Reamping with Sonar.

[brandon]

Hi - I  intend to send the audio signal of a guitar track (recorded in Sonar) via my audio interface into a guitar amp that has a reamping facility.  I am then going to return the 'reamped' signal onto a new guitar track in Sonar after I have 'mixed' it on the fly.  Thats the easy part. No problems here ( I hope).

To do this I need to be able to listen to my whole audio recording while I mix the now processed guitar track in with it.

My question is how do I manage to take a line out from Sonar into my audio interface while at the same time listening to the newly mixed guitar track within the whole project in real time.

I haven't had to do anything like this before so it may be I am overlooking something very simple.

Thank you

[Chaps]

What audio interface are you using? How are you recording the reamped audio? Are you using a microphone plugged into your audio interface? Line-out from your amplifier? Digital signal? Are you monitoring the recording using headphones?

[Bass Guitar]

To do what you want to do easily a 4 output audio interface would be ideal. 
 

It’s one of the reasons I like to have the extra outputs. Otherwise it would be clunky and involves using one side of 1/2. 

Outputs 1/2 are business as usual from your master bus to your monitor system. 
Then what I do is I add a bus that is going to outputs 3/4. 
I don’t have re-amping I simply just connect outputs 3 or 4 to a patch cable that goes to the input of the amp. 
I always have a Mike on the amp and that of course is connected to my interface. 

I send a guitar track to the 3/4 bus and adjust the level accordingly. There’s a few  send routing options examples are , track output, add a send to the 3/4 bus, use an Aux track that outputs to 3/4. 
 

The direct monitoring system of my interface allows me to listen to the returning signal from the Mike on the amp. I  use headphones so my studio monitors don’t leak into the Mike. 

[Wookiee]

@brandon I suspect you could treat it as an external FX unit using the external FX plugin.

[David Baay]

5 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

To do what you want to do easily a 4 output audio interface would be ideal. 
 

It’s one of the reasons I like to have the extra outputs. Otherwise it would be clunky and involves using one side of 1/2. 

Outputs 1/2 are business as usual from your master bus to your monitor system. 
Then what I do is I add a bus that is going to outputs 3/4. 

This is basically the right approach, but rather than sending the guitar track to a bus, add an External Insert to the Guitar track's FX bin, assign its I/O to spare input and output channels on the interface (probably mono), and click the button to set automatic delay compensation so the returning re-amped signal stays in sync with the rest of the tracks.

[Bass Guitar]

Never had an issue with delay. The way Im doing it is no different than any overdubbing routine. 

I used to use this technique back in the early days of 8 track tape. You had only one guitar track and to make it sound huge you would run the guitar track out in to the live room into one or more amps. Then sometimes set up 4 or more mikes around the room. 
These returned to the mixer and then used in the mix down to master. Gave a mono guitar a huge fat stereo sound. That was the days of Nirvana and Green Day.
And we came up with that idea only through using our imaginations and a glimmer of information that this could be done. 

Having unlimited tracks took all the fun out of recording. 

[David Baay]

13 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

Never had an issue with delay.

It might not be noticeable if your latency is very low and you're mixing the re-amped signal with the raw signal at a relatively low level as your setup implies. In that case, the delay might just add some "space" to the sound which might be desirable. But there's no way you wouldn't have a delay.

I'm not a guitarist, but I would think in most cases you would want to hear only the re-amped signal, using the amp as an insert FX, which is what Exgternal Insert does for you.

[brandon]

4 hours ago, Chaps said:

What audio interface are you using? How are you recording the reamped audio? Are you using a microphone plugged into your audio interface? Line-out from your amplifier? Digital signal? Are you monitoring the recording using headphones?

Hi - Audio interface is Focusrite Scarlet 2i4 2nd gen. 

The reamped audio will be recorded with a mic into the AI. 

Re monitoring the recording this is where my question lies. How do I monitor it in conjunction with the other tracks in my recording to enable me to mix it with them?

[brandon]

2 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

To do what you want to do easily a 4 output audio interface would be ideal. 
 

It’s one of the reasons I like to have the extra outputs. Otherwise it would be clunky and involves using one side of 1/2. 

Outputs 1/2 are business as usual from your master bus to your monitor system. 
Then what I do is I add a bus that is going to outputs 3/4. 
I don’t have re-amping I simply just connect outputs 3 or 4 to a patch cable that goes to the input of the amp. 
I always have a Mike on the amp and that of course is connected to my interface. 

I send a guitar track to the 3/4 bus and adjust the level accordingly. There’s a few  send routing options examples are , track output, add a send to the 3/4 bus, use an Aux track that outputs to 3/4. 
 

The direct monitoring system of my interface allows me to listen to the returning signal from the Mike on the amp. I  use headphones so my studio monitors don’t leak into the Mike. 

When you say you don't have reamping - are you explaining above something that you do that doesnt involve reamping at all?

[brandon]

2 hours ago, David Baay said:

It might not be noticeable if your latency is very low and you're mixing the re-amped signal with the raw signal at a relatively low level as your setup implies. In that case, the delay might just add some "space" to the sound which might be desirable. But there's no way you wouldn't have a delay.

I'm not a guitarist, but I would think in most cases you would want to hear only the re-amped signal, using the amp as an insert FX, which is what Exgternal Insert does for you.

Hi - latency isnt an issue (not sure where that came from) but yes all i want to hear is the reamped signal en route to Sonar AND the signal of the other tracks in my project so I can mix the reamped guitar in with them.

[Chaps]

33 minutes ago, brandon said:

Hi - Audio interface is Focusrite Scarlet 2i4 2nd gen. 

The reamped audio will be recorded with a mic into the AI. 

Re monitoring the recording this is where my question lies. How do I monitor it in conjunction with the other tracks in my recording to enable me to mix it with them?

Doesn't look like there is mixing software with this model (I didn't see any) so everything you want you should be able to accomplish with your interface's front panel controls. Different methods of outputting your recorded guitar audio to your amplifier have been suggested. See what works best for you. The Input/Playback knob is how you blend the audio from Sonar with the audio from the microphone in your headphones. Turn the knob to the Playback position and you will only hear the Sonar audio playback. Turn the knob to Input and you will only hear with is coming into the interface's input, the microphone. find the balance between the two by turning that knob.

I have to ask, though. Why is it important to mix the two signals while reamping when you can just reamp the guitar part, record it on a separate track, and then mix them after the recording is finished. Maybe I'm missing something but is seems that would be a simpler method.

[Bass Guitar]

You monitor it the same way you monitor any input signals. Your interface has a proper control for direct monitoring. You can control the balance between the mikes input and the Daw playback with the direct monitoring balance knob. This gives you the Zero Latency option. 
And @David Baaythis is why I don’t have any latency. I think too many people rely on using the input echo system for monitoring. Why would you use that with audio when most all interfaces have direct monitoring capabilities. 
 

The only use case for using the input echo to monitor is when you want the wet signal like when using a guitar sim. 
 

If you’re hearing latency when tracking then you are not set up properly. 

 

[Bass Guitar]

58 minutes ago, brandon said:

When you say you don't have reamping - are you explaining above something that you do that doesnt involve reamping at all?

I actually don’t know what re-amping capabilities means because it seems all it would be is properly matching the signal going into the amp. That’s what I mean by adjusting the signal fed from the 3/4 output. It most certainly works. 
Example is I can feed a guitar track that was recorded using a DI so it is clean, to my Fender Princeton and by adjusting the output from Sonar and the Amp set at 7 or 8 I can get that wonderful tube overdrive. 
It’s a little extra work compared to using TH-U but it’s the sound quality difference that makes it worth it. 
Hence I end up with the 2 completely different sounds on the 2 tracks and then I like to pan those. The original clean track will get the TH-U. 
Experimenting with different guitar sounds is the most fun for me of anything else I do in recording. 

 

[David Baay]

32 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

The only use case for using the input echo to monitor is when you want the wet signal like when using a guitar sim. 

... or when mixing with real-time external processing as in this case.

And there are many other valid use cases. As a long-time and ongoing hardware synth user, I have always monitered through the box since it became possible to do with reasonable latency.

I assume the the reason the OP wants to do it is to be able to tweak the amp to get a good-sounding mix before recording or maybe even to rehearse control moves that he wants to execute while recording.

 

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, brandon said:

all i want to hear is the reamped signal en route to Sonar AND the signal of the other tracks in my project

In that case, John has you covered with direct monitoring and the Input/Playback mix control.

[mettelus]

48 minutes ago, Bass Guitar said:

Example is I can feed a guitar track that was recorded using a DI so it is clean, to my Fender Princeton and by adjusting the output from Sonar and the Amp set at 7 or 8 I can get that wonderful tube overdrive. 

Zowie, just had a power blip after typing up a detailed routing and lost it, so will make this routing version short and sweet. It sounds like the OP's intent is a hardware re-amp (out to amp, in to Scarlett), so the "monitor mix" would be outputs 1/2 (including all tracks (including the mic input), but SANS the amp out (output that to 3/4), 3/4 would go to only the amp, and input 1/2 (mic) would go to a new track (and included in the monitor mix). This pathing will insert some latency, is more if that is "tolerable" to you.

But to the more important part.... That said, any time I hear "re-amp" I am assuming a Direct Input (DI) signal is involved as @Bass Guitar mentioned above, simply because re-amping an already processed signal is not ideal (that is an understatement). The use of a guitar amp sim VSTi (TH-U, TH-3, TH-2, Guitar Rig, HELIX Native, whatever) from the get-go only records the DI signal so makes re-amping either way (hardware or VSTi) simpler. Alternatively, some amps do have a DI output (rare), but this can also be achieved with hardware pedals that focus on that. As you are just getting your feet wet with physical re-amping, going the VSTi route might be simpler (record just the DI, "re-amp" with the VSTi as well, then shift to the physical re-amp to get a feel for that). The real point I am getting at here is that "DI track" is a must if re-amping is your intent, and by starting with a VSTi, that DI track is what you will be recording (guitar straight into the Scarlett on the first recording pass). 

Guitar amp sims are their own little playground, and there are tricks to getting them to sound realistic (another topic unto itself), but my concern/caution is more to having an unprocessed DI signal readily available since "re-amp" got laid on the table with the OP.