks getting autopanned center and panning laws applying? Or something?

...yeah could be. If I pan track 1 to be 100% left (instead of the default center) then playback is now -27db, matching input.

My panning laws are set to "0db center, sin/cos taper constant power"

Ok, not sure what is going on. How have you panned your tracks?

Edited 22 hours ago by Colin Nicholls

[David Baay]

Interleave is key to this. If Interleave is Mono, panning doesn't matter. But if Interleave is stereo, you need to pan hard left for odd channels and hard right for even channels. Pan Law doesn't matter when using mono outs.

[Glenn Stanton]

if you set the pan to -3db center when centering, you should see the levels match.