Are We Only As Good As Our Samples?

[Johnbee58]

I admit it.  I'm poor.  I don't have the biggest budget in the world for home recording because, frankly, other things come first, like, for instance, LIFE!

I'm retired and on a fixed income.  I have to pay for mortgage, food, medical insurance among other things, but I still love music and I love making it and I don't think I'm that bad at it. Here are some things I wish I could afford:

 

A $4000.00 Sweetwater Creation Station

The biggest and best Pro Tools set up

A Universal Audio effects chip

The BEST sample libraries money can buy for every instrument.

Every professional microphone in existence.

And a room big enough for all of this!!

 

But instead, I'm poor so I have to settle for Toontrack EZ Drummer and EZ Keys (How terrible)!! and a handful of other CHEAP plugins and equipment.

It makes me SOOOOOOOO angry when I put a song up on a song forum and somebody who seemingly has all the money in the world to spend (like $600.00+ $$$$$$ on a fricken' REVERB plugin) says to me "Your music is good but too bad you don't have better samples".  This makes me just want to throw everything I have away because it apparently doesn't matter how much heart and soul I put into my music.  It's only as good as my (cheap) sample library!

FWIW-I don't think it's very classy or considerate to do this, especially REPEATEDLY!

I'm just so sick and tired of some of the attitudes of some of the people on this forum.  I'm so glad for those of you who can afford EVERYTHING! Congratulations!

Some of us (like me) have to, using the old expression, make do and do without.

 

?John B

[Gswitz]

We all share your love.

We all have made different choices in how to spend what we have.

We all have stories about recordings we made with minimal gear.

Keep doing your thing.

Keep your head up.

Most people on the forum would never intend offense.

[Johnbee58]

Oh, for the record-I LOVE Toontrack (lest anybody take what I said above seriously about how terrible it is.  I was being facetious).

Their products are ingenious and they are great songwriting tools.  Not a thing wrong with their sounds either (unless, of course, you're a snob).

JB

[DeeringAmps]

I’d go (actually have gone) with Jim at StudioCat. 

ProTools? Well I’ve passed on that; just so you know, I’ve seen the full meal deal in action, can you hear me yawning?

The UA thang, least favorite investment I made last year, just being honest here.

 I own more good mics than the 4 mic inputs and outboard pres (8 line ins in addition to the 4 pres on the UFX. 

Oh god do I love to buy reverb plugs, yikes!

Never felt like I was “settling” with ToonTracks! And I do understand you were being facetious. 

As to samples, you’re only as good as your creativity allows, you know the rest. 

John, honestly I’ve never thought “if only he” when reviewing your work. Someone did mention it was time to try a “full band” on one of your tunes; that was a complement man! You’re fine brother, just keep rockin’ in the free world!

Tom

[Starise]

I have realized I can make ok music with what I have which is a far cry from the samples collections those who are into movie production use.

If you are happy with it and if you are doing this mainly for you what else matters?  In some forum settings I've been in, there is an expectation that the poster wants critique and so people go over it with a fine toothed comb. In other forums it's all about "feel good" and you could post almost anything and someone will like it and seldom will anyone comment about anything they hear and flag as an issue. In many cases the general feel or vibe of the place dictates popularity. IOW if you happen to be making pop music and 90% of the listener base makes rock/pop you are more likely to be affirmed. I can say that because I noticed when I started to compose music that wasn't pop people would say, "This isn't really my cuppa" and then go on to attempt to say something about it. No harm in that. They are just being honest, so I keep my expectations low when I post anything at one of those sites which isn't very often BTW. 

On the other side of it at some composer forums those guys are often well versed in music theory but don't have a clue about DAWS, so they put together stuff with low end rompler samples and well..........it's  going to sound like it unfortunately. Some of them are coming around to DAWS. I have a tough time wrapping my head around what some of them are trying to do. I mean no disrespect there. I just don't "get it".  Not the kind of thing I would sit around listening to. I'm sure some of them would probably say the same things about the music I make. The reason I feel the way I do is because I think music should at least go somewhere, even if it isn't the common pop/rock VCVCBCC or similar. If a person is writing classical music I need to feel something besides dizzy.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Starise

[Johnbee58]

I don't get it around here too often.  I've had it more in other forums.    When I think of some of the poor samples I used to use years ago I'm so grateful for Toontrack.  I mean yeah, there are high end (and high priced) samples libraries out there that sound WAY better.  They're sampled at a much higher resolution rate and more of the individual notes are sampled, so of course, they are going to be several HUNDREDS of $$$$$$$$$ more in price and you're going to get something for that, but really, Toontrack isn't bad.  EZ Keys sounds like a piano.  Not as much as the Synthogy Ivory Italian Grande, but not bad at all for the price they ask.  Then add the browser function (yeah, I know a REAL pianist wouldn't need it) and it's a perfect songwriter tool.  Then, you could get into the individual sample libraries for all the orchestral instruments, but by the time you buy all of those you've spent big bucks.  I can see it if you're a pro, but then they become the "tools of the trade" just like a carpenter needs the best hammer he can get his hands on.  I'm just a poor music lovin' amateur.  I don't need the best.  I need what I can afford.

?JB

[bayoubill]

"I'm poor so I have to settle "  <---- What John said

I record for fun only.  I don't have anything fancy and all my recordings are "punch the record button and play" which is pretty easy to hear in everything I record

Don't compete.  No need to cuz the way I look at it your music is you and that in itself makes it unique so no need to compete here in cakeland unless you're selling something ?

[InstrEd]

Don't worry about it John.

[craigb]

I have some music stuck in my head, but I've yet to find a device that adequately connects between my head and a DAW...  I've tried some methods, but the results were subpar!  Maybe I need to get one of those new HDMI 2.1 ports embedded in my head, ya? 

[slartabartfast]

The question is not whether you are as good as your samples, but rather is your recorded production as good as those done with more expensive stuff. If you are writing and arranging your own work, then the analogy is that your work performed by a mid-level orchestra may not be as good as the same work performed by a world class philharmonic. It is the same creative work in either case, but the performance probably is not the same. Expensive software and hardware in the hands of a mediocre composer/producer is not going to lead to great work, but likely an experienced genius can make a final recording that sounds better with better equipment. But it is not the equipment that makes a genius. 

[Tezza]

It depends what kind of music you make but I think great midi samples or loops for the music you are producing is important. Having a good and well setup guitar if you are a guitarist, being able to sing and having one good mic if you are going to do your own vocals. Keyboards are generally well catered for one way or another.

A modern computer, nothing fancy needed really though, as long as its got multiple SSD's, In the box plugins ok.

I don't use Toontrack instruments but I used to, I moved away from them because of the download/authorization process.  EZ Drummer is ok but surely it's not that much to move to superior drummer or wait for some specials on other drum programs. There is a big jump in sound there, it's also not that hard to get something better than EZ keys, even Piano 192, the free one is better sounding as a piano. You should be able to move up to something better for not much coin. I'm sure those who are listening to your stuff are just giving honest feedback. If your poor you just have to do more legwork to get the good samples and pounce about now, black Friday.

Is this about cost or is it about change? Moving to something different can be a bit of a learning curve at first, just cram it in and the new becomes old very quickly.

 

[Michael Vogel]

I wonder if people can really do critical listening on uploaded audio and determine that samples used are of a lesser quality. 
Poor arrangements and bad recording techniques could be picked up from compressed audio but I reckon that’s the best Ctenophora of it. 

[Johnbee58]

4 hours ago, Tezza said:

It depends what kind of music you make but I think great midi samples or loops for the music you are producing is important. Having a good and well setup guitar if you are a guitarist, being able to sing and having one good mic if you are going to do your own vocals. Keyboards are generally well catered for one way or another.

A modern computer, nothing fancy needed really though, as long as its got multiple SSD's, In the box plugins ok.

I don't use Toontrack instruments but I used to, I moved away from them because of the download/authorization process.  EZ Drummer is ok but surely it's not that much to move to superior drummer or wait for some specials on other drum programs. There is a big jump in sound there, it's also not that hard to get something better than EZ keys, even Piano 192, the free one is better sounding as a piano. You should be able to move up to something better for not much coin. I'm sure those who are listening to your stuff are just giving honest feedback. If your poor you just have to do more legwork to get the good samples and pounce about now, black Friday.

Is this about cost or is it about change? Moving to something different can be a bit of a learning curve at first, just cram it in and the new becomes old very quickly.

 

SNOB ALERT!!  SNOB ALERT!!

I just priced EZ Drummer 2 and Superior Drummer 3.  Not that much of a move.  Are you kidding me?!?

Based on regular retail price:EZ Drummer 2- $149.00      Superior Drummer  3 -$399.00

I'm glad $250.00 isn't much of a jump to you, friend.  To me that's the price of just a few of my monthly medications!

I'm so glad you're frickin' rich that you can afford the best.   Either that or you suck at math.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Johnbee58

[Johnbee58]

5 hours ago, slartabartfast said:

The question is not whether you are as good as your samples, but rather is your recorded production as good as those done with more expensive stuff. If you are writing and arranging your own work, then the analogy is that your work performed by a mid-level orchestra may not be as good as the same work performed by a world class philharmonic. It is the same creative work in either case, but the performance probably is not the same. Expensive software and hardware in the hands of a mediocre composer/producer is not going to lead to great work, but likely an experienced genius can make a final recording that sounds better with better equipment. But it is not the equipment that makes a genius. 

Agreed.  A lot must me said of the talent of the person who uses the tools, cheap or expensive.

?JB

 

[Johnbee58]

3 hours ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

I wonder if people can really do critical listening on uploaded audio and determine that samples used are of a lesser quality. 
Poor arrangements and bad recording techniques could be picked up from compressed audio but I reckon that’s the best Ctenophora of it. 

A few months back I found a video on YouTube that compared 10 or 15 piano sample libraries.  He played the same 10 or so bars of a piece of music on each of the libraries and at the beginning of every video he superimposed what library he was playing at the time.  I remember he went through many of the Native Instrument libraries, some Addictive Keys samples, some quite expensive and some quite cheap.  Among them was EZ Keys.  I guess I just don't have the sensitive ears that our friend, Tezza has but really, when they got to EZ Keys, even though I strained my ears to hear a difference, I could not.  EZK sounded just as good as Alicia's Keys or the Vienna or the Addictive Keys samples.  I'm not putting those libraries down, but I didn't hear much difference in the sound comparison, but then again, I'm not as talented or as special as some people on this forum.

?JB

[Tezza]

Why don't you just start another post saying you want to move from EZ drummer to something better and not too expensive. You might be surprised there could be something that fits in with your budget. This would at least be a positive hing to do. Or if you like EZ drummer, keep using it and ignore the haters. A decent piano is not hard to find.

You've already got some samples there that are excellent quality, Trillian, Miroslav, NI strings and Acoustic guitar, Arturia DX7, so I don't know what your on about. Just upgrade your drums and get a decent piano. I think one comes with Miroslav anyway, so use that and just get some better drums.

If your playing Trillian with EZ drummer, your not doing it justice anyway.

 

[Johnbee58]

4 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Why don't you just start another post saying you want to move from EZ drummer to something better and not too expensive. You might be surprised there could be something that fits in with your budget. This would at least be a positive hing to do. Or if you like EZ drummer, keep using it and ignore the haters. A decent piano is not hard to find.

You've already got some samples there that are excellent quality, Trillian, Miroslav, NI strings and Acoustic guitar, Arturia DX7, so I don't know what your on about. Just upgrade your drums and get a decent piano. I think one comes with Miroslav anyway, so use that and just get some better drums.

If your playing Trillian with EZ drummer, your not doing it justice anyway.

 

Because I don't want to move from EZ Drummer!!!!!!!!

It already "fits my budget" and in my opinion it's a fine instrument!  You don't think so.  Fine!  Let's just agree to disagree.   It's not your choice, but it's mine, OK?

BTW-I got Trillian a few years ago as a present from a friend who was financially better off then me (at the time), but I couldn't have afforded it on my own. 

?

[Canopus]

I honestly don’t care what other people think when it comes to virtual instruments. I only ask myself whether I like them or not. If I don’t, I won’t buy them no matter how must hype there is. And if I do, I might just buy it. But already having so many virtual instruments, the threshold for yet another purchase keeps getting higher and higher and the threshold for a true no-brainer price keeps getting lower and lower.

One recent example: a week ago I bought the SampleTekk S.S.G (Small Studio Grand) for $7.90 on their Black Friday sale. I immediately loved the sound. I think it’s based on a Yamaha C3 or G3 but I’m not sure as SampleTekk won’t say. So while price is an important factor in any purchase decision, it has nothing to do with how you personally perceive the sound coming from the instrument. As for Toontrack EZkeys I have quite a few of those as well, and in particular the Upright have had very good reviews for being able to cut through the mix ever since it was released. Whereas for e.g. Alicia’s Keys (which I got as part of a bundle) I just can’t understand the hype – after a quick play-through I’ve never ever used it.

Of course, there will always be people trying to motivate their high-priced purchases by claiming they are supreme. And I've never heard anybody doubt that Superior Drummer is better that EZDrums.  But if something sounds good to your ears and the price is right, what else is there to ask for? As I said in another thread a few years back, not everyone needs a Mercedes Benz. For most people a Toyota will suffice. So be your own judge. I certainly try to be.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Canopus
Canopus' Law.

[Johnbee58]

8 minutes ago, Canopus said:

I honestly don’t care what other people think when it comes to virtual instruments. I only ask myself whether I like them or not. If I don’t, I won’t buy them no matter how must hype there is. And if I do, I might just buy it. But already having so many virtual instruments, the threshold for yet another purchase keeps getting higher and higher and the threshold for a true no-brainer price keeps getting lower and lower.

One recent example: a week ago I bought the SampleTekk S.S.G (Small Studio Grand) for $7.90 on their Black Friday sale. I immediately loved the sound. I think it’s based on a Yamaha C3 or G3 but I’m not sure as SampleTekk won’t say. So while price is an important factor in any purchase decision, it has nothing to do with how you personally perceive the sound coming from the instrument. As for Toontrack EZkeys I have quite a few of those as well, and in particular the Upright have had very good reviews for being able to cut through the mix ever since it was released. Whereas for e.g. Alicia’s Keys (which I got as part of a bundle) I just can’t understand the hype – after a quick play-through I’ve never ever used it.

Of course, there will always be people trying to motivate their high-priced purchases by claiming they are supreme. And I've never heard anybody doubt that Superior Drummer is better that EZDrums.  But if something sounds good to your ears and the price is right, what else is there to ask for? As I said in another thread a few years back, not everyone needs a Mercedes Benz. For most people a Toyota will suffice. So be your own judge. I certainly try to be.

 

I like the way you think.

?JB

[PhonoBrainer]

The title to your thread is "Are we only as good as our samples" - that's an intriguing notion and could be a very worthy discussion.

The content of your responses, however, leans towards calling people "Snobs" who have (arguably) better or more expensive sound sources than you do.

wtf?

If you just really want to pull the "snob" trigger, then that is class warfare, not a thread about sound source quality.

If you want to generally lament about your lack of dinero and the limitations it enforces upon your music, I think that's completely fine here. We all make do with what we've got - everyone makes do with what they've got. By all means, complain about your finances. People might offer suggestions. 1) credit card?  2) political affiliations? I mean, if a politician was offering "Free Kontakt for All Who Want It", or a cool free "$1,000 a month" minimum income, you might vote for them?

 

Beyond that, when people try to be helpful, maybe don't call them names like "snob"

 

Good luck in your endeavors.

-Tom