giant ll Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) Hi all. I have a question. I'm trying to approach the guitar solo of a song "Beat It" Michael Jackson. The solo is from Van Halen. I would like to quantize the solo and i'm not sure if is necessary also for backing track with a metronome speed. I would like to ear all "perfectly on time". It would be necessary to study well some "licks" because they are rhytmically complex.. and withouth a metronome sincronization make it a bit more difficult. How could i work on it, on Bandlab or Sonar? at the moment i have both. Could anybody help me? I have separate tracks 1)drum 2)bass 3)voice 4)guitar backing track and solo together I also tried to separate backing for solo in guitar.. but moises withouth paying doesn't permit me. So .. i have all guitars in one track. Edited July 25 by giant ll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Guitar Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) This works on most songs that have a steady beat. Separate song into stems using Next or Audacity. Now drag the drum track to the timeline of Sonar and the Melodyne dialogue will open. Choose auto or percussive This will automatically create a tempo map. You can also do this directly in Melodyne stand alone and export the tempo map as a midi file. To have measures line up Turn on Ripple edit and turn off snap to grid. Drag all the tracks until the downbeat is on the start of measure 2 or 3. I have done this dozens of times with rock cover songs. The metronome should now follow the song. Stem separation AI has not really gotten sophisticated enough to extract individual parts. The solo you are after probably has easily available tab or notation available. Possibly even videos of how to play it. I’d tend to start there first. Edited July 26 by Bass Guitar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted July 27 Author Share Posted July 27 20 hours ago, Bass Guitar said: Now drag the drum track to the timeline of Sonar and the Melodyne dialogue will open. Choose auto or percussive This will automatically create a tempo map. You can also do this directly in Melodyne stand alone and export the tempo map as a midi file. Hi. I have only the free version of Sonar and Melodyne. Can i make this or it ask me to activate Melodyne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted July 27 Author Share Posted July 27 20 hours ago, Bass Guitar said: Stem separation AI has not really gotten sophisticated enough to extract individual parts. Yes. I've separated all except rhythm from solo guitar at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted July 27 Author Share Posted July 27 (edited) 21 hours ago, Bass Guitar said: The solo you are after probably has easily available tab or notation available. Possibly even videos of how to play it. I’d tend to start there first. The problem is this: 1)there is a part with harmonycs and whammy bar and yes.. i've found it by ear. 2)there is a second part with tapping, here starts.. the problems. I've found different Youtube video tutorial.. but they don't satisfy me, in the sense: They don't play the part slowly and after put the speed up. I've analyzed different tabs. Everyone write the part in a different way! Lol! Who write quintuplets--- who write sextuplets.. who write seven-- plets... in the same part. I think there is lot of counfusion in who try to approach this solo. One point for example is the first tapping. It give perception of " out" because he plays movements(geometrically) of 5 notes.. 15(T) 14 12 10 14 with 6 or more notes per "beat" in a point (beat immaginary i mean). The "tapped" accent moves continuosly... Who try to approach often loose the accent. I think it's a reason because some of them can't play it slowly. They make the easier work.. just tell the notes.. Slowly they play notes in 4.. everytime with same accent... on 1... and after make the cover fastly. I think it's not the better way. The next part.. same problem. I would like to approach this solo understanding before what he make, and making slowly. After put up the metronome.. That's one of the reasons because i'm trying to quantize a bit the song. They just show the notes.. the picking positions.. the licks.. I can find the notes by myself. Is the "timing" part of the secret of this solo i think.. nobody of Youtube Video Lessons i've found analyze it. That's what i think. Edited July 27 by giant ll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettelus Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, giant ll said: They don't play the part slowly and after put the speed up. I've analyzed different tabs. A different approach to what you are doing (learning the solo): You can download videos (or extract the audio from one) with 4K Video Downloader (FREE version, or similar). Using a video player like VLC Media Player (also free), you can adjust playback speed (Playback->Speed->Option of your choice). While this doesn't allow for fine-tune dialing in of a speed, it is usable. With audio only, RiffStation can still be downloaded (link is in the OP, that was unlocked for everyone when they discontinued development), and it not only has fine tuning with speed, but also an audio microscope on the one tab to allow you to zero in on the frequencies you want to hear (so separating stems is rarely necessary). A couple additional notes... tabs are not always accurate... I had someone playing Def Leppard's "Rocket" once and asked what they were doing... "The tab has pulloffs in it!"... "Um, those notes ring, so they are not pulloffs... adjust those first two notes up a string and try it." Lightbulb moment for them. Especially on slow speed you can hear nuances in performances... let your ears and fingers guide you. Also... a video of the performance is prefered for slowing down... Orianthi has a nice one done adhoc in a radio station that shows her playing well. She was slated to play guitar for Michael Jackson's final tour (but didn't because he died), and he always commented on her playing that particular solo. Edited July 27 by mettelus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Guitar Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 3 hours ago, giant ll said: Hi. I have only the free version of Sonar and Melodyne. Can i make this or it ask me to activate Melodyne? Melodyne basic version always worked to extract a tempo in Sonar going way back to X3 I think. Melodyne has always require you create an account even for the free version that is included with most Daw's these days. Small inconvenience. That will get your foot in the door and upgrades are dirt cheap, especially on black Friday. Melodyne is possibly one of the most important tools you'll ever own. People think it's just for vocal pitch correction. It does WAY more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted Sunday at 06:52 PM Author Share Posted Sunday at 06:52 PM (edited) 4 hours ago, Bass Guitar said: Melodyne is possibly one of the most important tools you'll ever own. People think it's just for vocal pitch correction. It does WAY more than that. Good to know. Unfortunately i have some problems in making working it with Sonar at the moment. Never used before. I'll try to use it in next days. Normalize this track would be really important for me. I can make a region FX, for other functions i'm not sure. Ok, i can create an account if it's necessary and it ask it to me. Edited Sunday at 07:09 PM by giant ll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted Sunday at 07:06 PM Author Share Posted Sunday at 07:06 PM (edited) 5 hours ago, mettelus said: A different approach to what you are doing (learning the solo): You can download videos (or extract the audio from one) with 4K Video Downloader (FREE version, or similar). Yes, i've downloaded it. With another page. It was necessary to work on it better with my softwares. Extract the audio, put it a 1/2t up because it's in Eb tuning. In that way i don't need to change pitch to my guitar and it's really useful. 5 hours ago, mettelus said: With audio only, RiffStation can still be downloaded (link is in the OP, that was unlocked for everyone when they discontinued development), and it not only has fine tuning with speed, but also an audio microscope on the one tab to allow you to zero in on the frequencies you want to hear (so separating stems is rarely necessary). Yes i've downloaded it. Really useful because i've separate the frequencies and i ear directly the solo withouth a "high volume" of rhytmin. Also put slower the solo. 5 hours ago, mettelus said: A couple additional notes... tabs are not always accurate... I had someone playing Def Leppard's "Rocket" once and asked what they were doing... "The tab has pulloffs in it!"... "Um, those notes ring, so they are not pulloffs... adjust those first two notes up a string and try it." Lightbulb moment for them. Especially on slow speed you can hear nuances in performances... let your ears and fingers guide you. Yes. Tabs are not always accurate expecially if they are not official. Tabs found on internet.. some are good.. some not. It's always better using it as example but check with personal ear (and finger). I usually make this. 5 hours ago, mettelus said: Also... a video of the performance is prefered for slowing down... Orianthi has a nice one done adhoc in a radio station that shows her playing well. She was slated to play guitar for Michael Jackson's final tour (but didn't because he died), and he always commented on her playing that particular solo. The video of Orianthi is really nice and show some "positions", so it could be useful. Unfortunately the Van Halen Version that i'm studying is unique.. she had to change some notes and it's normal. I think every guitarist made it, also who played with him, sometimes. One example: the "legato" part after first tapping is too large for lot of people who doesn't have the hand large.. of Van Halen. It's normal phisical. I'm started from the original version.. so i'm trying to learn it. This passage is really large because the index finger is on 12th fret and the little finger on 19th. Make it slow down i'm trying to get all notes and follow. Timing is a problem until a person don't know if he was thinking sextuplets or other.. normalize is an interesting experiment to see how IA could be useful but i'll try to listen also different approaches. Expecially in that year sometimes is not easy get accurate video . I'm using what i have. Edited Sunday at 07:27 PM by giant ll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol_Jonesey Posted Sunday at 07:36 PM Share Posted Sunday at 07:36 PM 43 minutes ago, giant ll said: Good to know. Unfortunately i have some problems in making working it with Sonar at the moment. Never used before. I'll try to use it in next days. Normalize this track would be really important for me. I can make a region FX, for other functions i'm not sure. Ok, i can create an account if it's necessary and it ask it to me. It's really important to read the Melodyne manual. Going in blind can and will result in failure. I know from experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettelus Posted Sunday at 07:56 PM Share Posted Sunday at 07:56 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, giant ll said: One example: the "legato" part after first tapping is too large for lot of people who doesn't have the hand large.. of Van Halen. It's normal phisical. I'm started from the original version.. so i'm trying to learn it. This passage is really large because the index finger is on 12th fret and the little finger on 19th. Make it slow down i'm trying to get all notes and follow. If you search around, there are videos with varying degrees of accuracy with the solo. Even playing live Eddie embellished it over the studio version. This is another that is pretty spot on and done to a backing track of the song (is also YouTube, so easy to download). Quick edit: Sorta funny, but the very next video that came up after that one walks through the finger spread you mentioned above. He actually focuses on just that section and walks through it in detail. Edited Sunday at 08:30 PM by mettelus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted Monday at 10:04 AM Author Share Posted Monday at 10:04 AM (edited) 14 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said: It's really important to read the Melodyne manual. Going in blind can and will result in failure. I know from experience Ok, i will. Anyway it ask me to activate now. It seem that i can use it only for reading.. so i cannot modify files. Edited Monday at 10:24 AM by giant ll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted Monday at 10:26 AM Author Share Posted Monday at 10:26 AM (edited) In the page linked for activation i see this: trial version or buy license. Edited Monday at 10:27 AM by giant ll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giant ll Posted Monday at 12:18 PM Author Share Posted Monday at 12:18 PM (edited) 17 hours ago, mettelus said: If you search around, there are videos with varying degrees of accuracy with the solo. Even playing live Eddie embellished it over the studio version. This is another that is pretty spot on and done to a backing track of the song (is also YouTube, so easy to download). Quick edit: Sorta funny, but the very next video that came up after that one walks through the finger spread you mentioned above. He actually focuses on just that section and walks through it in detail. Yes. The second you sent me it's really interesting because focus lot on the "large" part of i was talking before. Thanks for sharing me this. There is also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO0_YCK4z8 that is really interesting in that direction. He also has the intelligent idea of sometimes using the 14th on the 6th string instead of 19th on the 5th string, f#is the same note, but useful for relax the hand in one little point. So.. for positions i feel ok, i just need to practise, practise, practise but filling together the original version by ear and this examples i have enough material to work on it. Anyway.. every version is a bit different.. also if they are similar.. two or three notes are different is normal.. it is why i prefere on "final stage" using the original "by ear" to get the "exact" notes in the right progression. Expecially in "rhythm" for also some reason told after. The riffstation you sent me is really useful for this, taking off the rhytmn at a very low level.. now i can ear also better the solo part. Every note slowly. As i told before.. we are talking about positions and geometrics. Nobody of them focus on "rhythmn" playing slowly with metronome some parts. They play slowly to show the notes.. ok.. but are two different things. There's a reason: is really difficult. For example in the tapping there are groups of 5 notes.. andi think play about 6 notes for beat(immaginary).. this is not really clear. So.. that problem remain.. and a "normalize" could be really useful.. but.. making togetether my ear, this material i will try to make the best similar version i can. P.s: for study this didactical videos i don't need to download them. I need to download the original version, in an audio file, obviously, for working with software on that. It is necessary. For the videos.. i use this extension for chrome https://transpose.video/ . This permit me to change key withouth change guitar pitch from E to Eb, one half tone below. I can play very slow the video directly watching Youtube. I can change also pitch (440 or different?) and loop etc.. I don't use Chrome very much.. but when i study this videos is useful for me using this. For other things i use another browser. Edited Monday at 01:44 PM by giant ll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Guitar Posted Monday at 05:20 PM Share Posted Monday at 05:20 PM 21 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said: It's really important to read the Melodyne manual. Going in blind can and will result in failure. I know from experience For sure this is important! I had totally given up on it and one day I got the video links they email me at least once a month. I started watching them at finally got it! I try and watch them as they come out but most are demonstrating stuff that I would never do. But the starting out videos are worth watching a couple of times. I just love that I can basically work with audio the way you work with midi. I would imagine that getting the audio of the solo into Melodyne would be a good way to actually see the notes and the timing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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