Carol Kaye Declines Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction:

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, fjz said:

I can't seem to find a definition for music that clearly states that all 3 elements must be present.

Again, I'll stick with what I learned in school and via the Berklee correspondence course.

I paid for those lessons, and I'm going to use them  

Melody, harmony, and rhythm are all components of music, but according to what I learned, you need all three for it to be music.

But like I said earlier, we probably just need to agree to disagree. 

[fjz]

1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

But like I said earlier, we probably just need to agree to disagree. 

Agreed  

[craigb]

Bob's too nice.  Is it ok if I criticize rap?  😁

[Shane_B.]

3 hours ago, craigb said:

Bob's too nice.  Is it ok if I criticize rap?  😁

No. Sorry. This is a music related forum only. 

[Notes_Norton]

18 hours ago, craigb said:

Bob's too nice.  Is it ok if I criticize rap?  😁

Neither you nor I nor anyone else has to like it, and we can list reasons why, but it's hard to argue with something that makes zillions of dollars. 

I don't like football, hang gliding, or hot peppers, but lots of people do. And I can think of reasons why I don't like them. Football=boring. Hang gliding=dangerous. Hot peppers=the plants developed that to keep animals from eating them, who am I to argue?

 

[pedwal wally wally wha]

24 minutes ago, Notes_Norton said:

I don't like football, hang gliding, or hot peppers, but lots of people do. And I can think of reasons why I don't like them. Football=boring. Hang gliding=dangerous. Hot peppers=the plants developed that to keep animals from eating them, who am I to argue?

you missed the cricket joke there 

[Notes_Norton]

2 hours ago, pedant said:

you missed the cricket joke there 

Crikey—I cleanly missed the clever cricket joke that someone cracked. It's a catastrophe by Jiminy.

(I haven't watched TV since the early 1990s, so all my TV references are old—I'm approaching my codger years.)

[pedwal wally wally wha]

14 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Crikey—I cleanly missed the clever cricket joke that someone cracked. It's a catastrophe by Jiminy.

(I haven't watched TV since the early 1990s, so all my TV references are old—I'm approaching my codger years.)

 

[Starship Krupa]

On 6/30/2025 at 9:34 AM, Notes_Norton said:

what I learned in school and via the Berklee correspondence course

"It's my authority and by golly I'm gonna appeal to it!"

I do not recognize Berklee's definition (or maybe it's just your interpretation of their definition).

Here's some NOTmusic written by Claude Debussy:

 

[SuperFreq]

Carol's right on the money. To those who are confused about her reasons, don't worry it was never properly explained and there are a lot of incorrect assumptions, but I'll try to sum it up.

Imagine you're the left fielder on a baseball team that wins the world series. Then MLB picks you, and you alone, to accept the ring, give a speech and get your name, and your name alone, engraved on the wall. Meanwhile your teammates aren't even allowed inside the building. Get it now?

Carol is rightly trying to draw attention to the fact that there were hundreds of studio musicians working as a team, so it's an insult to the entire team if 1 person is singled out to get their name, and their name alone, chosen as the 1 inductee.

As for her gripe about being called "the wrecking crew", that has nothing to do with her gripe with the RnRHoF. She just happened to vent about it in her facebook post, and that's what everyone descended on as her reason for snubbing the award. But no, that's just a long standing sore wound that's been poked by the sudden media attention. But make no mistake, she turned down the award because it would've been an insult to all her teammates if she alone took the trophy home.

Edited July 5 by SuperFreq

[Starship Krupa]

On 7/5/2025 at 12:12 PM, SuperFreq said:

Imagine you're the left fielder on a baseball team that wins the world series. Then MLB picks you, and you alone, to accept the ring, give a speech and get your name, and your name alone, engraved on the wall.

Imagine you were a utility infielder for 2 different teams throughout the 70's. In the 2020's, the Baseball Hall of Fame picks you, and you alone from the teams you played for to be inducted.

Well, yeah, that's how the Baseball Hall of Fame works. It recognizes the achievements of individual players.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame does too, except it expands on this to also allow for people to be inducted in small groups when their achievements were known by the name of the group.

Ms. Kaye is being recognized for her individual achievements, something she's never had trouble with promoting in interviews. I have seen other session players of the era point out that Carol Kaye wasn't the only session bassist in Los Angeles in the 60's (of course they all seem to accuse each other of claiming gigs they didn't actually play on).

What would she propose? How should the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame recognize the achievements of deliberately anonymous session musicians? It's not the Hall of Skilled Performances That Contributed to Others' Success in a Variety of Musical Genres.

Carol Kaye is as well-known as she is partly because she has actively built her own brand over the years. More power to her, she's a role model for female musicians and a symbol for the contributions of session players. She's sold a few method books too. But....quick, without the help of Google, name a single person other than actual band members who played bass on a Beach Boys recording. I'm a pretty big Beach Boys fan and I can't think of one name. Glen Campbell went out on the road with them on bass, but I don't recall if he also played bass on any of the records.

People who care about fame start bands or solo acts. Session players make a living from playing music without the part where you have to ride around on buses without going home for weeks or months at a time, or answer the same 5 interview questions over and over, or get approached by fans and media when you'd prefer to just be going about your normal business, or have your personal life examined by a bunch of strangers.

[Notes_Norton]

Other than food for this conversation, it really makes no difference to me. I don't care or give any credence to who the Hall of Fame pick or snubs, and who decides to decline.

Industry giving awards to themselves are covert advertisements and/or popularity contests in the academy. IMO, they are for the fans, and not for serious professionals. 

Ms. Kaye is a good bass player and guitar player, and I like some of her work, and what I don't care for is only a reflection of my personal taste.

[pedwal wally wally wha]

They could've inducted the whole wrecking crew, they do whole bands 

[SuperFreq]

24 minutes ago, pedwal wally wally wha said:

They could've inducted the whole wrecking crew, they do whole bands 

Bingo. That's what she's saying. But nobody gets it. "The wrecking crew" was essentially a band. Carol's best work was as part of the band.

If my baseball analogy above was too tricky, then let's cut to the chase. This is like inducting Paul while ignoring the Beatles.

And if Carol herself, the award winner, doesn't like it then who are we, or anyone, to shove it on her?

Edited July 10 by SuperFreq

[craigb]

1 hour ago, SuperFreq said:

This is like inducting Paul while ignoring the Beatles.

But, which Paul? 🤔

 

😜

[pedwal wally wally wha]

https://player.vimeo.com/video/273978693

[Notes_Norton]

On 7/10/2025 at 11:18 AM, pedwal wally wally wha said:

They could've inducted the whole wrecking crew, they do whole bands 

Well, actually there were dozens of them. It depended on who was available. 

 

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrecking_Crew_(music)

[SuperFreq]

On 7/10/2025 at 12:43 PM, craigb said:

But, which Paul? 🤔

 

😜

First replacement, Billy Shears of course 😉

13 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Well, actually there were dozens of them. It depended on who was available. 

 

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrecking_Crew_(music)

Yup, I guess that's the problem. They couldn't induct them all so they focused on 1 and happened to pick Carol.

Total assumption here: I think they singled out Carol because she's a woman, and recently the RnRHoF has been (rightly) called out for its lopsided male selections.

So in the last 10 years they've been scrambling to retcon their image by going back and inducting women who should've been inducted decades ago like Nina Simone in 2018, Stevie Nicks in 2019, Pat Benatar (they waited til 2022??), etc. On paper, Carol was a good pick, but alas they chose.... poorly 😅

[Starship Krupa]

On 7/10/2025 at 8:42 AM, SuperFreq said:

"The wrecking crew" was essentially a band.

No it wasn't, unless you have an unusual notion of what constitutes a "band."

It's a term that has been retroactively applied to a bunch of people who were active and in demand in a segment of the music industry around the same time. Most of whom dislike the term. They weren't all managed by the same person(s), they didn't get calls as a group.

The Hall of Fame selected Ms. Kaye because her induction was likely to result in the most people visiting their museum/watching the induction ceremony broadcast. Same criterion they use for all inductees.

She's a legit excellent player who's built her own brand. She's a woman, so, bonus. Also, still alive, which is becoming more unusual among 1960's session players.

Fun fact: Carol isn't the first "member" of the "Wrecking Crew" to be inducted. In 2000, they added a category for "sidemen" and inducted Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer (also Scotty Moore, who contended that he and Bill Black and D.J. Fontana should have been inducted along with Elvis Presley in 1986).

She's objecting to a practice that started 25 years ago and has already included people she played dates with, so....is she pissed because more "Wrecking Crew" people aren't being inducted, or is she pissed because it's taken them 25 years to induct her?

Or is she a grumpy old lady who's losing her marbles?😄 The more I read, the more I'm leaning toward the grumpy/marbles explanation.

[Notes_Norton]

The way I was brought up by my parents is this: If someone gives you a complement, say “Thank you.” Whether you think it's deserved or not, or even if you think they are saying it sarcastically

But that's just me.